UCL QF 2019/20 | Bayern Munich Vs Barcelona

FennecFox7 wrote:Ronaldo has 1/4th of the talent Messi has and using 100% of it.

Messi is using about 10% of his talent right now. If he was fit to run 90 minutes and pressed and took care of his body like Ronaldo did he would be the goat for the next 500 years

Cant agree there Z. Yes CR is a Kobe bryant the way he works hard but truth is many don't want to admit talent does overcome hard work most of the time. You can't get to where he is without his absurd talent no matter how much you work.


Disagree with the physique part since he has been taking care of himself since Pep came in and looks quite fit, Fatessi memes aside.


Some people are naturally more athletic and have a higher VO2 capacity and you as an athlete know this.

Yes if he works harder he can be better given he coasts of the ball but the talent of Messi is higher but the disparity isn't as high as we thought.


That goal of CR v Juventus with his weaker foot (lets admit he is pretty much two footed) to the overall fact that he does possess many more traits in his game beyond LM, is overlooked.


Messi generally is supported more by Neutrals over CR and we know why since he isn't a threat to their identity. CR's hate represents more in people than they would think. Most of it frivolous.

@Arquitecto, i get your point, and as a madridista i like CR's football as well. but i've always had a bit of an issue with crediting cristiano for portugal's euro success. he was the captain, and he's a great leader but i can't give him the props on that one. i agree with your general take though. and my own argument can even be criticized by people bringing up how cristiano encouraged moutinho to take a penalty. but when i think of 'leading a team to a title' , i think of that leadership being done on the pitch. and cristiano didnt play well in that tournament and barely played the final

but i agree with your overall take

Casciavit wrote:Looks like I'm going to have to take out the shovel for this one. sigh.

Messi is 3x the player Cristiano is lol.

If not for Messi we would've probably been out already Vs Napoli. But I guess he sucks because he doesn't win EVERY game by himself.

It's amazing how quickly people forget and distort reality.

Time to bury this clown so deep that he'll never post outside of the Barca section again.

alexjanosik wrote:

Problem is people like you who have their head stuck so far up Messi's ass they cant get to the root of the problem.
You see us playing 90% of the game in our half, you see our players under pressure in our half, you see defenders and midfieldwers on the back foot 90% of the game inevitably making mistakes and think its the same players fault. Then you see the guy who when he gets the ball dribbles left and make the pass to an onrushing Alba (the one trick play has been completely cut out this season, neven worked against the big boys anyway) and think said player is the only one worth salvaging. You probably think we would have lost by double digits without said player. Thats what happens when your head is stuck up said player's ass.

This guy. Oh my days. Out of all people you're coming after somebody else for bias. The biggest Suarez dick rider in the world. The guy who also doesn't defend and doesn't bust a gut the way you think he does unless you maybe fantasize of him doing so inside you. Have you ever realized why he waits for Alba or do you purposefully ignore it? You're either ignorant or choose to be blind. He waits for Alba because Barca DON'T HAVE ANY RUNNERS. Who were they fielding yesterday who could get in behind the ball? It was the same thing against Liverpool. A flat 4-4-2 where the only other attacking outlet is Suarez and although he plays because he has chemistry with Messi, these days he looks more embarrassing on the pitch than usual.

Instead ask yourself why we dont play like all other teams do. The reason we get destroyed is we dont play a modern game. And there is one and only one reason we dont play the modern game. Guardiola with his version of Total football and Klopp with his gegen pressing and both with their very high line revolutionised modern football. Within a few years, all teams with just 1 exception followed suit. No surprises to guess why we cant do the same. But yeah blaming Semedo helps lol!!!!

You don't play the way others do because your squad building is shit. It's that simple. I don't live in an imaginary world where I think if Barca benched Messi and played a 4-3-3 that everything will go back together. Since you clearly aren't aware, in football there's a thing called dynamics. Coaching dynamics and squad dynamics.

The truth is the coach can only do so much with what he has. Setien tries to instill his footballing tactics who is also someone from the Cruyff school of thought, and then you have the likes of Pique complaining about how he's making them work hard. Or you have players blatantly disrespecting his assistant, Sarabia, in the middle of the match.

You have an old core of players who have won everything, probably don't have the drive they once did, and based on the last 3 seasons have an awful mentality in the CL. It doesn't matter who you hire. If Pep or Klopp come in they will only do so if they're given the opportunity to clear out the entire squad in their shape.

I checked the reaction on Barcaforum (another place which had its head up Messi's ass) and they have finally seen the light. They Messi thread has a lot of people acknowledging him as the problem). But yeah by all means please continue.

I leave you with a quote from the great man himself.
"When you play a match, it is statistically proven that players actually have the ball 3 minutes on average … So, the most important thing is: what do you do during those 87 minutes when you do not have the ball. That is what determines wether you’re a good player or not."

I don't care about barcaforum. They're literally a meme. Everyone knows they're an overreactionary bunch.

You bringing up Messi doesn't run isn't a new thing. Anyone who's been watching him from 2012 can say the same. The fact that you seem to think if Messi wasn't playing you wouldn't get smashed is the funny part. Yes, an old, mentally damaged team that has no confidence in its coach and lacks any pace got smashed because of Messi. I don't know how someone can read that and come to the conclusion he's the reason for their L. I bet you also think that if Bayern had Messi they wouldn't have won as much because Perisic presses and Messi doesn't. I wonder what Hansi Flick would think if he read that.  

Every coach in the world would take Messi. Pep and Klopp would take him. There is only one other player in the world who plays the way he does and Messi is the more efficient version. You have someone who can alter the game with his dribbling, chance creation, and scoring. The reality is that he's the reason you guys have been able to get away with your awful squad building because he's been masking all over the cracks. You seem to think that I think Bayern would've won 11-0 if Messi wasn't playing. No, I don't think that. However, what I do know is that without Messi this version of Barca wouldn't have made the CL quarters in the first place and you wouldn't have finished second either.

This guy actually came and posted the Cruyff off the ball movement quote LOL. Yes, that applies to your average player. Don't pull that quote on me when you're dealing with someone who is a 3 in 1. Anyone who isn't living in a deluded fantasy world knows you build around someone like that.

Smart management would know how to build the team around him. He's a creator. There has been a blueprint for the way to get the best out of them for +50 YEARS. Messi's a little different in that he doesn't do much defensively, but again you can find ways to compensate for him. Have a CF who can make space for him, a winger who can run in behind, and a CM who can do the extra running on the right. At Barca, all he needed was a quality winger to replace Neymar, and a younger guy to phase out Suarez. If he had that Barca gets through against Liverpool on away goals. In a team of unathletic players, you blame the one player who can compensate for his laziness with match-winning actions, while the others can't do the same.

Neymar also plays like Messi these days. Watch the match against Atalanta. Look at the number of times he loses the ball, which was an awfully large amount, and the number of times he actually ran to win it back, which was an awfully low amount. Why doesn't a modern coach in Tuchel tell Neymar to run back? We know Neymar can. He was the one doing the dirty defensive work for the Barca frontline. Maybe it's because Tuchel realizes that Neymar has more to offer higher up the pitch. Even Klopp sometimes has Firmino covering on the RW with Salah central because he realizes Salah is a bigger threat in transition and can't defend as well.

Allegri said it best. The likes of Messi, Ronaldo, and Neymar win you CL's. Madrid and Barca are the ones that have dominated the competition in the last decade. In a game of the smallest details, the one who can pull something out of nothing with the least opportunities to do so win. The key is to put them in conditions where you can compensate for their defensive flaws, all the while bringing the best out of them offensively because that's what they're best for.

People bring up how Ronaldo succeeded with Madrid for those 3 years in a row. Does Ronaldo defend? Nope. The reason he was so instrumental is that Madrid put him in the proper conditions to succeed. He had a team filled with creators and ball-players who knew how to get the best out of him. Look at him at Juve. He doesn't have ballers who can serve tap-ins for him, and he's getting knocked out against the likes of Ajax and Lyon in the R16. With Messi, it's the opposite. He's the creator and to get the best out of him you have to give him outlets.

His ONLY outlet is Alba. He has to WAIT for Alba to get high up the pitch because there is NO ONE ELSE to stretch out the pitch. It's a fundamental squad problem. Bayern took the risk of pressing high and playing that comical high line because they knew Barca lacked any off the ball threat. A flat 4-4-2, with Sergi Roberto and Semedo doing the trademark meme 'double right back' tactic, and then you have Frenkie playing at left midfield. There's a reason almost everyone knew Barca was going to get smashed beforehand. They've played like shit all season.

Barca only had 40 points when Valverde was sacked. That was their lowest point total at that stage of the competition in more than a decade. Setien had an equal amount of games and he also finished with 42 points. Barca's performance this season is a multitude of factors. You can mostly point it out to being poor squad building which is the fault of the board. Milan was getting memed after 2007 for being a retirement home when our core players were 28-29. Barca's core is 32-33. I know Dany also said Bayern had some older core players but those guys are like 30 instead. They're also superior physically to the Barca players. You can't compare a fitness freak who doesn't get injured like Lewandowski to the likes of Pique, Busquets, Messi, and Suarez. You have to respect the passage of time. Most players call it a day by that age too. This brings me to Messi who is also 33.

Messi isn't the perfect player. Yes, he doesn't press. Yes, he's an awful captain. Yes, he's getting old. These are things everyone can admit. As I said before it isn't new information.

The problem with the Messi criticism is that people take these reasons and assume Barca loses because of him. That's some slippery slope logic.

Let's be frank here. Messi's flaws might not even make up 10% of the actual overall problems at Barcelona. It's the equivalent of blaming the condiments in your burger for your food poisoning when in reality it was the moldy bread and the undercooked meat.

Messi even at 33 still has value to add. Technically he's still amazing. I'd say he's still most people's best in the world. Has he slowed down since the 2012 or even 2015 days? Yes. That's natural though. Do I think Barca should sell him and pave way for a new era? Yes and no.

Yes, if they can actually replace him properly. Now I'm not talking about Alex's deluded fantasy world where he thinks "muh cruyff" with Griezmann and Fati playing on the wings. Let's not talk about naivety here. Let's look at what selling Messi means:

If it means selling him like Madrid did with Ronaldo not and replacing him, well Barca is going to be worse and they'll solidify themselves as the next banter club. Join the club with Milan, Arsenal, and United. I said it when Madrid sold Ronaldo that they need to find players who can replace his output. They signed Hazard. Someone who provides 15 goals instead of 50. Guess what happened next? A CB was their second top scorer.

If they sell him and they choose to rebuild their squad, well they'll have a big task on their hand. If Messi goes so will Suarez. Guys who were scoring like 70-80 goals between them over the last few seasons. What does that leave you with?

You'll have Griezmann and Dembele. Griezmann can't play in a 4-3-3. He's a 9.5. Anyone who tells you he can play as a winger is a retard. He could do the job centrally if he's surrounded by inside forwards, but will Barca have faith in him to lead the line? Truth is he's best in a front two. But oh wait, playing a front two is against Cruyff's football!!!

Dembele, on the other hand, is always injured and is a raw talent himself. I could see Griezmann doing the job in the middle if Dembele is firing and if they sign an outlet on the left. Another option is to bring Coutinho back and let him be the creator from the left. Buy an outlet on the right. Then the Griezmann problem comes up because Barca would be better off with a physical 9 if they play that way.

The squad is unbalanced. I've never seen a top team properly replace their star player with 3-4 good players. You always hear the whole "the team will be more balanced without him". Zlatan with Milan in 2012, Bale with Spurs in 2013, Suarez with Liverpool in 2014, Neymar with Barca in 2017, Ronaldo with Madrid in 2018, and I'm sure I might be forgetting others too. Guess what they all had in common? The team became worse.

With this board's record of signing players do you really have faith in them properly replacing Messi? Unless they sign Neymar, I'd say the best course of action is to keep Messi for the next two seasons. Phase-out a lot of the older guard this upcoming season. Make signing a new LW and CF your first priority. That alone will probably prevent Barca from embarrassing themself in the CL. Then in the next 4 transfer windows replace the older players with younger and athletic ones.

Ultimately it comes down to this. A complementary squad with Messi > A complimentary squad without Messi > a non-complementary squad with Messi > a non-complementary squad without Messi. Every top-level coach in the world will agree with me. Anyone who argues this is asinine. This Barca isn't a balanced team with or without Messi. That's the ultimate fact of the matter. Him pressing and defending wouldn't have changed the result. Barca would have still eaten shit because they are flawed all the way from the squad to the board itself. Messi or no Messi they still get dismantled against Bayern. It's not a Messi problem, it's a Barcelona problem.

but hey what i do i know..griezmann and fati on the wings, cruyff 4-3-3, barca lost 8-2 cuz messi doesn't press. visca catalonia. #saveusxavi.

danyjr wrote:

Casciavit wrote:Semedo had an all time bad CL performance.

Not surprised with the caricature. He thinks playing Sergi in midfield with Griezmann and 17 year old Fati starting on the wings wouldve made a positive difference. Awful poster.

alex and Franchise were some of the best posters in the Barça section during its glory days. Franchise left one day never to be seen again and alex at some point started becoming obsessive towards Messi and lost the plot completely, blaming Messi for every poor performance and wanting a return to "Cryuffism". Brah, even Pep has sold out Cruyffism and here you are blowing your horn like that. Frankly, a lot of Barcelona fans who only started watching football since Pep-era Barça can have a similar mindset.

I was there when Van Gaal and Rexach played 'Cruyffism' and they ended up getting battered and finishing 3rd or 4th in La Liga consistently behind the likes of Valencia, Mallorca and Deportivo. You know what's the common denominator between then and now? Shit management.

@_LMG_10_ Excellent post!

Don't disrespect Dani by putting him and Alex in the same sentence. Dani is arguably GL's best ever poster. Alex made some good points once upon a time but he's become a complete caricature of himself. I'd place more value on what Barcalearning has to say rather than him these days.

Noticed it's either Messi is above reproach or he is to be blamed for everything. But I'll admit, Cas did his utmost best of going down the middle.

Great post tbh.

I would absolutely not be surprised if the majority on here disagree, but Messi’s impact in decisive matches where Barca don’t look comfortable, has been quite underwhelming for quite a while now, considering his lofty standards.

5 goals against Real Betis or a spectacular freekick against Liverpool that doesn’t actually amount to anything, doesn’t change that. The suggestions that he could have possibly done so much more if he had been more fit, more motivated, or whatever it may be, doesn’t change that.

I’ll never understand why so many people feel like he has to be excused for absolutely everything. We’re not talking about Defoe here. He’s only just turned 33. I’m sure he’s got a couple of years left in his tank, and even when his agility and reflexes decline, the amount of skill and talent that he commonly gets credited for should more than compensate for decreased movement.

But his impact in matches where Barca face adversity, could be better. Being awed by silky passes and swirling dribbling runs is fun and entertaining, but unless that’s all you care about, you’d expect there to be a product at the end of it all.

Arq wrote:Messi generally is supported more by Neutrals over CR and we know why since he isn't a threat to their identity. CR's hate represents more in people than they would think. Most of it frivolous.

i don't even know how this begins to make sense?

Arq wrote:Trophies? He has 4 compared to Cristiano who has 5. In two different teams (and countries) and instrumental in all 5. Messi's 05-06 is a bare mention for obvious reasons given that stage for his career.

what?
i was talking overall titles won with their clubs

Arq wrote:For country its not even close as Messi has been highly underwhelming for Argentina and won fuck all compared to CR who lead his team to an unexpected Euro win.

this is the most stupidest argument in the debate.
As if it isn't Higuain's fault Messi doesn't have a World Cup to his name in the World Cup he was player of the tournament.

And Portugal won a Euros in which France definitely were the better, more impressive team in the tournament.

_______

All in all, i'm not really "offended" by Messi criticism. I completely agree. He is not perfect. There is no perfect footballer, and there never will be, the game is just too dynamic and requires too many skills and attributes to it. Messi is great in certain aspects. And Cristiano much better in others because of his build and athleticism. And yes he is the clutchest player in UCL history.

Yet i don't see how all of that has to detract from the fact, that Messi is quite simply, in most cases majority perceived to be the GOAT.

Thimmy wrote:I would absolutely not be surprised if the majority on here disagree, but Messi’s impact in decisive matches where Barca don’t look comfortable, has been quite underwhelming for quite a while now, considering his lofty standards.

5 goals against Real Betis or a spectacular freekick against Liverpool that doesn’t actually amount to anything, doesn’t change that. The suggestions that he could have possibly done so much more if he had been more fit, more motivated, or whatever it may be, doesn’t change that.

I’ll never understand why so many people feel like he has to be excused for absolutely everything. We’re not talking about Defoe here. He’s only just turned 33. I’m sure he’s got a couple of years left in his tank, and even when his agility and reflexes decline, the amount of skill and talent that he commonly gets credited for should more than compensate for decreased movement.

But his impact in matches where Barca face diversity, could be better. Being awed by silky passes and swirling dribbling runs is fun and entertaining, but unless that’s all you care about, you’d expect there to be a product at the end of it all.

this man has literally carried Barcelona to how many La Liga's in a row before this past season?

Since MSN broke up and Suarez declined, he simply doesnt have the tools around him to go far in the CL.

but oh, he is supposed to pump his chest out, and magically turn the game around every single time, every single match. Pls

El Gunner wrote:this man has literally carried Barcelona to how many La Liga's in a row before this past season?

Since MSN broke up and Suarez declined, he simply doesnt have the tools around him to go far in the CL.

but oh, he is supposed to pump his chest out, and magically turn the game around every single time, every single match. Pls

I have watched a lot of Barca’s matches, and it’s definitely true that he’s been decisive for you in the league, just like CR was for us. Despite all of the knee-jerk praise we get from «neutrals» and non-fans on here whenever we hit a patch of form, or showcase isolated, good-great performances, we haven’t been as consistent as Barca in La Liga for well over a decade now.

The two teams are wired differently, and that’s just how it is. I think Messi underwhelms primarily against tough opposition in the Champions League. I don’t give two shits about the GOAT shouts when Messi entertains with flashes of could’ve beens.

It’s impact that decides matches, and I’ve lost count of how many times he’s failed to turn matches that Barca should’ve won, in their favor. Again, we’re not talking about the average Joe of a player here. What is his standard?

I’ve always thought the «from another planet» or «extraterrestrial» descriptions are extraordinarily cringe, not to mention unoriginal and played out, but certain expectations are included when people suggest that someone’s «the best» at anything, and in my book, it doesn’t matter what a player is potentially capable of, as long as it doesn’t translate to success.

Sure, his team could be better. It’s not like CR7 was excused when you steamrolled us thanks to Raul Albiol being a walking brain fart, or the likes of Granero, Gago and Pedro Leon proving how much of a gap in quality there was between the two teams.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

What do you consider to be "a lot of signings"? I suppose we have ready made replacements for Messi and Busquets in Griezmann and DeJong, but surely we would still need some for Pique, Roberto, Suarez, Vidal, Rackitic, etc.

Compare our team to Bayern's. If you go man for man, there is not a sharp difference in quality. Certainly not 8-2 level. As I have been saying for the past so many years, we have a system issue caused by 1 player. Remove that player, get a good replacement and play the modern game. As in, front foot pressing, 11 players attack and 11 players defend.

As for line up,

Mats
Alba, Lenglet, Pique/Araujo, Semedo
Roberto, FDJ, Pjanic
Griez, New Signing, Fati

Puig and Vidal as backup. I really like Monchu. He can also be a good backup. Coutinho is also backup for midfield or starts depending on the opposition. Up top Fati left, Griez left and get a good striker in place of Messi. Dembele and Trincao as subs.

And relearn the Cruyff way of playing. Its going to be painful after the last few years of Messi. Its even going to look alien. But we will play much better football instead of the eyesore that we have witnessed past few years. And we wont get destroyed like we have 3 years in a row.

This team would essentially leave the defense the same (in spite of how many times it was exposed). The quality of the midfield is essentially the same. And I'm not sure who you think can fit into Messi's shoes but I'd suggest Griezmann is the best player we can get for it and instead we should be focusing on replacing Suarez.

I'd love to see Barca start playing a dynamic high-press game where eleven players attack and eleven players defend. However, I have a hard time seeing how this can be accomplished while leaving the core of the team essentially the same, even with a forward that presses up top unlike Messi. The team posted above would still get dominated by Bayern and is player-for-player inferior in almost every position. I think we need a more complete revamp.

I'd also say we had a disastrous tactical day btw, somehow we played 442 but our wide midfielders didn't cover for the fullbacks when they pushed forward at all. And in spite of playing a narrow 4 person midfield we conceded midfield control easily.

Respectfully disagree that we are man for man inferior to Bayern. Hyperbole I think. They might be superior but certainly not 8-2 better. FDJ, Roberto at DM and Pjanic with backup of Countinho, Puig, Vidal is a very respectable midfield. I dont think our defense is an issue. We have a system issue which is easily fixed. I do agree that we need a new 9. Either entice Mbappe to be the heir to Messi (we are a Nike club as opposed to Madrid so maybe there is a chance) or Haaland.

Arquitecto wrote:Its just about 4 years since I began to see CR with far more interest than Messi.


His story is far more interesting, his character, his story within the games themselves. Not to add the fact that he is a tremendous leader for both club and country. Never have I see Messi pull teams the way Cristiano does.


RG is bang on above that is is pathetic how offended people get when he is criticised. Made a victim for a Barça despite the fact that he mostly walks head down when the team is down, stark contrast to CR. Made a victim for Argentina excusing the fact that he is nowhere near what he is for country compared to Barça. Technically speaking he is the all time best player but greatest is a different term and the greatest goes to CR and easily.


Trophies? He has 4 compared to Cristiano who has 5. In two different teams (and countries) and instrumental in all 5. Messi's 05-06 is a bare mention for obvious reasons given that stage for his career.


For country its not even close as Messi has been highly underwhelming for Argentina and won fuck all compared to CR who lead his team to an unexpected Euro win.


Key moments of dazzling us does not take away from how CR has been far more instrumental to his team in the greatest competition of all time in the UCL, at a higher stage and not just group stages and not having people like Xavi, Iniesta and CO. behind him.


Messi is the better player and as Giggity above said my post history speaks for itself pre 2016 but I really am not seeing him come through in key moments for Barça and its time to stop the hilarious spiel that he "deserves" more.


Alex is spot on the fact that he has been indirectly holding the team back and more so given he is nowhere near what he was at his best.


It wasn't hard deciding who I find more accomplished and just far more interesting to follow between the two.


Messi should leave Barça unless they convince him to stay via overhaul otherwise Inter or City can be an interesting destination for him. Do it in another team for once. Cristiano will always have that over him.

Atleast someone sees the light. Unfortunately others still have their head stuck up Messi's ass and write pages full of nonsense that is not worth reading.

That was a whole lot of nothing from cas.. well to be fair some decent points.. still don’t know why he got all the upvotes.

You repeated the same things over and over and over again. I’ll just pick apart a few things from the post I noted that were, well false

Ronaldo and neymar don’t do much defensive work but they do a hell of a lot more running then Messi and their defensive work makes them look like Maldini compared to messi. In fact they actually get open for the ball or make runs, two of the most important things in football.

I’m serious, Messi literally walks the whole game.

You say Messi makes that same pass to alba because Alba is the only one making runs. Actually, griezzmann, Vidal, even semedo among others make runs. I’m not gonna even get into how much Messi ignores griezmann.

Suarez is a sack of shit now, yes agreed, and it is exposing the very lack of movement messi has himself.

Why is it required of everyone else to make runs and play around messi? Precisely enforcing what I’m saying, he can’t even do the bare minimum of off-the-ball work

You’re right, he is a hell of a player and he deserves that respect to build a team around him, but he deserves criticism for not forcing the issue and adapting to the situation, someone like Cristiano has done, and you are defending him like prime Kebab out here. Even Kebab wouldn’t have made a post that long.

You didn’t destroy or bury anyone, but there’s a select few Messi fans on this forum that will defend Messi over Barcelona so I guess that’s where you got your upvotes

I love messi the player, I really do but it’s time to dish out the fire when it needs to be dished out. At the very least you need to recognize his weaknesses

Arquitecto wrote:Trophies? He has 4 compared to Cristiano who has 5. In two different teams (and countries) and instrumental in all 5. Messi's 05-06 is a bare mention for obvious reasons given that stage for his career.


For country its not even close as Messi has been highly underwhelming for Argentina and won fuck all compared to CR who lead his team to an unexpected Euro win.

So you're only comparing CL's? What about league titles where Messi is vastly superior? Zidane himself said league titles are far more difficult and noteworthy than CL titles, but of course, you know better than Zidane.

And you're actually gonna use that Euro win? Hilarious how short people's memories are. Do you even remember that Euro Cup? It was a farcical Euros where they decided that the 3rd place team advances to the knockout phase. It promoted garbage defensive football allowing any team to advance with THREE draws in the group stage. Guess what? CR7 couldn't lead his team to a victory against the mighty Hungary, Iceland, or Austria. They finished 3rd in the group with 3 draws and won every other match in extra time or penalties, against mighty nations like Switzerland and Poland. It was BY FAR the most underwhelming victory at a major tournament for a major nation and that Portugal team was pretty stacked, as they usually are. It hardly elevates CR7's status, especially when he didn't play in the final.

And let's omit the fact that Messi took ARG to the world cup finals in 2014 (among the other Copas), winning PLAYER OF THE FUCKING TOURNAMENT and a record man-of-the-match in 4 games in that World Cup. But lets ignore that achievement because they didn't come out on top in the end.
Even a chimpanzee can see that the task at hand for Messi is FAR more difficult when it comes to international tournaments. Comparing their international careers is again like comparing apples to oranges.  You simply cannot compare them when one team is a proper European nation with proper coaching and player development, while the other is a South American country with the most corrupt FA, who do not even pay their staff during a World Cup tournament, and hire cokehead managers.

It's actually really sad, the 2nd half of Messi's career he's been plagued with corrupt and incompetent organizations running (or rather ruining) football teams. And then you want to compared Ronaldo with him as if comparing an apple to an apple, just because Ronaldo has lifted the Euros and more CL's.
Very, very shortsighted. But of course internet posters have the most shallow judgement without any real analysis or thought.

Arquitecto wrote:Key moments of dazzling us does not take away from how CR has been far more instrumental to his team in the greatest competition of all time in the UCL, at a higher stage and not just group stages and not having people like Xavi, Iniesta and CO. behind him.

Hilarious to see how people still use the debunked Xavi/Iniesta argument when it comes to Messi.    It's like claiming the earth is still flat when proven otherwise.
May I remind you how many league titles he single-handedly won for Barcelona after Xavi/Iniesta? May I remind you how many times he was the leading goalscorer and assist provider without the presence of Xavi/Iniesta? Get real man. Stop reading these stupid arguments against Messi from a textbook. I swear, it's got the same 4 arguments in there lol - 1) He hasn't won anything with Argentina 2) He hasn't proven himself in another league 3) He can't do it without Xavi/Iniesta.  4) He hasn't won the CL in 5 years.

Arquitecto wrote:Messi is the better player and as Giggity above said my post history speaks for itself pre 2016 but I really am not seeing him come through in key moments for Barça and its time to stop the hilarious spiel that he "deserves" more.

Nothing hilarious about it. He does deserve more. If you thought before you posted, you'd realize this.
He's given them 100% every match and continued to be loyal even when they shat on him and ran the organization like a bunch of clowns. He got multiple massive offers from various clubs and he continued to stay loyal. They continue to fail with transfer/youth policy and he stayed loyal. They continue to hire garbage managers and he stayed loyal. The club is in full crisis mode from top to bottom and he stayed loyal.

Arquitecto wrote:Its just about 4 years since I began to see CR with far more interest than Messi.


His story is far more interesting, his character, his story within the games themselves. Not to add the fact that he is a tremendous leader for both club and country. Never have I see Messi pull teams the way Cristiano does.

I don't find Ronaldo's story that interesting because he's a mercenary, he's not loyal to anything but himself. He's a serial winner. He wins and performs where ever he plays, but it pretty much ends there. Of course his accomplishments are historic, especially in the CL, but his teams and his way of playing weren't exactly "memorable" per se. At least when compared to the brand of football Messi and Barca played. Neutrals for example won't really remember that many specific moments or specific matches that put you in awe of Real Madrid or Ronaldo, at least compared to peak Barca and Messi.

The peak Guardiola Barca was the greatest team in history yet it also had the greatest individual player in history and somehow they made it work while playing the most beautiful football and completely dominating opposition, not just clutching victories in knockout phases of the CL like RM. Football lovers absolutely fell in love with the WAY that team and Messi played. It wasn't just about winning, but they were the only team that ever won 2 trebles.

Sure, RM and Ronaldo dominated the CL (some of it by virtue of forfeiting the league by January lol) and you can be in awe of that, but objectively their run mostly consisted of playing clutch tournament style football, staying in matches and nipping goals when it mattered. It's a completely different beast to what peak Barca was, and all I'm saying is that Messi and Barca is more memorable and interesting than anything Real Madrid or Ronaldo has done.

Of course "interesting" is subjective but when you throw in what Messi has been dealing with at international level his whole life, it really gets juicy. Being heir to Maradona and almost dragging that team and himself to God-like status in Argentina in 2014 after multiple failtures, it gets even more interesting. They saw him as the boy who became the greatest footballer but the nation lacked affection for him because he had not done what Maradona had done.

One Higuain shot in the back of the net and Messi would be revered as god in Argentina and also unprecedented and undisputed greatest player in history, but it was not to be. And it didn't end there for him, he had to keep dealing with Higuain and the most corrupt FA on the planet, year after year, coming up just short in the finals, 3 times in a row.

Then add to that the direction that Barcelona has been going, it has been mirroring Argentina's management. Barca is the new Argentina, ruining everything from top to bottom. This makes the story so fucking interesting to me, to see how it will end up, and I think people will agree that this particular story is fascinating. I GUARANTEE you when they both retire, the Messi book will be far far more interesting than the Ronaldo book.

P.S. - I'd call Messi's book - "The boy who almost became god". And Ronaldo's book "El Mercenary" lol

Arquitecto wrote:

Messi should leave Barça unless they convince him to stay via overhaul otherwise Inter or City can be an interesting destination for him. Do it in another team for once. Cristiano will always have that over him.

LOL argument #2 from the textbook.

Good god. Messi fans are insufferable. They literally worship the guy like a saint. I’m checking out

That was pretty cringe.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have a breaking revelation.

Claiming that Barca's woes come down to more than just Messi's lack of workrate means you're saying a whole lot of nothing.

The fact that Barca has an aging team where the older players don't respect the manager, aren't motivated and are awful tactically doesn't matter. Messi's workrate does.

The fact that Barca has the slowest team in Europe with no runners to add verticality doesn't matter, Messi's pass selection is the problem. Can't you guys see? When the opposition camps up in the middle because there's no quick player who can get behind the line it's Messi's fault. Vidal and Griezmann can do the job. Suarez too. He's ignoring Semedo! Positional play and profiles don't mean anything, Messi's pass selection is the problem.

Ronaldo performing because he had a team built around him doesn't matter. It's Messi's fault that he can't do everything on the ball and off the ball the way Ronaldo does. Man isn't Ronaldo so great? Messi could never.

Barca's awful transfer record in the last 6 years doesn't matter either. Messi should be able to compensate for Barca buying lost lambs. Actually, Barca should sell Messi. You know it doesn't matter that they haven't had a successful signing since Neymar left. Messi is the issue. Fati and Griezmann can do the jobs on the wings.

Truth is the only person who said a whole lot of nothing is you. Your reply to Messi having to wait for Alba is one of the worst replies to a tactical aspect I've ever seen and considering you seem to know your stuff I'm going to assume you were trolling on that one. You bringing up Messi's lack of workrate isn't new and nobody is defending it. Sorry, I live in a reality where I realize where when you have a 3 in 1 player you do what you can to comepnsate for his shortcomings.

The fact of the matter is that on Barca's list of problems, which is a long list, Messi is lower down the list than a lot of other things. Messi running off the ball wouldn't have changed the scoreline. They would've still gotten smashed. I can't believe this is being debated. Fix the other shit then start talking about Messi, not the other way around.

There's no point though. People have made up their mind that Messi deserves all the blame and taking into account the contextual nature of the issues at Barcelona doesn't mean anything. It's Messi's fault and it's just me saying a whole lot of nothing. On god I ain't never writing a detailed post on here ever again.

alexjanosik wrote:
Atleast someone sees the light. Unfortunately others still have their head stuck up Messi's ass and write pages full of nonsense that is not worth reading.

It's because you don't actually have a reply and the only person who has their head stuck up somebody's ass is you in Cruyff's. His biggest disciple has abandoned his concepts at the biggest stage. Football is a lot more complicated than quoting Cruyff's thoughts from the 80s.

Go on and field Fati and Griezmann on the wings in a 4-3-3. That will fix everything.

Clueless.

as always, i've made the best, most reasonable and impartial posts in this thread

FennecFox7 wrote:I’m not gonna even touch heavily on the CR think, I think messi and CR are closer then people think. Can messi dribble better.. sure. Does messi have more magic.. yes you could say that.

But Ronaldo has the single two most important things that messi will never have; off the ball movement and winning mentality

Messi hasn't had off the ball movement since 2010-11 season. He doesn't need that when the team is properly built around him. FFS this is a game of 11 players, each playing different roles. Each player has strengths and weaknesses and Messi was/is the GOAT without the off the ball movement. He's become more of a #10 than a #9 since around 2010 season(ish), so of course a number 10 comes towards the ball, not away from it. Basic football.

And his mentality is fine, look how many times he's dragged Barca kicking and screaming to victory when no other player has stepped up. How many more times does he need to do it? You can argue forever who has the better mentality but the fact is that Ronaldo has had better managed and well-drilled teams in the 2nd half of their careers in comparison, and so it SEEMS to you that Messi has a bad mentality but in reality Barca has been utterly dysfunctional for a while now.

Thimmy wrote:

The two teams are wired differently, and that’s just how it is. I think Messi underwhelms primarily against tough opposition in the Champions League. I don’t give two shits about the GOAT shouts when Messi entertains with flashes of could’ve beens.

It’s impact that decides matches, and I’ve lost count of how many times he’s failed to turn matches that Barca should’ve won, in their favor. Again, we’re not talking about the average Joe of a player here. What is his standard?

Really, which games SHOULD have barca won in their favor, in which Messi did not turn up? You never gave an example.

Against Bayern? You think Barca were favored in this tie? I think not. Bayern is far superior, runs way more, has a balanced and younger squad. Not even close. This was never a contest, and it showed. They scored 8. So you can't say Messi didn't show up. They scored fucking eight goals and completely dominated every single aspect of the game.

Liverpool? Again, Liverpool were far superior to Valverde's barca coming into this - it's not even close. Liverpool were the world's best team that season and the season before. Messi has no business performing as well he did in both legs, yet he did.

Roma? Ok, this one was in their favor, and they should have won. Messi ran the show in the first leg at home as he always does. 4-1 victory. Should be enough against a team like Roma. Lapses in concentration by the CB's cost them in the second leg, simple and plain. They did not expect to blow a 3 goal lead (considering how defensively sound they were under Valverde that season), so even though Messi did nothing in the 2nd leg, the plan was never to attack.

Against Atletico? That Barca team was so stale it made me wanna vomit. 80% possession and 800 passes with no runners for Messi to pass to, no one else to playmake. I remember it vividly. ZERO off the ball movement from the strikers against the most compact rigid defensive team on the planet. Great tactic. But let's blame Messi for the team's shortcomings.

You think I'm trying to make excuses for him? No, I'm simply alluding to the reality of when Barca get KO'd in the CL, it's usually a collective team effort, and has little to do with Messi. He's almost always there performing in big matches, even when his team is playing like shite. Just watch his Argentina performances to see what he does individually in a disjointed team which carries demons inside them.

LMG still talking about 2014 World Cup and that farce of a golden ball Was the best player of group stages like Honda in 2010 and Argentina's overall best player was Mascherano but of course Messi got all the MOTM awards just like he did in the next two Copas.

Keep going on and on about Higuain's miss while conveniently forgetting about Messi's Messi dragged the team and Di Maria, Higuain, Mascherano didn't do anything of course.

Dear God his fanboys are the worst. There's rational ones like Cas and then there are clowns like LMG. Was an amazing throwback to read about the corrupt Argentine FA ruining Messi's international career

Casciavit wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, I have a breaking revelation.

Claiming that Barca's woes come down to more than just Messi's lack of workrate means you're saying a whole lot of nothing.

The fact that Barca has an aging team where the older players don't respect the manager, aren't motivated and are awful tactically doesn't matter. Messi's workrate does.

The fact that Barca has the slowest team in Europe with no runners to add verticality doesn't matter, Messi's pass selection is the problem. Can't you guys see? When the opposition camps up in the middle because there's no quick player who can get behind the line it's Messi's fault. Vidal and Griezmann can do the job. Suarez too. He's ignoring Semedo! Positional play and profiles don't mean anything, Messi's pass selection is the problem.

Ronaldo performing because he had a team built around him doesn't matter. It's Messi's fault that he can't do everything on the ball and off the ball the way Ronaldo does. Man isn't Ronaldo so great? Messi could never.

Barca's awful transfer record in the last 6 years doesn't matter either. Messi should be able to compensate for Barca buying lost lambs. Actually, Barca should sell Messi. You know it doesn't matter that they haven't had a successful signing since Neymar left. Messi is the issue. Fati and Griezmann can do the jobs on the wings.

Truth is the only person who said a whole lot of nothing is you. Your reply to Messi having to wait for Alba is one of the worst replies to a tactical aspect I've ever seen and considering you seem to know your stuff I'm going to assume you were trolling on that one. You bringing up Messi's lack of workrate isn't new and nobody is defending it. Sorry, I live in a reality where I realize where when you have a 3 in 1 player you do what you can to comepnsate for his shortcomings.

The fact of the matter is that on Barca's list of problems, which is a long list, Messi is lower down the list than a lot of other things. Messi running off the ball wouldn't have changed the scoreline. They would've still gotten smashed. I can't believe this is being debated. Fix the other shit then start talking about Messi, not the other way around.

There's no point though. People have made up their mind that Messi deserves all the blame and taking into account the contextual nature of the issues at Barcelona doesn't mean anything. It's Messi's fault and it's just me saying a whole lot of nothing. On god I ain't never writing a detailed post on here ever again.

The problem with Messi is that he forces everything to revolve around him. It's near on impossible to make him just another piece of a collective. If a coach comes in and wants to build a "normal" team like any other top elite team, with 2 pacy wingers and a CF, where does Messi fit in? Messi is not a winger, not a striker and he requires a CF who plays infront of him. Coaches had to work around this issue for ages. When Suarez first arrived he played on the right wing. His debut in the Clasico had him put in crosses from the right side to Neymar, actually got an assist like that.

For a brief period after the 1-3 Clasico defeat and the Lucho-Messi feud he stayed on the right side for about 6 months. MSN was born. But even THEN Neymar was turned into a mere "chase Messi's diagonal passes" type of runner despite being so much more. He played his best football of his life when Messi was injured at the beginning of 15/16.

After the treble Messi went back to no man's land again, somewhere between right wing and CF however and whenever he likes. Rakitic was playing this weird "covering Messi's ass fake RW" role which made the whole midfield a mess ("no midfield control, midfielders playing too wide"). Lucho tried a 3 man backline formation to salvage the situation, benched Alba but player material (Mathieu in a 3 man backline) was never good enough to make this sustainable.

This is where Valverde was the best coach without a doubt. He went 4-4-2, only logical formation with Messi, though Suarez and Messi upfront is way too slow. The Brazilian dude from China whose name I forgot was a revelation with his vertical runs. It was the best Valverde could do.

All in all you can easily see that for years coaches have tried to somehow build a system around whatever Messi wants to do instead of applying a system and telling Messi to get on with it. Of course right now the team is way too destroyed to just "get rid of Messi and everything will be dandy" but he sure as hell played a huge role in the team's lack of adaptation to modern football.

Paulinho was one of the dodgiest transfer in recent years which needs investigating by the interpol as well as the Anonymous kids but he was incredible as a player.

wonder where he is now

I agree with you futbol. Although even in the treble season especially in the latter CL rounds Barca was defending in a 4-4-2. Against Juve, Messi also played in that fake RW role compared to his wider positioning when MSN first started firing.

In terms of including him it's something the sporting department should've been working around. They never did. Your coaches have tried though. Even when Setien first came he had him playing in a 3-5-2 and his positioning was strictly in the right half space and he talked about getting the ball to him rather than having him drop deep.

The most interesting thing to me though is that you never hear former coaches of his talk about his tactical issues. I don't get the impression Messi asks for them to change the system for him. You haven't heard about the little dictator talks since 2012. It could be that they give him the freedom to do what he wants because they think full freedom Messi = highest chance of winning. Maybe they'll open up about it after he retires.

Casciavit wrote:

The most interesting thing to me though is that you never hear former coaches of his talk about his tactical issues. I don't get the impression Messi asks for them to change the system for him. You haven't heard about the little dictator talks since 2012. It could be that they give him the freedom to do what he wants because they think full freedom Messi = highest chance of winning. Maybe they'll open up about it after he retires.

We didn't have confrontational coaches like Mourinho or van Gaal. Likes of Valverde or even Setien are too classy to come out and trash talk their players. Though I don't think Messi comes up to them and tells them what to do either, not in that way. There is just this aura of "Messi can do what he wants and you obey" surrounding the club and everyone knows it, like an unwritten law.

At the end of the day it all stems from weak leadership from the board who allowed this climate. Bartomeu doesn't have a clue what he is doing and just hopes that Messi can carry Barca to some titles.