Re: Is the US governmental system failing?

by VivaStPauli Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:57 pm

Let's just put this out there as food for thought:
No Republican is advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave.
All Democrats advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave are already out of the primaries.

At a certain point you get what you vote for.

by McLewis Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:05 pm

sportsczy wrote:
McLewis wrote:I'm not sure I understand the premise of the OP.

Is the criticism on the American political apparatus itself, such as the 3 branches of Government, the 2 chambers of Congress, the structuring of the Executive Branch and the system that makes up the Supreme Court?

I do not believe all of these institutions are broken. I do believe the laws and rules around how they operate are due greed, avarice and corruption. We're talking centuries of this stuff, long before Trump was elected. Politics fuels our government. Ideology fuels our politics. Values fuel our ideologies. If there's something broken, it's far deeper than government, which is merely the top level.

2 are extremely politicized and that development is recent. Pretty sure nobody here is old enough to have experienced the US government in the 90s where there were politics of course... but not to the detriment of moving the country forward. The parties would compromise with each other to get things done. Now it's just a game of sabotage from both sides regardless of the consequences to the country.

Congress and Executive branches are broken. Judicial branch... pretty much hasn't changed.

America has lost its compass. I've become increasingly sad about it.

What caused the shift to extremist? People's standard of living has decreased in the past 20 years overall for the first time in American history if you account for inflation. The wealth has only benefited a small segment of society over this period.

The median income in the US was $61,526 in 1999... and it was $63,179 in 2018. Yet the GDP went from 9.6 trillion to 20.6 trillion in that time... the Dow went from 10.4k to 26.4k. The general population did not benefit AT ALL from all that wealth. Many people became disenfranchised = blame the government and anyone else they could find = Trump (anti-establishment guy).

A government that does not serve the majority of the people = broken system. Can it be salvaged? I'm not sure. It would take compromise, respect for other people's opinions and, well, humanity.

Government is an institution. Fix the politics that run it and it will function the way it's expected to function. Central to fixing the politics is reconciling the size of government as this is a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. Severely curtailing special interests, the influence of lobbyists and the dark money that flows into the re-election coffers of the most powerful politicians would also go a long way towards improving the climate. The Supreme Court may not be broken as a system, but by upholding that corporations are people and therefore can donate to political campaigns, it has its share of the blame in how broken the system is in Washington.

by Young Kaz Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:26 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Let's just put this out there as food for thought:
No Republican is advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave.
All Democrats advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave are already out of the primaries.

At a certain point you get what you vote for.

Thats a fundamental difference between America and west Europe though.

Its not in the American subconscious to WANTthe government to do something for you. The idea is very much for the government to get out of your way and let you get these things on your own. Of course, this does not work all the time hence the inherent flaw in our system and effective ideology.

by sportsczy Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:56 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Let's just put this out there as food for thought:
No Republican is advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave.
All Democrats advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave are already out of the primaries.

At a certain point you get what you vote for.

Thats a fundamental difference between America and west Europe though.

Its not in the American subconscious to WANTthe government to do something for you. The idea is very much for the government to get out of your way and let you get these things on your own. Of course, this does not work all the time hence the inherent flaw in our system and effective ideology.

This is exactly right. I don't want a single thing from the government other than maintaining safety, order and good infrastructure. Other requirement is that they do get involved when a shock occurs that the system cannot handle.

Other than maintaining law and order, they now suck at the rest.

I've never relied on the government, nor do i want to, to do anything for me. This is true even when I lived in France, which is why my French mates had a hard time understanding me.

by VivaStPauli Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:15 pm

Which would be super nice if life was super fair and nobody had any disadvantages, but that is not how reality works, hence the political system of the US sucks.

by sportsczy Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:29 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Which would be super nice if life was super fair and nobody had any disadvantages, but that is not how reality works, hence the political system of the US sucks.

It doesn't suck. It was incredibly great until roughly 20 years ago and, conceptually, it's still excellent.

As McLewis put well, it's the people being voted in that are the problem... they're very extreme. Politicians need to understand that their role is to serve their constituents and country... a political party is a distant third.

In general, people will support "their candidate" and underlying beliefs even in the face of overwhelming evidence and facts that should make the shift. If you want to get to the core of the problem... it's not the system now that I think about it... it's the people.

by El Gunner Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:07 am

^^ how can you blame the people when the people are subjects of the system Laughing

you cannot blame the individual when it comes to group think (which is what politics is) because the system is in place controlling their every thought and behaviour

by futbol Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:17 am

A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

by Pedram Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:43 pm

futbol wrote:A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

I'd blame the education system rather than intelligence tbh, most lower income people have no access to higher education, couple that with a elementary and high school education system that forces you to read Ayn Rand novels as "literature" and you get a perfect mix of capitalist brainwashing.

Gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps, there are no alternatives.

by Young Kaz Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:05 pm

futbol wrote:A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

You are aware that America has been the most innovative, most productive, most industrious nation the world has ever seen right?

If anything, there should be a hundred million more Americans.

If not for those American "imbeciles" central Europe would be speaking Deutsche, or even русский.

by Young Kaz Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:10 pm

Pedram wrote:
futbol wrote:A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

I'd blame the education system rather than intelligence tbh, most lower income people have no access to higher education, couple that with a elementary and high school education system that forces you to read Ayn Rand novels as "literature" and you get a perfect mix of capitalist brainwashing.

Gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps, there are no alternatives.

No school is making kids read Ayn Rand before university level, and even then its no requirement.

American high schools are very standardized, and still roughly the same as it was when I was in it 13-17 years ago.

9th-> historical classics like Romeo Juliet,Odyssey,Iliad
10th->American Classics like crucible,gatsby,raisin in the sun, catcher in the rye
11th->British classics like Beowulf,Jane Austin novels,upper sheaksepare
12th->World lit so a classic from Asia,Africa, and south America.

That is the standard public school lit class path.

by Myesyats Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:20 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
futbol wrote:A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

You are aware that America has been the most innovative, most productive, most industrious nation the world has ever seen right?

If anything, there should be a hundred million more Americans.

If not for those American "imbeciles" central Europe would be speaking Deutsche, or even русский.

Without Europeans there would be no "America"

by Young Kaz Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:45 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
futbol wrote:A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

You are aware that America has been the most innovative, most productive, most industrious nation the world has ever seen right?

If anything, there should be a hundred million more Americans.

If not for those American "imbeciles" central Europe would be speaking Deutsche, or even русский.

Without Europeans there would be no "America"

And Areas in America where Europeans form the majority are Trump voting shitholes for the most part.

The America that the world dreams of living in, the kind that innovates at a rate the world has never seen, the kind that makes music you all listen to, Movies you all pay to watch, TV you all seek to emulate, are in places that draw a cultural norm from Latin America, from Africa, from Asia. Europe gels well into it though.

by Myesyats Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:07 pm

Can you back any of this with actual factual info and numbers or is this another one of your dumb rants?

Because all leaders in central and western Europe are basically the complete opposite of Trump.

Tell you the truth though, I don't understand Futbol's comment either

by Arquitecto Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:43 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
Myesyats wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:

You are aware that America has been the most innovative, most productive, most industrious nation the world has ever seen right?

If anything, there should be a hundred million more Americans.

If not for those American "imbeciles" central Europe would be speaking Deutsche, or even русский.

Without Europeans there would be no "America"

And Areas in America where Europeans form the majority are Trump voting shitholes for the most part.

The America that the world dreams of living in, the kind that innovates at a rate the world has never seen, the kind that makes music you all listen to, Movies you all pay to watch, TV you all seek to emulate, are in places that draw a cultural norm from Latin America, from Africa, from Asia. Europe gels well into it though.

That was not his point. The point was the Europeans, along with the creation of modern science (Beginning mostly from the 15th century) to philosophy to a lot to which is not given credit for, INCLUDING the United States IS because of them.

That fact is undeniable.

by Young Kaz Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:54 pm

Myesyats wrote:Can you back any of this with actual factual info and numbers or is this another one of your dumb rants?

Because all leaders in central and western Europe are basically the complete opposite of Trump.

Tell you the truth though, I don't understand Futbol's comment either

Trump really isnt the opposite of European leadership if we are being honest. He's just the uncouth version of what many think, and what many would become if they lived like him.

Who was bankrolling the Italians, and Greeks, while they spent their money to give terrorists like Gadaffi millions to keep people like the boatperson of Carthage out of Europe? I see a check with Merkel's name on it.

As far as your first question goes look up any demographic of an area, or company, that makes America great. Look at te infrastructure. Look whos paying taxes in these cities, look whos building these apps. Looks a hell of a lot more like Tijuana, or Bombay, than it does Lyon....just keeping it 100.

by Young Kaz Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:58 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
Myesyats wrote:
Without Europeans there would be no "America"

And Areas in America where Europeans form the majority are Trump voting shitholes for the most part.

The America that the world dreams of living in, the kind that innovates at a rate the world has never seen, the kind that makes music you all listen to, Movies you all pay to watch, TV you all seek to emulate, are in places that draw a cultural norm from Latin America, from Africa, from Asia. Europe gels well into it though.

That was not his point. The point was the Europeans, along with the creation of modern science (Beginning mostly from the 15th century) to philosophy to a lot to which is not given credit for, INCLUDING the United States IS because of them.

That fact is undeniable.

European areas are more likely to reject the science of the enlightenment.

I remember, 15 years ago, taking biology and having the Southern Christian council(guess where their ancestors came from) having a huge ass sticker placed in the book telling us:"Evolution is just a theory. Learn more aboute creationism here:" and a link to some baptist son of a bitch's ramblings. Thats that science.

His point(futbol) was that More Americans should not be born, while Europeans should, because a not so small percentage of Europeans always flirt with the idea of Eugenics when they get comfortable enough to speak freely.

by Unique Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:07 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
futbol wrote:A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

You are aware that America has been the most innovative, most productive, most industrious nation the world has ever seen right?

If anything, there should be a hundred million more Americans.

If not for those American "imbeciles" central Europe would be speaking Deutsche, or even русский.

Without Europeans there would be no "America"

in the words of mortal kombat. finish him Laughing

by CBarca Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:43 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
Pedram wrote:
futbol wrote:A large chunk of people in every country should have never reproduced but the US takes the cake with the amount of imbeciles given the right to vote (give or take half the population, in central European countries it's like 20 %).

I'd blame the education system rather than intelligence tbh, most lower income people have no access to higher education, couple that with a elementary and high school education system that forces you to read Ayn Rand novels as "literature" and you get a perfect mix of capitalist brainwashing.

Gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps, there are no alternatives.

No school is making kids read Ayn Rand before university level, and even then its no requirement.

American high schools are very standardized, and still roughly the same as it was when I was in it 13-17 years ago.

9th-> historical classics like Romeo Juliet,Odyssey,Iliad
10th->American Classics like crucible,gatsby,raisin in the sun, catcher in the rye
11th->British classics like Beowulf,Jane Austin novels,upper sheaksepare
12th->World lit so a classic from Asia,Africa, and south America.

That is the standard public school lit class path.

This is correct by Betty.

There is no Any Rand in American schools Laughing

where did that come from?

by Pedram Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:03 pm

CBarca wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
Pedram wrote:

I'd blame the education system rather than intelligence tbh, most lower income people have no access to higher education, couple that with a elementary and high school education system that forces you to read Ayn Rand novels as "literature" and you get a perfect mix of capitalist brainwashing.

Gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps, there are no alternatives.

No school is making kids read Ayn Rand before university level, and even then its no requirement.

American high schools are very standardized, and still roughly the same as it was when I was in it 13-17 years ago.

9th-> historical classics like Romeo Juliet,Odyssey,Iliad
10th->American Classics like crucible,gatsby,raisin in the sun, catcher in the rye
11th->British classics like Beowulf,Jane Austin novels,upper sheaksepare
12th->World lit so a classic from Asia,Africa, and south America.

That is the standard public school lit class path.

This is correct by Betty.

There is no Any Rand in American schools where did that come from?

I'm referring to this article, obviously the bill never became law because of its ridiculousness but it shows you how much right-wingers are intent on brainwashing people that they would try to insert capitalist propaganda in school curriculum.

Also it doesn't help when people like this are literally in charge of your public schools.

by sportsczy Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:34 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/30/the-10-most-educated-countries-in-the-world.html

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) ranks the U.S. sixth for adult education level. The OECD defined a country’s adult education level as the percentage of people between the ages of 25 and 64 who have completed some kind of tertiary education in the form of a two-year degree, four-year degree or vocational program.

Kids are plenty educated. It's the older generation that's the problem.... the ones that hold power currently. We need that generation to move on.

And frankly, I was mostly self-criticizing in this thread compared to what the US used to be. There's isn't anything in the world better. The US people don't want a social system. But we do want the government to act more rationally and for the good of the country... we don't seem to have lost our common purpose a bit.

by elitedam Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:46 pm

CBarca wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
Pedram wrote:

I'd blame the education system rather than intelligence tbh, most lower income people have no access to higher education, couple that with a elementary and high school education system that forces you to read Ayn Rand novels as "literature" and you get a perfect mix of capitalist brainwashing.

Gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps, there are no alternatives.

No school is making kids read Ayn Rand before university level, and even then its no requirement.

American high schools are very standardized, and still roughly the same as it was when I was in it 13-17 years ago.

9th-> historical classics like Romeo Juliet,Odyssey,Iliad
10th->American Classics like crucible,gatsby,raisin in the sun, catcher in the rye
11th->British classics like Beowulf,Jane Austin novels,upper sheaksepare
12th->World lit so a classic from Asia,Africa, and south America.

That is the standard public school lit class path.

This is correct by Betty.

There is no Any Rand in American schools where did that come from?

This is incorrect by Betty. Anthem was required reading my senior year.

by Young Kaz Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:09 pm

elitedam wrote:
CBarca wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:

No school is making kids read Ayn Rand before university level, and even then its no requirement.

American high schools are very standardized, and still roughly the same as it was when I was in it 13-17 years ago.

9th-> historical classics like Romeo Juliet,Odyssey,Iliad
10th->American Classics like crucible,gatsby,raisin in the sun, catcher in the rye
11th->British classics like Beowulf,Jane Austin novels,upper sheaksepare
12th->World lit so a classic from Asia,Africa, and south America.

That is the standard public school lit class path.

This is correct by Betty.

There is no Any Rand in American schools where did that come from?

This is incorrect by Betty. Anthem was required reading my senior year.

State?

by Zagadka Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:15 pm

People love to give America shit (And hell, I do a lot...I think having lived a life without any major disasters, wars, crisis...they are way too lax and ignorant sometimes)...but Betty makes a good point.

There is a reason a vast majority of innovative technology and new things come from America. You gotta give it to them and to deny them and their system that consistently produces such results would be a "hater" move.

It's a flawed society in many ways, but when it comes to creating a "winning" attitude and "we can do it" attitude, nowhere else comes close....but I am still certain of my prediction of US becoming Sovietized (broken into smaller countries) within the next 20-30 years max.

Too much social/racial/political division for the country to remain functional over the long-run...unless (ironically), it's run by an autocrat or heavily centralized power.

by elitedam Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:29 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
elitedam wrote:
CBarca wrote:

This is correct by Betty.

There is no Any Rand in American schools where did that come from?

This is incorrect by Betty. Anthem was required reading my senior year.

State?

North Carolina.

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