The Lionel Messi Appreciation Thread & Fan Club IV

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Post by Arquitecto Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:34 pm

I am more surprised Harmonica doesn't now revere CR as being his rival for as long as he has given now they openly gush for another, the two rivals and look back at what they have had for well over a decade. I'd expect him shitting on the up & coming Messi hopefuls rather than someone who's competed with his legacy for this long and still doing so at 38

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Post by Harmonica Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:01 pm

Cronaldo fanboys still overrating him like +50%. Rolling Eyes Cronaldo never was at Messi's level, or the difference between him and Messi was bigger than Cronaldo and the next best one. Just google whoscored ratings, which are the closest of any objective relativity. The imaginary rivalry was invented by media to sell their content. If you google today's yahoo news, they are already having titles like Mbapper and Hloland can have better careers than Messi and Cronaldo lmao. Even though none of them have been even close of Messi, at the same age he was.

@36 whoscored league rating

8.28 Messi
7.61 Cronaldo

@25 whoscored league rating

8.88 Messi
8.54 Cronaldo
7.98 Mbappe

@23 whoscored league rating

8.67 Messi
8.04 Mbappe
7.53 Hlaaland
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Post by El Gunner Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:53 pm

Arquitecto wrote:I am more surprised Harmonica doesn't now revere CR as being his rival for as long as he has given now they openly gush for another, the two rivals and look back at what they have had for well over a decade. I'd expect him shitting on the up & coming Messi hopefuls rather than someone who's competed with his legacy for this long and still doing so at 38

media rivals at best
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Post by Vibe Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:57 pm

Harmonica going for straws, Messi legacy is in danger, he signed off too early.

Ronaldo fighting back :bow: Man is truly relentless.
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Post by Pedram Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:00 pm

Vibe wrote:Goal.com reader list rofl

Literally the people who think Neymar is Nerman.

Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:22 pm

Match magazine with PL bias

100. Yamine Yamal
99. Emi Martinez
98. Douglas Luiz
97. Anthony Gordon
96. Trossard
95. Mbuemo
94. Moussa Diaby
93. Callum Wilson
92. Kubo
91. Kudus
90. Hojlund
89. Ward-Prowse
88. Doku
87. Isak
86. Gabriel Jesus
85. Guirassy
84. Jarrod Bowen
83. Mahrez
82. Upamecano
81. Lukaku
80. Cristiano Ronaldo
79. Son
78. Ollie Watkins
77. Wirtz
76. Tonali
75. Sane
74. Cristian Romero
73. Xavi Simons
72. Alexis Mac Allister
71. Akanji
70. Bastoni
69. Casemiro
68. Van Dijk
67. Rudiger
66. Kimmich
65. Santiago Gimenez
64. Alexander-Arnold
63. Xhaka
62. Frenkie de Jong
61. Dybala
60. Foden
59. Marquinhos
58. Trippier
57. Alisson
56. Rodrygo
55. Walker
54. Mitoma
53. Szoboszlai
52. Theo Hernandez
51. Kolo-Muani
50. Maignan
49. Enzo Fernandez
48. Gvardiol
47. Alejandro Balde
46. Onana
45. Camavinga
44. Bruno Guimaraes
43. Eder Militao
42. Rafael Leao
41. Rashford
40. Maddison
39. Saliba
38. Tchouameni
37. Martinelli
36. Pedri
35. Courtois
34. Fede Valverde
33. Araujo
32. Modric
31. Bruno Fernandes
30. Julian Alvarez
29. Ederson
28. Barella
27. Grealish
26. Gavi
25. Stones
24. Rice
23. Kim Min-Jae
22. Benzema
21. Bernardo Silva
20. Musiala
19. Ruben Dias
18. Lewandowski
17. Kvaratskhelia
16. Saka
15. Griezmann
14. Ter Stegen
13. Odegaard
12. Salah
11. Lautaro Martinez
10. Osimhen
9. Gundogan
8. Vinicius
7. Bellingham
6. Rodri
5. De Bruyne
4. Kane
3. Mbappe
2. Messi
1. Haaland
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Post by Vibe Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:29 pm

You remind me of those women from the 70's that followed that magazine diet of sugar and cigarettes then got diabetes and lung cancer.
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Post by titosantill Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:53 pm

mbappe in his
Harmonica wrote: If you google today's yahoo news, they are already having titles like Mbapper and Hloland can have better careers than Messi and Cronaldo lmao. Even though none of them have been even close of Messi, at the same age he was.

I'm not sure i get this. i think mbappe's first 3 seasons for sure were better than messi's first 3. And even after that, there's room for debate between those two. He hasn't done what messi did in the champions league, and as a matter of fact, mbappe has had some very pathetic European nights. But then again, messi had some forgettable nights with Argentina for the longest. Messi can dribble a ton better than him. Besides that, mbappe can definitely make a case. At this age, messi wasn't doing for Argentina what mbappe did for France i don't think.
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Post by Arquitecto Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:00 am

titosantill wrote:mbappe in his
Harmonica wrote: If you google today's yahoo news, they are already having titles like Mbapper and Hloland can have better careers than Messi and Cronaldo lmao. Even though none of them have been even close of Messi, at the same age he was.

I'm not sure i get this. i think mbappe's first 3 seasons for sure were better than messi's first 3. And even after that, there's room for debate between those two. He hasn't done what messi did in the champions league, and as a matter of fact, mbappe has had some very pathetic European nights. But then again, messi had some forgettable nights with Argentina for the longest. Messi can dribble a ton better than him. Besides that, mbappe can definitely make a case. At this age, messi wasn't doing for Argentina what mbappe did for France i don't think.



It's not even close. Mbappe at 21 led them to a World Cup and last year did similar and lets not forget his legendary finals performance
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Post by Harmonica Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:15 pm

titosantill wrote:mbappe in his
Harmonica wrote: If you google today's yahoo news, they are already having titles like Mbapper and Hloland can have better careers than Messi and Cronaldo lmao. Even though none of them have been even close of Messi, at the same age he was.

I'm not sure i get this. i think mbappe's first 3 seasons for sure were better than messi's first 3. And even after that, there's room for debate between those two. He hasn't done what messi did in the champions league, and as a matter of fact, mbappe has had some very pathetic European nights. But then again, messi had some forgettable nights with Argentina for the longest. Messi can dribble a ton better than him. Besides that, mbappe can definitely make a case. At this age, messi wasn't doing for Argentina what mbappe did for France i don't think.
League is the best metric to value players as it's standardized and played through the whole year. Tournaments, especially short tournaments have too much variation to be as good method for a comparison.

Whoscored has ratings since 09-10 and that gives Messi average rating of 8,77 through 105 games at 22-25 age. Mbappe at the same age range has 7,87 average rating through 116 games. It's not even remotely at the same level, it's not even close of the level of Cronaldo. Mbappe's peak rating as of today happened 19-20 8,14 with just 20 games, and that season Neymar posted 8,58. Messi has only once been below of that rating and that was with the covid injury season @35 with PSG. Messi even @36 with PSG posted 8,28 rating which is better rating than Mbappe has ever gotten. Mbappe will never have Messi's career, because he's simply not remotely as good of a player, in any age range. That's already decided. Same applies to Hlaaland if you compare him to Cronaldo.
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Post by titosantill Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:38 pm

when you're playing birminghams osasunas fc nantes week in week out, and you have such a great squad, where your bench players will be stars on like 99 percent of the teams in the league, i'm not so sure i'm high on that metric. Mbappe (apart from his monaco stint) also falls in that same group of raping a league with minimal competition. But his play for france, even in the games where he messes up is consistent.

you dont watch him and go, am i watching two different people? and national team games, (not friendlies) but international competitions, seem to be very tight these days. even the bad teams at world cups of late can stifle an offense. i don't need whoscored to tell me anything about messi's psg stint. it was far from a success story regardless of what whoscored or statsamerica.org says.

and i maintain mbappe's first 3 years were better than messi's.....messi was a better dribbler in those years, and that's it.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:20 pm

comparing any player to Messi at any stage is ridiculous, move on pls
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Post by titosantill Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:58 am

it really isn't. they both were bit part players in their debut seasons. mbappe's second season he was it. i remember messi's first couple of seasons, i remember him sustaining injuries. if you're talking who could dribble better, i give you that. to be frank, when i think about it, not many legends had the starts to their careers as mbappe did. not messi, cristiano, henry (a bit of a late bloomer),etc...
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Post by El Gunner Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:17 am

any highly talented Brazilian really... R9, Neymar, Adriano

on Messi: it's about the sentiment... you can't compare anyone to the undisputed GOAT until he eventually somewhat comes close to reaching the heights of the GOAT, not at a particular age, but in an all-time aspect... it's that simple... Mbappe is still cannon fodder please
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Post by Harmonica Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:13 am

titosantill wrote:when you're playing birminghams osasunas fc nantes week in week out, and you have such a great squad, where your bench players will be stars on like 99 percent of the teams in the league, i'm not so sure i'm high on that metric.  Mbappe (apart from his monaco stint) also falls in that same group of raping a league with minimal competition. But his play for france, even in the games where he messes up is consistent.

you dont watch him and go, am i watching two different people? and national team games, (not friendlies) but international competitions, seem to be very tight these days. even the bad teams at world cups of late can stifle an offense. i don't need whoscored to tell me anything about messi's psg stint. it was far from a success story regardless of what whoscored or statsamerica.org says.

and i maintain mbappe's first 3 years were better than messi's.....messi was a better dribbler in those years, and that's it.
whoscored doesn't give ratings for older NT-tournaments, but sofascore does and it's the same story.

WC06 Messi@19 7,37
WC10 Messi@23 7,96

WC18 Mbappe@20 7,34
WC22 Mbappe@24 7,61

And even here Messi's quality in WC06 is undervalued a lot because he was only featured 40min per game, compared to 83min per game of Mbappe WC18.
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Post by titosantill Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:11 pm

El Gunner wrote:any highly talented Brazilian really... R9, Neymar, Adriano

on Messi: it's about the sentiment... you can't compare anyone to the undisputed GOAT until he eventually somewhat comes close to reaching the heights of the GOAT, not at a particular age, but in an all-time aspect... it's that simple... Mbappe is still cannon fodder please


it took adriano 3 or so years before he started playing well at parma. and year before he became the emperor at inter. he was 21/22. mbappe was i think 18 at monaco. And after that year had 100 plus million offer for his services. neymar and r9 are the few who i can say have had as good a start as he did. but then again, neymar's still chasing a world cup (which he'll most likely never get).

i only brought up comparisons at that age cos harm suggested it. and i'm like are we even serious? messi didnt hit the 20 goal mark in all comps till that first season with pep. mbappe did that in his first full season. obviously we know who's the greater player. but to be honest messi had a normal/standard rise to the top as a host of players. mbappe was really out the gate.

and i think if he can stay in the game long enough he has the chance to be ranked alongside or better than the messis or cristianos at least in the eyes of younger fans. haaland too, considering he's in the english market. If he can somehow translate inspiration to his national side, who knows.
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:17 pm

Bro Mbappes early performances in his career are miles better than Messi's it's not even close. How tf is this even a debate
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Post by Harmonica Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:42 pm

Ffs when did you start watching football? Messi at 18 upstaged prime Ronaldinho against Mourinhos Chelsea on a English potato field. Ground the whole Chelsea team to a pulp, never seen such power from 18 year old.

https://streamable.com/upk10
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Post by titosantill Sat Dec 30, 2023 2:27 pm

lol so that one game and i believe they got eliminated surpasses what mbappe did at the same age? i remember del horno and i think carvalho trying to maul messi, but what i remember the most from those two legs is dinho's dance shot. so its extreme to say he upstaged ronaldinho. but once again, they did get eliminated. this isn't even a debate tbh. messi was a role-player in his 1st and 2nd seasons. mbappe was a starter in his second season (Which was actually his first full season) and giving you 20 plus goals....stop this
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Post by Harmonica Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:26 pm

titosantill wrote:lol so that one game and i believe they got eliminated surpasses what mbappe did at the same age? i remember del horno and i think carvalho trying to maul messi, but what i remember the most from those two legs is dinho's dance shot. so its extreme to say he upstaged ronaldinho. but once again, they did get eliminated. this isn't even a debate tbh. messi was a role-player in his 1st and 2nd seasons. mbappe was a starter in his second season (Which was actually his first full season) and giving you 20 plus goals....stop this
Dude Barcelona won CL that year.
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:31 pm

Team accomplishments =/= Individual accomplishments.
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Post by titosantill Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:10 pm

Harmonica wrote:
titosantill wrote:lol so that one game and i believe they got eliminated surpasses what mbappe did at the same age? i remember del horno and i think carvalho trying to maul messi, but what i remember the most from those two legs is dinho's dance shot. so its extreme to say he upstaged ronaldinho. but once again, they did get eliminated. this isn't even a debate tbh. messi was a role-player in his 1st and 2nd seasons. mbappe was a starter in his second season (Which was actually his first full season) and giving you 20 plus goals....stop this
Dude Barcelona won CL that year.


oh yeah then that was the year he got injured in the second round and missed the rest of the season. you've made my point for me. and you're comparing that with mbappe playing an entire season at monaco and scoring over 20 in all comps?

now that you've mentioned it, that was ronaldinho's best season of his career. lol messi didn't outshine him in nothing, definitely not in that chelsea game. being kicked a lot does not equate to outshining another. i might actually consider watching that game back. dinho was untouchable that year....eto'o too.
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Post by Harmonica Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:25 pm

titosantill wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
titosantill wrote:lol so that one game and i believe they got eliminated surpasses what mbappe did at the same age? i remember del horno and i think carvalho trying to maul messi, but what i remember the most from those two legs is dinho's dance shot. so its extreme to say he upstaged ronaldinho. but once again, they did get eliminated. this isn't even a debate tbh. messi was a role-player in his 1st and 2nd seasons. mbappe was a starter in his second season (Which was actually his first full season) and giving you 20 plus goals....stop this
Dude Barcelona won CL that year.


oh yeah then that was the year he got injured in the second round and missed the rest of the season. you've made my point for me. and you're comparing that with mbappe playing an entire season at monaco and scoring over 20 in all comps?

now that you've mentioned it, that was ronaldinho's best season of his career. lol messi didn't outshine him in nothing, definitely not in that chelsea game. being kicked a lot does not equate to outshining another. i might actually consider watching that game back. dinho was untouchable that year....eto'o too.
20 goals doesn't really mean anything. At the time Mourinho's Chelsea was in a 65 game undefeated streak at home when Messi ran them out of Stamford Bridge. Definitely the hardest game of the season. In the return leg at home Barca managed a draw them after Messi got injured. Another Messi masterclass was against Real Madrid in the 0-3 win. Barca actually was undefeated in 24 games in the 05-06 double when Messi was on the field, lost 6 games without and again drew Real Madrid at home.

Ronaldinho accepting the Ballon d'Or that season. “This award says I’m the best player in the world, but I’m not even the best player at Barcelona. For us it is not a surprise. Since he began to come and train with us and we knew we would go down this path. Someday I will explain that I was at the birth of one of the footballing greats." Somewhat tongue in cheek, but also shows how strong Messi was already at 18.
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Post by titosantill Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:41 pm

dude we're not going to do this. i gave you a pass on the chelsea game, even though i know he didnt outshine ronaldinho, and i know what he did in that one game isn't enough to place his season side by side with mbappe's first season. but to try and stylishly use the madrid game as a masterclass? that's damn low. let me guess you're going to say eto'o's goal in that game was a messi assist (when he basically took the ball off messi).

you know what, i'm not giving you either of those games. the madrid game was all about ronaldinho. and both chelsea games dinho scores a nice solo effort in the second leg, assisted in the first leg, and was a constant nuisance against them. those two games, where messi wasn't even the best player and in a year where his season ended halfway isn't enough to compare with mbappe's monaco season (who were not favorites against psg).

if i didn't intervene you would have said messi was better than ronaldinho in that madrid game. dinho has always been a somewhat modest player, everyone knew he was the best at that time regardless of his comments. you're not gonna take away that man's ultimate season and give it to messi to fit a narrative.
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Post by Harmonica Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:03 pm

You're not making any honests arguments anyway tbh. I could've said @18 Fabinho was Mbappe's prime Ronaldinho lmao. https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/74/Tournaments/22/Seasons/6318/Stages/13768/PlayerStatistics/France-Ligue-1-2016-2017 Messi was by far the best player in Stamford Bridge. Del Horno should've have two reds, greated multiple easy chances, should've had a penalty and already almost had the patented out of box goal. On top of running the players to the ground when others were mostly afraid of the potato field. And none of that even matters, I already gave the context how good Barcelona was with Messi on the field that season.
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:28 pm

My boy tito absolutely smoked Harmonica resulting in the latter using who scored as the fall back option lol Laughing

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