Socialism Sucks

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Post by Adit Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:16 pm

As some one who is living in a state with socialist economy and under a province that is ruled by democratically elected communists i declare socialism as an evil economic system from which the west should stay clear off.


All the moral righteousness of socialism is just that in practice it is poverty and destruction and migration. I see a lot of peeps in west romanticizing about it. It is a trap and once you are in that trap it is not easy to recover.
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Post by Myesyats Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:39 pm

I also live in a state... a state of despair

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Post by El Gunner Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:07 pm

@Adit wrote:As some one who is living in a state with socialist economy and under a province that is ruled by democratically elected communists i declare socialism as an evil economic system from which the west should stay clear off.


All the moral righteousness of socialism is just that in practice it is poverty and destruction and migration. I see a lot of peeps in west romanticizing about it. It is a trap and once you are in that trap it is not easy to recover.

then change the thread title to "Socialism done wrong sucks"
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Post by CBarca Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:12 pm

EG is on trigger alert rn
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Post by Pedram Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:31 pm

Isn't India basically being run by a right-wing populist / Hindu nationalist? where the socialist part comes from?
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Post by El Gunner Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:39 pm

@CBarca wrote:EG is on trigger alert rn

im just being real and honest as always
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Post by McLewis Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:59 pm

As one of those western romanticizers, I'm curious about this. Can you expand on why exactly socialism is so bad in your country?

Can you provide specific examples of its failures?
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:16 pm

@Pedram wrote:Isn't India basically being run by a right-wing populist/ Hindu nationalist? where the socialist part comes from?


India has been a highly protectionist country for ages now. And while Modi is nationalist/populist, he's is no rush to embrace the free market from what I've read over the years (which admittedly ain't much).
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Post by Pedram Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:30 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Pedram wrote:Isn't India basically being run by a right-wing populist/ Hindu nationalist? where the socialist part comes from?


India has been a highly protectionist country for ages now. And while Modi is nationalist/populist, he's is no rush to embrace the free market from what I've read over the years (which admittedly ain't much).


His Wikipedia page lists neoliberalism as the ideology of his party, that's like the total opposite of Socialism.

Either India is totally decentralized and is ruled differently state by state or our friend Adit has a warped view on Socialism.
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Post by Myesyats Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:53 pm

I think every system sucks unless it's heavily regulated. No idea how anything works in India, though. I suspect there's a lot of corruption which also doesnt help

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Post by Adit Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:05 pm

@El Gunner wrote:
@Adit wrote:As some one who is living in a state with socialist economy and under a province that is ruled by democratically elected communists i declare socialism as an evil economic system from which the west should stay clear off.


All the moral righteousness of socialism is just that in practice it is poverty and destruction and migration. I see a lot of peeps in west romanticizing about it. It is a trap and once you are in that trap it is not easy to recover.

then change the thread title to "Socialism done wrong sucks"


Socialism by design is mediocrity. It lacks demand estimation , it lacks incentive for innovation , lacks competition hence lacks number of firms , lacks job creation , lacks wealth creation .

All by design . I am by now master at finding good and bad of socialism after living in one for long time.
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Post by Adit Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:12 pm

@Pedram wrote:

His Wikipedia page lists neoliberalism as the ideology of his party, that's like the total opposite of Socialism.

Either India is totally decentralized and is ruled differently state by state or our friend Adit has a warped view on Socialism.


All our Parties are Socialists . We followed Fabian socialism until 91 and ran into deb trap. As usual in socialism you eventually run out of other people's money.

We then out of pressure from IMF started opening up the economy from the infamous licence raj but it was restricted mainly to service sector and knowledge economy.

You see india is famous for engineers , IT and youtube teacher ..Exactly because service sector was deregulated and embraced capitalism.

Manufacturing and agriculture is still highly socialisst controlled in India and hence our economy is still largely socialist .

Check the economic freedom ranking and ease of doing business ranking to understand the comparison with other nations .

Modi is actually populist and hence he actually likes the government mechanism and spending the most . He even though declared neo liberalism as a policy in 2021 , in the last 6 years he had set the socialist level back to 1991.

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Post by Adit Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:34 pm

@McLewis wrote:As one of those western romanticizers, I'm curious about this. Can you expand on why exactly socialism is so bad in your country?

Can you provide specific examples of its failures?


We followed USSR model planned economy until 91 with some exceptions such as automobile and some other manufacturing industries. It was a disaster. The infamous license raj meant that govt decided how much to be produced by even the private firms. The govt employees and politicians were kings and used to amass illegal wealth due to the disproportionate power they hold on economic decision making.

One problem of socialism is the govt sector gets lazy very soon . They get timely paycheck , timely promotion and there is no mechanism to evaluate their unique contribution. Everything is seniority based automatic promotions. I waited for 5 years for a telephone connection . Only after bribing the line man I got the connection even then.

Second issue is over powering of trade unions and unfair demands by them backed by political parties. This is a deadly combination. My state current ruling party marched against computers in my state because apparently it would take away jobs. In the end we are the only southern state without a large IT industry despite the superior knowledge economy ready workforce.

Socialism kills jobs by monopoly of govt. When you have just one firm which is providing service to the population say one state owned telephone company it not only becomes lazy in quality of service but also does not need much workers. Socialism kills jobs. Even the worker only co operate model kills jobs. Why would worker co ops hire when they are splitting profit . Adding a co founder is a big decision , it is a profit split decision and hence even worker co ops would think 100 times before they hire a worker and they would rather automate to improve the profits of existing employees. So even that worker co ops utopian model is anti employment generation .


Lastly socialist model undermines individual liberty . It normalised taking away your freedom . In india you can be jailed for a speech . If the state wants it is easy to lock you up for 20 years and delay trials .

You can't have social freedom with out economic freedom.

You can't have economic freedom with out social freedom.

Social , economic and political freedoms are highly interconnected and if you take away one the other two will get affected.
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Post by Babun Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:05 pm

@Adit wrote:As some one who is living in a state with  socialist economy and under a province that is ruled by democratically elected communists i declare socialism as an evil economic system from which the west should stay clear off.
Yeah, socialism allows the lazy, corrupt ones to milk the productive members of the society until the well runs dry. Some "socialistic" elements are necessary though. Free public school or a basic healthcare is regarded as socialistic luxuries in the US for example. They should be in place.

@Adit wrote:
All the moral righteousness of socialism is just that in practice it is poverty and destruction and migration. I see a lot of peeps in west romanticizing about it. It is a trap and once you are in that trap it is not easy to recover.

You're mixing up an economical system with other topics (migration). One has little to do with the other, it's just right now leftwing politicians would try to include anyone to get the voting their way, so they try to appease to all groups including migrants, LGBT+, ethnical, sociocultural minorities etc.
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Post by El Gunner Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:53 pm

@Adit wrote:
@McLewis wrote:As one of those western romanticizers, I'm curious about this. Can you expand on why exactly socialism is so bad in your country?

Can you provide specific examples of its failures?


We followed USSR model planned economy until 91 with some exceptions such as automobile and some other manufacturing industries. It was a disaster. The infamous license raj meant that govt decided how much to be produced by even the private firms. The govt employees and politicians were kings and used to amass illegal wealth due to the disproportionate power they hold on economic decision making.

One problem of socialism is the govt sector gets lazy very soon . They get timely paycheck , timely promotion and there is no mechanism to evaluate their unique contribution. Everything is seniority based automatic promotions. I waited for 5 years for a telephone connection . Only after bribing the line man I got the connection even then.

Second issue is over powering of trade unions and unfair demands by them backed by political parties. This is a deadly combination. My state current ruling party marched against computers in my state because apparently it would take away jobs. In the end we are the only southern state without a large IT industry despite the superior knowledge economy ready workforce.

Socialism kills jobs by monopoly of govt. When you have just one firm which is providing service to the population say one state owned telephone company it not only becomes lazy in quality of service but also does not need much workers.  Socialism kills jobs. Even the worker only co operate model kills jobs. Why would worker co ops hire when they are splitting profit . Adding a co founder is a big decision , it is a profit split decision and hence even worker co ops would think 100 times before they hire a worker and they would rather automate to improve the profits of existing employees. So even that worker co ops utopian model is anti employment generation .


Lastly socialist model undermines individual liberty . It normalised taking away your freedom . In india you can be jailed for a speech . If the state wants it is easy to lock you up for 20 years and delay trials .

You can't have social freedom with out economic freedom.

You can't have economic freedom with out social freedom.

Social , economic and political freedoms are highly interconnected and if you take away one the other two will get affected.

most of what you described here is fascism and not socialism.

if your government owns your means of production and distribution, that's not socialism
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Post by CBarca Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:59 pm

Still waiting on a socialist or communist country to be have happy citizens who don't live under a strict antidemocratic authoritarian rule, as well as massive inefficiencies in the market.

But I'm admittedly not the most well read on this issue. If anyone has any they can point out, could you let me know?
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Post by rincon Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:19 pm

@CBarca wrote:Still waiting on a socialist or communist country to be have happy citizens who don't live under a strict antidemocratic authoritarian rule, as well as massive inefficiencies in the market.

But I'm admittedly not the most well read on this issue. If anyone has any they can point out, could you let me know?

No one can point that out to you.

It's a never ending myth, "that's just socialism done wrong". It will always be "done wrong", it cant work by itself. As babun said, you just need some elements of it and to apply them to a working system.

I am also from a "socialist" country. Since the regime started Venezuela has had the worst period in out history. 21 years of misery. @Adit's post applies to us word by word. Sure it was once again "done wrong", can be never be "done right" though.
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Post by Myesyats Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:42 pm

Damn for some reason I kinda expected gl to be more pro-socialist.

What about democratic socialism in Denmark and how does it differ from, for example, Venezuela?

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:42 pm

Denmark isn't socialist
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Post by El Gunner Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:47 pm

you can't trash-talk something that is actually not the something the trash-talking is trying to trash-talk

i empathise with your disdain towards your governments maltreatment of its resources and its people, we all experience that regardless of what "governmental label" we're under. But don't misdirect that disdain towards a larger ideology just because your government attaches that label to itself and then shits the bed which it will inevitably do.
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Post by Myesyats Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:47 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:Denmark isn't socialist

According to wikipedia it is. Is aunt wiki lying to me?

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Post by Adit Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:26 am

@Myesyats wrote:Damn for some reason I kinda expected gl to be more pro-socialist.

What about democratic socialism in Denmark and how does it differ from, for example, Venezuela?


Social Democracy and Democratic socialism are different.

Having a capitalist wealth creation and basic welfare through taxation does not shift the macro economy to socialism . It does impact the market but in very few industries
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:37 am

@Myesyats wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:Denmark isn't socialist

According to wikipedia it is. Is aunt wiki lying to me?


Kind of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

The Nordic model comprises the economic and social policies as well as typical cultural practices common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden).[1] This includes a comprehensive welfare state and multi-level collective bargaining[2] based on the economic foundations of free market capitalism,[3][4][5] with a high percentage of the workforce unionized and a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).[6]

Heritage Foundation (ie super libertarian) economic freedom rankings:

10. Denmark
11. Iceland
17. Finalnd
21. Sweden
28. Norway

Actual socialist countries:
176. Cuba
177. Venezuela
178. North Korea

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

These are based on things like Rule of Law, Govt Size, Regulatory Efficiency & Open Markets, ie things neoliberals care deeply about, and the nordic countries all excel in it.
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Post by Adit Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:49 am

@Babun wrote:
@Adit wrote:As some one who is living in a state with  socialist economy and under a province that is ruled by democratically elected communists i declare socialism as an evil economic system from which the west should stay clear off.
Yeah, socialism allows the lazy, corrupt ones to milk the productive members of the society until the well runs dry. Some "socialistic" elements are necessary though. Free public school or a basic healthcare is regarded as socialistic luxuries in the US for example. They should be in place.

@Adit wrote:
All the moral righteousness of socialism is just that in practice it is poverty and destruction and migration. I see a lot of peeps in west romanticizing about it. It is a trap and once you are in that trap it is not easy to recover.

You're mixing up an economical system with other topics (migration). One has little to do with the other, it's just right now leftwing politicians would try to include anyone to get the voting their way, so they try to appease to all groups including migrants, LGBT+, ethnical, sociocultural minorities etc.


Indeed having few socialist welfare measures does not impact the macro economic structure hence most of the European models works for now. US is creating enough wealth through capitalism for them to afford few welfare measures but government spending in those sectors also have negative points.


For example the US is leaders in innovation in drugs, Medical research and top class hospitals only because their health industry is free market. If govt start providing free healthcare the innovative mechanism goes away.

The trade off is having basic healthcare for all Vs innovation through competition.


The stetemen that migration is not linked to economic system is really off. Large scale migrations are mainly economic migrants. My own state witnessed half its population move to middle East and other cities due to the communists destroying the economy.

East Germany and the Berlin wall destruction was kind of economics too. People got tired off the socialist experiments.

The socialist sympathisers including El Gunner should come live in a socialist state instead of glorifying it from probably a market economy.

It is so easy to live in capitalism and glorify socialism.
Why? Because socialism is morally right. Equality is morally right.The best defense of socialism isn't that it works or that they have developed a model that will work but that it is the morally right thing to do.

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Post by Adit Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:55 am

Also Marxism is a pseudo science. The basics of Marxism lies in dilectic materialism which is a pseudo science. According to dilectics Einstein's theory of relativity is a bourgeois idea. Black hole does not exist due to not obeying dialectical materialism and many more.
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