Premier League 17-18 Discussion Part 5

I've personally used "son" on here plenty of times and not just when I'm referring to Sonaldo. I'm well aware but the context is much different.

As far as the bernardo silva debate, let's dispense with your ideological catfights and look at it from a squadbuilding perspective:

City have a 20 player squad (not counting Zinchenko) for this season:

The EPL average is 26, the top6 average is 25 (source)
Considering out of 20, two are GKs, that leaves 18 outfield players to cover 10 positions.
Taking into account long term developments during the season - Mendy injury and Delph's shift to LB, City has:
4 players / 2 positions CB
3 pl / 2 pos FB
2 pl / 1 pos CF
that leaves effectively 8 players to cover 5 positions in midfield and out wide. (would be 9 were Delph not displaced).
the 3 backups out of these 8 are Yaya, Gundogan and B. Silva. Two of them can't play out wide. You would assume Delph was the intended backup instead of Yaya, who even so is getting scarce opportunity. Thus, B. Silva is effectively backing up the remaining three positions: 1 midfield and 2 out wide.

B. Silva has started 8/24 matches this season, has been the most frequently subbed on, took part in 22/24 matches and is 13th in minutes played. I don't know of an accepted term, but you could call his position in the squad as "prime rotation player", that is, just outside the starting 11. This in a season of many firsts for him which have been pointed out already.

As far as money spent on the squad is concerned, a few points:
disclaimer: not pretending transfermarkt values are accurate, but we can assume they are illustrative

All squads in the top6 are over 500M in value. The drop from 6th to 7th is larger than 1st to 6th. Any fans of these teams (and other continental superpowers) complaining about limited resources are actually criticising their own teams' squadbuilding.
Where the real difference lies is in average value per squad member. To illustrate, City has 123% of Liverpool's total squad value. The average value of a City player is 170% to one of Liverpool's.

This is because of squad size of course, And this is where we get to the crux of the issue: impact vs redundancy. Guardiola has stated before that he prefers small squads:

Pep wrote:“I like to play with a short (small) squad,” he said. “I like to have three, four, five multi-functional players who can play in different positions.
(source)

We can infer who are City's versatile players: Fernandinho, Delph, Silva, De Bruyne. Perhaps, B. Silva also, the man currently covering 3 positions across midfield and attack?
This is a choice teams make when squadbuilding: impact or redundancy. Either choice has its risks. A couple of key injuries and your small squad will be spread thin (which can be alleviated by multi-purpose players). A large squad will mean fresher players, more competition for spots, but also less cohesiveness beyond the first eleven.

Also, often overlooked, is the bench and the subs. This is where the two approaches are crystallized. I have 3 precious subs. I need to change the game. When I look to my bench do I want to see someone of B. Silva's market value (and implied quality), or Denis Suarez, Rafinha, Andre Gomes and Arda Turan (whose combined market value is larger) and pick one? You can do the same hypothetical with your own teams' benches and see.

The point is, every summer, there is a choice to be made when piecing together a squad for the coming season, and Guardiola's choice is clear.
And Bernardo Silva an integral part of that choice for the current season, whatever the future holds for him.

For levity, here are some quotes from the past 2 pages of this thread:

Pep signed Bernardo only to bench him forever

Bernardo was a 'just in case' signing.

Pep [fault] for signing a player that does not immediately fits his scheme (my personal favorite)

Pep is stacking up all players he can get. It's overkill

I won't quote any more from Hapless to spare everyone's eyes, minds and hearts.

(I'd also point out that I have intentionally not mentioned
a. Pep's development plans for B. Silva, because I'm not Silva, his teammates, his coaches or his manager, so I don't know  and
b. B. Silva's (or any other player) performances this season, because when building a squad, not even Pep's bald head can tell the future.)

how is it that lges in Europe play the same amount of games as teams in England. the season starts and ends at the same time. they have a winter break yet its out teams that always seem to have fixture congestion. plus we play most of our games when they have a break. when the fook do they play their games

We have two cup competitions to their one, probably where the difference lies.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:We have two cup competitions to their one, probably where the difference lies.

Yeah, and the superfluous one of those cups even has two legged rounds

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:We have two cup competitions to their one, probably where the difference lies.

Yeah, and the superfluous one of those cups even has two legged rounds

but on the flip side most teams put out a u23 team in that cup anyway.

Firenze went all out here

Easily the rant of the season. This is what football is all about. Making grown men like this go absolutely mental when his team loses. pic.twitter.com/L4VxawXRAs

— Football__Tweet (@Football__Tweet) December 11, 2017

Unique wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:We have two cup competitions to their one, probably where the difference lies.

Yeah, and the superfluous one of those cups even has two legged rounds

but on the flip side most teams put out a u23 team in that cup anyway.

That's why the whole "English teams are so tired" thing is a myth.
Some coaches, like Mourinho, are just too stupid to rotate.

V with the beat down

How do you respond Hans?

V wrote:
I won't quote any more from Hapless to spare everyone's eyes, minds and hearts.

NascarBarca wrote:V with the beat down

How do you respond Hans?

I'll respond by quoting all of my posts from the previous 3 pages.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Casciavit wrote:He's trying to turn Bernardo into a CM, but he's been struggling to adapt apparently.

Takes too many touches, dwells on the ball for far too long, and he's always moving towards the ball instead of away from it. It makes sense though. He was a counterattacking RM in a 4-4-2 lol.

He just isn't ready to play there, and the players ahead of him are all in better form. He doesn't deserve to be starting ahead of any of Sterling, Sane, KDB, Silva, and Jesus/Aguero.

Let's not blame the victim here.
Fact is Pep's City spent 60m € to buy one of the best players of the team that kicked them out of CL, in fact one of the best performers in world football last season, only to have him on the bench.
They're buying the whole world, because they're funded by an Emirates state similar to PSG and they don't actually need to be accountable.
Not accountable from an financial equal playing field standpoint, and not accountable to the players they buy and waste.

Pep wants toys to play with, if he can get more toys he wants more toys. Never mind they're lying around unused.
City buy him all the toys he wants. He wants a GK, even though he has the English NT GK. He gets the GK of the Spanish champions for 40m €. What? That GK is not good enough now? He gets a new GK for 40m the season later.
Sanchez will be the next, even though it's a stupid *bleep* idea.

This is the truth, not "oh Bernardo is taking too many touches to be a Pep CM"

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Casciavit wrote:If you think Bernardo deserves to be starting ahead of anyone who's currently starting, you're delusional.

His form doesn't warrant him starting. Simple.

Yep, although he hasn't had many chances to prove himself tbh.

His FORM?
How can you speak of form when a player never gets starts?
Pep is stacking up all players he can get. It's overkill. Of course player's FORM will suffer if they don't actually have a place in the team.
They want Sanchez too. What then? Sané will be on the bench? Sterling? Who've been both great?
And then, after a few weeks, you'll have Pep worshippers claiming their FORM is what doesn't let them start.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

RealGunner wrote:Bernardo was a 'just in case' signing.

Exactly that. It's disgusting and I hope FFP gets resuscitated to stop this

 

Casciavit wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:


Yep, although he hasn't had many chances to prove himself tbh.

His FORM?
How can you speak of form when a player never gets starts?
Pep is stacking up all players he can get. It's overkill. Of course player's FORM will suffer if they don't actually have a place in the team.
They want Sanchez too. What then? Sané will be on the bench? Sterling? Who've been both great?
And then, after a few weeks, you'll have Pep worshippers claiming their FORM is what doesn't let them start.

Holy smokes, you're dense.

Does Bernardo deserve to have a starting position ahead of KDB, Silva, Sane, and Sterling?

DOES HE?

Do you see the form those players are in? Why would you bench them? They're all a better fit for City. City need pacy wingers as outlets, so he isn't gonna start ahead of Sane or Sterling.

KDB and Silva are arguably the best players in the league.

Whenever he has played he hasn't looked that good aside from his 30 min cameo against Everton. That's where he was playing as a CAM in a 4-3-1-2.

But clearly, City's 4-3-3 is doing the job considering the form they're in.

He'll get more chances as the fixture list piles up, but I don't understand this notion that he should start because of what he did last season.

Also City did need another CM. Gundogan's injury prone. They had nobody to rotate with Silva and KDB last season. Also this season, Sane and Sterling are there only wingers.

The players starting ahead of him are better fits and know what Pep wants from them better than Bernardo, I can't believe some are failing to understand this.

Hapless_Hans wrote:So according to you, Bernardo was bought to be a CM, but I'm the one that's dense?

Right...

Hapless_Hans wrote:Stop insulting me, Cas.

Hapless_Hans wrote:My point was that City can casually buy one of the best performers of another team for 60m+ to sit on the bench as a Pep 'project'

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Sure they can, i don't genuinely think that was the out right plan though.

Nah, there I agree with Cas. Pep's plan, as it has been at Bayern, is the 4-1-4-1/4-3-3, generate space for the wingers who are quick in 1v1s  by playing with skillfull AMs in quasi CM positions, so that the center gets congested and the wingers have space to attack their opponents.
Given how Silva looks, that's probably roughly where he was supposed to fit in.

It's still overkill, and sad to see such a player wasted. And Monaco, of course, is ruined.
It's very similar to Bayern buying Götze, actually, and then Pep doesn't have space for him either. That was a disgusting move too.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

NascarBarca wrote:Hey everyone look, Hans is STILL as outraged clubs spend money as he was 3 years ago!!

I can't tell if it's a shtick to defend Bayern's level headed approach or if Hans is actually stuck 5 or 6 years in the past, but why are we acting like it's absurd that City would throw mad money at a player who would be considered rotation?

I've said it a million times. It's CHUMP CHANGE for City. It's not right but it's the reality.

I've never said it's new, and I've certainly never said it's not the 'reality'.
But what's the argument here? No need to be outraged because it's real? Or not new?

Hapless_Hans wrote:

NascarBarca wrote:The argument is I don't understand why this is coming up for the billionth time.

What was the point you were trying to make?

We were talking about Bernardo Silva. And the fact that he is not seeing any game time, and that this is a sign of overkill spending.
That's why it came up, and it's a good reason to talk about it.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

NascarBarca wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:


We were talking about Bernardo Silva. And the fact that he is not seeing any game time, and that this is a sign of overkill spending.
That's why it came up, and it's a good reason to talk about it.

That's what I said.

The answer is simple. It is overkill spending. It's because City can afford to do it. Why are you still acting so surprised that this happens?

I'm not surprised. I'm simply hating on them. Since when is hating on City some kind of breach of etiquette here ffs?
"Hans, what the hell are you doing? Why are you acting this way" etc etc
I'm hating on City, what's not to get?

Well played.

Anyone who has watch enough of City can see that Bernardo hasn't done anything to warrant a starting position. He will get more start coming up and hopefully he will continue to settle into the PL/UK like Sane did last season. Sane broke through and cement his position in Jan. However, Sane did show flashes of brilliance which I've not really seen in Bernardo. Don't expect him to gel into Pep's system like KdB or David did since both are familiar with the league and have experience. While adding defensive responsibilities that I doubt was given to him with Monaco.

Bernardo should start this Wednesday against Swansea. Hopefully he converts his chance better than missing 2 1v1 chances in the Derby. Additionally Im not sure why people expecting him to be a starter when the best CM/AMs in the league play for City. He isn't a complete mid like Kevin nor should one expecting him displace a WC and 2X Euro winner in David, even if he is aging.

Currently he doesn't show the passing range that David Silva provides us and ability to open up teams. Bernardo's dribbling ability is not at a level that would be worry most teams. Perhaps against farmers in France (or Clichy in UCL). Not going to rate/dismiss him until next season once he had a season and preseason to settle into Pep's team. Assume our Future Goat, Phil Foden, doesn't bench him by than.

V wrote:Well played.

Desperate times require desperate measures. I was backed up against the wall.

nasir6371 wrote:Anyone who has watch enough of City can see that Bernardo hasn't done anything to warrant a starting position. He will get more start coming up and hopefully he will continue to settle into the PL/UK like Sane did last season. Sane broke through and cement his position in Jan. However, Sane did show flashes of brilliance which I've not really seen in Bernardo. Don't expect him to gel into Pep's system like KdB or David did since both are familiar with the league and have experience. While adding defensive responsibilities that I doubt was given to him with Monaco.

Bernardo should start this Wednesday against Swansea. Hopefully he converts his chance better than missing 2 1v1 chances in the Derby. Additionally Im not sure why people expecting him to be a starter when the best CM/AMs in the league play for City. He isn't a complete mid like Kevin nor should one expecting him displace a WC and 2X Euro winner in David, even if he is aging.

Currently he doesn't show the passing range that David Silva provides us and ability to open up teams. Bernardo's dribbling ability is not at a level that would be worry most teams. Perhaps against farmers in France (or Clichy in UCL). Not going to rate/dismiss him until next season once he had a season and preseason to settle into Pep's team. Assume our Future Goat, Phil Foden, doesn't bench him by than.

Stop talking sense.

The GOAT needs time to elevate Bernardo's game to the next level and have it resemble some elements of El Mago. It's impossible to come in and expect to replicate De Bruyne and Spanish Dave's performances in less than six months even with the best coach that ever was and ever will be showing you the true path to super stardom.

https://twitter.com/NoenWraith/status/940123444380913664

Greatest moment of the season, Bernado Silva lmfao.

Mourinho getting his own taste.

only thing to be taken from that game is that City aren't very, if at all, ahead of us in terms of quality, especially when we were missing our two best outfield players

all 3 goals came from errors, we created the only real clear cut chance of the game (and failed to convert) IMO

City knew they stole 3 points, when was the last time you saw a Pep team timewasting like that to hold on to a win? says it all IMO

Either way we're clearly the two best teams in the league, I think City have already wrapped up the title but nobody will catch us either

the rest can fight for fourth

don't @ me

They played about as badly as imaginable and in pretty crappy form in general.

I wouldn't take anything from it tbh.

Nishankly wrote:https://twitter.com/NoenWraith/status/940123444380913664

Greatest moment of the season, Bernado Silva lmfao.

Mourinho getting his own taste.

Beautiful

Firenze wrote:only thing to be taken from that game is that City aren't very, if at all, ahead of us in terms of quality, especially when we were missing our two best outfield players

all 3 goals came from errors, we created the only real clear cut chance of the game (and failed to convert) IMO

City knew they stole 3 points, when was the last time you saw a Pep team timewasting like that to hold on to a win? says it all IMO

Either way we're clearly the two best teams in the league, I think City have already wrapped up the title but nobody will catch us either

the rest can fight for fourth

don't @ me

The only thing missing from this post is perhaps a mp3 rendition of "You'll never walk alone" playing softly in the background.

It's beyond delusional but whatever gives you a small flickering flame of hope going forward sweetheart before City come along again and pi$$ all over it.

Nishankly wrote:https://twitter.com/NoenWraith/status/940123444380913664

Greatest moment of the season, Bernado Silva lmfao.

Mourinho getting his own taste.

I remember Denilson used to do the same in one of the world cup (don't remember which).

Nishankly wrote:https://twitter.com/NoenWraith/status/940123444380913664

Greatest moment of the season, Bernado Silva lmfao.

Mourinho getting his own taste.

That look from Ashley Young at 1:02 is one of the best looks given ANYWHERE this season in ANY league.

Ashley Young is one of those players you can't hate because he's so bad and such a joke, but at the same time he's complete scum. Never seen a more whiny player in my life. Guy looks like he's on the verge of tears every time the ref doesn't give him a call he likes.

NascarBarca wrote:
Ashley Young is one of those players you can't hate because he's so bad and such a joke.

he's been the best LB in the league this season, maybe tied with Kolasinac


put some respect on his name

Probably because the only good LB in the league is injured lol.

There's not a single good LB across the league atm.

No he hasn't lol, and that's with no good LB's in the league. Even in the game yesterday, Delph was 10x as good and Delph is actually a terrible player, and used to be a CM.

Yes he has. And he's been beasting in the CL too. Man said Delph Stick to your Nascar IMO.

disclaimer: I don't even rate Young. I am disgusted and shocked at how well he's playing this season.