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Post by Babun Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:11 am

Anarchy ( Definition ) leads to the rule of the strong over the weak at first because there is no controlling instance, then to tribalism due to the stronger groups organizing themselves, then at some point a type of dictatorship is established (king or ruler, call how you like) which holds all of the power and decision making (Separation of Powers).
So how is it more desirable than a democracy? Even the ancient homo sapiens lived in tribal societies.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:28 pm

that's why you get lots of anarcho-socialists/communists who advocate for something close to tribalism in the old ages but with fundamental communist/Marxist principles relating to worker production, ownership and the market/trade

you also get anarchists who believe there's no escaping/ridding of the system so to hell with it, they'll do whatever they want, and you also get those which live by this (me included):

https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/anarch10.jpg
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:57 pm

@Babun wrote:Anarchy ( Definition ) leads to the rule of the strong over the weak at first because there is no controlling instance, then to tribalism due to the stronger groups organizing themselves, then at some point a type of dictatorship is established (king or ruler, call how you like) which holds all of the power and decision making (Separation of Powers).
So how is it more desirable than a democracy? Even the ancient homo sapiens lived in tribal societies.


Because you've misunderstood what anarchists want; I've never actually seen or heard someone advertise actual primal anarchy, and call themselves an anarchist. Anarchists are adherents to the socio-political philosophy of Anarchism. Which is not an utter absence of order, but rather a proposed non-hierarchical order. Whether that's feasible is another discussion, but anarchists are, at least, not proposing what you (seem to) think they are proposing.
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Post by Babun Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:05 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:
@Babun wrote:Anarchy ( Definition ) leads to the rule of the strong over the weak at first because there is no controlling instance, then to tribalism due to the stronger groups organizing themselves, then at some point a type of dictatorship is established (king or ruler, call how you like) which holds all of the power and decision making (Separation of Powers).
So how is it more desirable than a democracy? Even the ancient homo sapiens lived in tribal societies.
Which is not an utter absence of order, but rather a proposed non-hierarchical order. Whether that's feasible is another discussion, but anarchists are, at least, not proposing what you (seem to) think they are proposing.

With no instance to control the absense of hierachical order their wish is no different than the primal anarchy.
@El Gunner wrote:that's why you get lots of anarcho-socialists/communists who advocate for something close to tribalism in the old ages but with fundamental communist/Marxist principles relating to worker production, ownership and the market/trade

you also get anarchists who believe there's no escaping/ridding of the system so to hell with it, they'll do whatever they want, and you also get those which live by this (me included):

https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/anarch10.jpg

I see so the new anarchy movement is no different from a pseudo neo altruism with freedom without borders aspect. Very romantic if you ask me but not feasible Very Happy
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:11 pm

@Babun wrote:With no instance to control the absense of hierachical order their wish is no different than the primal anarchy.

See, this is supposed to be your opinion in this discussion, not the end of the discussion.


@El Gunner wrote:that's why you get lots of anarcho-socialists/communists who advocate for something close to tribalism in the old ages but with fundamental communist/Marxist principles relating to worker production, ownership and the market/trade

you also get anarchists who believe there's no escaping/ridding of the system so to hell with it, they'll do whatever they want, and you also get those which live by this (me included):

https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/anarch10.jpg

I see so the new anarchy movement is no different from a pseudo neo altruism with freedom without borders aspect. Very romantic if you ask me but not feasible Very Happy[/quote]

Same as above, you're not entirely wrong, but that's where you disagree with Anarchists. At least you can now agree that they mean well.
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Post by Babun Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:18 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:
@Babun wrote:With no instance to control the absense of hierachical order their wish is no different than the primal anarchy.

See, this is supposed to be your opinion in this discussion, not the end of the discussion.


@El Gunner wrote:that's why you get lots of anarcho-socialists/communists who advocate for something close to tribalism in the old ages but with fundamental communist/Marxist principles relating to worker production, ownership and the market/trade

you also get anarchists who believe there's no escaping/ridding of the system so to hell with it, they'll do whatever they want, and you also get those which live by this (me included):

https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/anarch10.jpg

I see so the new anarchy movement is no different from a pseudo neo altruism with freedom without borders aspect. Very romantic if you ask me but not feasible Very Happy


Same as above, you're not entirely wrong, but that's where you disagree with Anarchists. At least you can now agree that they mean well.[/quote]
I was just trying to understand the pull behind the idea because from what I know from loooong ago anarchy was just horrible. Now, I get the romantic idea behind the movement. I also see where it comes from, probably.
Open discussion:
Perhaps, people are fed up with the way the world became super competitive after the globalization and the drive behind the unlimited growth (current problem) so they look back at the time living was simpler and romantize the time as something positive like back to the routs.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:16 pm

super-competitiveness is least of the problem of today's world

it's the inhumanity, the corruption, the robotic grind, and the insane wealth gap and poverty
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Post by Babun Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:59 pm

@El Gunner wrote:super-competitiveness is least of the problem of today's world

it's the inhumanity, the corruption, the robotic grind, and the insane wealth gap and poverty

I get where you guys come from. The question is how is anarchism going to better the situation long term?
I'm quite familiar with history, the worst point was achieved during the middle ages, one could have been killed for looking wrongly at someone or for no reason at all. Average Joe today lives much better than in the past. I would argue with the world population we have right now if you distribute wealth broader goods consumption would go through the roof = destruction of mother earth. Asian countries with huge population strive for the same living standards as Americans and Europeans who have been wasting resources left and right.
I'd say overpopulation is the real problem, the elephant in the room no one likes to talk about, especially the politicians. The best way to combat overpopulation as of now has been...........











education Laughing


Last edited by Babun on Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Myesyats Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:36 pm

@Babun wrote:The best way to combat overpopulation as of now has been...........











education Laughing

or randomly sinking crew ships

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Post by El Gunner Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:36 pm

overpopulation is just another political ruse/ploy
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Post by Babun Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:47 pm

@Myesyats wrote:
@Babun wrote:The best way to combat overpopulation as of now has been...........











education Laughing

or randomly sinking crew ships

You'd need quite a lot of them Laughing
@El Gunner wrote:overpopulation is just another political ruse/ploy

A political ploy no politician talks about? You do know most of the capitalist nations like overpopulation because they get more consuments to consume goods they don't really need. They regard to them as markets Laughing
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Post by El Gunner Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:52 pm

they don't like "overpopulation" they like their markets and keeping those markets in its constant economical state
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Post by Nishankly Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:48 pm

@El Gunner wrote:overpopulation is just another political ruse/ploy


India rn

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Post by Babun Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:39 am

@El Gunner wrote:they don't like "overpopulation" they like their markets and keeping those markets in its constant economical state

Where do you reside?


Am I seeing things or are all the people in the video real? Very Happy
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Post by El Gunner Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:01 pm

yea just because India and China have been struggling with mass population for years the entire world is overpopulated Rolling Eyes

there's hectares and hectares of free land all over the world, but the elite stays eliting and the masses stay dumbing
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Post by Nishankly Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:02 pm

Well even with India having that population, I think the argument should be more as Population density. That gives you the clearer picture, India ranks less than Netherlands and around equal to Belgium in that stance.

Don't know where this thread is going, just came in to address overpopulation. Carry on.
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Post by rincon Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:07 pm

Now overpopulation too Laughing

Everything is a conspiracy to ElG
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Post by Babun Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:44 pm

@El Gunner wrote:yea just because India and China have been struggling with mass population for years the entire world is overpopulated Rolling Eyes

there's hectares and hectares of free land all over the world, but the elite stays eliting and the masses stay dumbing

Don't tell me you're a flat earther..
What kind of living standard would you like for yourself in your perfect world? Give real examples please.
@Nishankly wrote:Well even with India having that population, I think the argument should be more as Population density. That gives you the clearer picture, India ranks less than Netherlands and around equal to Belgium in that stance.

Don't know where this thread is going, just came in to address overpopulation. Carry on.

The density is higher where no deserts/wastelands or mountains are present and water is plentiful. If you'd subtract those areas from India the population density would be pretty damn high.
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Post by Myesyats Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:34 pm

@El Gunner wrote:
there's hectares and hectares of free land all over the world

Yes especially in the Sahara or the Siberia Laughing

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Post by El Gunner Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:41 pm

i won't bother continue responding when assumptions about me has clearly already been decided on in this argument
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Post by Myesyats Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:01 am

Sir David Attenborough: If we do not control population, the natural world will


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-24144593
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10316271/Sir-David-Attenborough-If-we-do-not-control-population-the-natural-world-will.html

If you dont listen to Sir Attenborough, theres no help.

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Post by Babun Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:51 am

@El Gunner wrote:i won't bother continue responding when assumptions about me has clearly already been decided on in this argument

No assumptions, I'm just asking. What living standard do you strive for, seriously? Fresh water, a room, an apartment, a house? Hot water? A toilette?
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