La Liga: Athletic Bilbao vs FC Barcelona

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Post by Cruijf Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:28 am

Suarez was excellent but Messi was poor Laughing

Point out the Messi misses but ignore the Suarez open net Messi gave him on a plate Laughing

I missed the old you Proud

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Post by Cruijf Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:30 am

I actually also disagree on your 4-4-2 point. Messi dropped very deep but in return Arda played very high and Rakitic as well actually broke free very often. Virtually every time you broke the press you were very dangerous. The problem is just you are awful at playing out from the back which is nothing new under Enrique.
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Post by alexjanosik Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:44 am

You mean the pointless shot right before the final whistle. You are missing the point. We played decently( there were issues like I pointed out) with the 4-4-2 inspite of Messi.
Not because of him.
It may work because Suarez is a monster. He can do the job of 2 guys alone. Like to worked today. Suarez played great, covered a lot of ground and made up for Messi. But it will burn him out and it may not always work.
Actually I think we play out from the back fine. We didnt face much trouble playing out from the back today. There were a couple of nervy moments but that is to be expected with the intense Bilbao press. It was the same even under Pep. The issue is once we reach the midfield. The midfield structure is just not there. Where are the triangles to pass the ball forward? All I see is a flat line or the 2 midfielders running helter skelter towards goal when Busquets has the ball. It is not very aesthetically pleasing.

Even if I remove those objections, the tactical issues still remain. It wont work with Messi and the spacing between the 2 lines needs to be way better. Busquets also needs to be told that he cant abandon his position to press recklessly.

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Post by Cruijf Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:18 am

With a press as high as Athletic the midfield is irrelevant. Every time you broke the first line of pressure there was so much space Messi, Suarez, Arda, and sometimes Rakitic had acres of space to run into and look threatening almost every time it happened.

Saying you are bad at playing out from the back doesn't necessarily mean you were caught out, this rarely happened. But there were very long portions of the game where you were pinned in your third and simply could not get out. For a team of Barca's stature this is embarrassing.

I think the midfield issues will be partially solved when Iniesta returns as he is much more positionally sound than Denis Suarez. Neymar will also help provide width which is important when playing out from the back. But like I said in this particular game I did not see midfield shape as the main issue. Once you got out of your third you were very dangerous, getting out was the problem.
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Post by Donuts Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:45 am

this type of game would of been heaven for neymar who thrives in space and can murder defenders with his pace.

but luckily it worked out for us in the end.
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Post by Harmonica Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:57 am

Suarez was awful again, it's good that we bought Alcacer so Suarez can be benched when he's not sharp enough. And there'll be many matches because he can't rest nt breaks anymore.

Roberto again bossed RB, and don't know why Umtiti was subbed off, he's been great.
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Post by free_cat Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:27 am

Umtiti wasn't good. He was sinking. That's why Luis Enrique subbed him. Otherwise he wouldn't have been subbed. Defenders are never subbed if they are playing OK in a tight game.
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Post by Lucifer Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:21 am

hey got early yellow hence maybe subbed. btw once again he was very solid imo. Mascherano was missed but not for defensive work but for building from back and for those long diagonal balls.

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Post by alexjanosik Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:37 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Suarez was awful again, it's good that we bought Alcacer so Suarez can be benched when he's not sharp enough. And there'll be many matches because he can't rest nt breaks anymore.

Roberto again bossed RB, and don't know why Umtiti was subbed off, he's been great.


Is this a joke? Paco is a scrub compared to Suarez. We dont win yesterday without Suarez. Released Arda with a brilliant play for the goal. Set up Messi twice.
Hell, even on the last chance, the most impressive part of the play was Suarez's one touch reverse pass to release Messi into space.
Thats 4 chances he was directly involved in. I am sure I am missing one more. And then the intangible stuff. The work he put in to make the system work.
By any fair metric, he had a great game and was certainly better than Messi. And yet, you want to tell me that some scrub from Valencia can do his job.

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Post by Harmonica Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:40 pm

We win yesterdays game without Suarez, he was offside all the time because he wasn't sharp enough and that blew like 3 goals in addition the chance's he wasted.
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Post by Myesyats Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:49 pm

Yeah Suarez can be an ass sometimes but most of the time he's insane. Also, Paco is not a scrub and will be great coming off the bench for Luisito if he's having an off day. Alex is a bit biased here.

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Post by Lucifer Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:54 pm

what concerns me more about Suarez is his temperament. Lucho should have him attend some therapy or something imo. no need to act like hooligan and get yellows unnecessarily. first match we were winning 5-1 and he does some crazy shit and gets yellowed smh. needs to stop ASAP.

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Post by FennecFox7 Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:25 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Suarez was awful again, it's good that we bought Alcacer so Suarez can be benched when he's not sharp enough. And there'll be many matches because he can't rest nt breaks anymore.

Roberto again bossed RB, and don't know why Umtiti was subbed off, he's been great.


Is this a joke? Paco is a scrub compared to Suarez. We dont win yesterday without Suarez. Released Arda with a brilliant play for the goal. Set up Messi twice.
Hell, even on the last chance, the most impressive part of the play was Suarez's one touch reverse pass to release Messi into space.
Thats 4 chances he was directly involved in. I am sure I am missing one more. And then the intangible stuff. The work he put in to make the system work.
By any fair metric, he had a great game and was certainly better than Messi. And yet, you want to tell me that some scrub from Valencia can do his job.


I can't be the only one who thinks paco isn't a good move Alex. He can only back up Suarez as a CF, so that means little game time. He can't play on the wings, so that's even less game time

How does munir, a superior player get shafted over paco, who MAY be a better goalscorer (that's debatable considering the opportunities both have had to play) and munir pretty much shits on him in every category
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Post by Myesyats Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:01 am

Munir shits on alcacer in every category????

WTF are we talking about this Munir EL HADDADI???

Is this real life or is this fantasy

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Post by alexjanosik Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:43 pm

@FennecFox7 wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Suarez was awful again, it's good that we bought Alcacer so Suarez can be benched when he's not sharp enough. And there'll be many matches because he can't rest nt breaks anymore.

Roberto again bossed RB, and don't know why Umtiti was subbed off, he's been great.


Is this a joke? Paco is a scrub compared to Suarez. We dont win yesterday without Suarez. Released Arda with a brilliant play for the goal. Set up Messi twice.
Hell, even on the last chance, the most impressive part of the play was Suarez's one touch reverse pass to release Messi into space.
Thats 4 chances he was directly involved in. I am sure I am missing one more. And then the intangible stuff. The work he put in to make the system work.
By any fair metric, he had a great game and was certainly better than Messi. And yet, you want to tell me that some scrub from Valencia can do his job.


I can't be the only one who thinks paco isn't a good move Alex. He can only back up Suarez as a CF, so that means little game time. He can't play on the wings, so that's even less game time

How does munir, a superior player get shafted over paco, who MAY be a better goalscorer (that's debatable considering the opportunities both have had to play) and munir pretty much shits on him in every category


I dont think Paco is a great move. Like you, I dont think there is a substantial gap in quality between the two. Certainly not to the tune of 30 mil and the loan of Munir.

I also dont like the implied policy of youth development(
or lack thereof). We are trusting outsiders over La Masia kids and outsourcing youth development. Youth development is part of our identity and we seem to have dropped the ball under Enrique. What sort of a motivation will this provide to the talented youngsters at La Masia?
Now the cynics like futbol might argue that the reason nobody is being promoted and played is that no one is good enough. I strongly disagree. Talent alone is never enough. Whether a player makes it or not can depend on a lot of factors. IMO, one of the crucial factors is how well the coach can transition a player from the youth to the senior team. Thats what marks the good youth coaches from the poor ones. Its what separates an Enrique(besides tactics) from a Van Gaal, Rijkaard or a Guardiola.
Had those 3 not promoted and helped youngsters, we might not have seen the versions of Messi, Xavi, Puyol, Iniesta, Busquets etc that we actually saw.
Anyone claiming that they would have been as good regardless is being painfully ignorant.

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Post by Myesyats Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:14 pm

Theres no debate here. Paco is a proven profilic goalscorer and we need a reliable backup for Luisito. Munir is shit as a striker, cannot time his runs for shit and is poor at making himself available between the opponent's CBs.

He's only good on the wings and on the right Messi plays every game and on the left theres Neymar/Arda

So yeah in conclusion its a very good move for Barca.

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Post by futbol Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:01 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:
@FennecFox7 wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:


Is this a joke? Paco is a scrub compared to Suarez. We dont win yesterday without Suarez. Released Arda with a brilliant play for the goal. Set up Messi twice.
Hell, even on the last chance, the most impressive part of the play was Suarez's one touch reverse pass to release Messi into space.
Thats 4 chances he was directly involved in. I am sure I am missing one more. And then the intangible stuff. The work he put in to make the system work.
By any fair metric, he had a great game and was certainly better than Messi. And yet, you want to tell me that some scrub from Valencia can do his job.


I can't be the only one who thinks paco isn't a good move Alex. He can only back up Suarez as a CF, so that means little game time. He can't play on the wings, so that's even less game time

How does munir, a superior player get shafted over paco, who MAY be a better goalscorer (that's debatable considering the opportunities both have had to play) and munir pretty much shits on him in every category


I dont think Paco is a great move. Like you, I dont think there is a substantial gap in quality between the two. Certainly not to the tune of 30 mil and the loan of Munir.

I also dont like the implied policy of youth development(
or lack thereof). We are trusting outsiders over La Masia kids and outsourcing youth development. Youth development is part of our identity and we seem to have dropped the ball under Enrique. What sort of a motivation will this provide to the talented youngsters at La Masia?
Now the cynics like futbol might argue that the reason nobody is being promoted and played is that no one is good enough. I strongly disagree. Talent alone is never enough. Whether a player makes it or not can depend on a lot of factors. IMO, one of the crucial factors is how well the coach can transition a player from the youth to the senior team. Thats what marks the good youth coaches from the poor ones. Its what separates an Enrique(besides tactics) from a Van Gaal, Rijkaard or a Guardiola.
Had those 3 not promoted and helped youngsters, we might not have seen the versions of Messi, Xavi, Puyol, Iniesta, Busquets etc that we actually saw.
Anyone claiming that they would have been as good regardless is being painfully ignorant.

Guardiola hasn't promoted a single Bayern player in 3 years from their youth ranks. Not a single one. Laughing Where does this myth come from that Guardiola is some sort of youth expert? He bought ancient Alonso and sat Thiago's ass on the bench when it mattered, the one youngster he desperately wanted and rated highest. Guardiola's only successful youth promotion work in his entire coaching career are Busquets and Pedro and the latter I wouldn't even call successful, considering Pedro hasn't actually turned out to become a great player and only had 1 1/2 great seasons (purple patch), has proven to be an utter fraud beyond 09-11 and disappeared into obscurity these days. Would have won the CL in 11/12 if Pep had bought real players like Suarez instead of trying to be a hipster with talentless workhorses like Pedro and Alexis.

La Masia wouldn't produce new Messis and Xavis and Iniesta and Puyols. That was always clear. It was once in a lifetime. No matter how well a manager "transitions" a youth player into the first team, you don't turn Sergi Roberto and Rafinha into Xavi and Iniesta.

Munir was here for 2 seasons. Beyond preseason he hasn't shown anything of note except in his debut La Liga game.

Can't say anything about Paco yet. The chances Barca creates and that woeful Valencia team coached by the likes of Neville in recent times aren't even remotely compareable. He still managed 1 goal every 2 starts. Wouldn't be surprised if he can hit 15 league goals easily even as a sub for Barca.

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Post by alexjanosik Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Why am I not surprised that you are taking shots at Pep?
He brought Busquets through at the expense of Yaya. Busquets has been the best DM in the world for 5,6 years. Then he brought Pedro and Pique into the first team. Also brought Thiago into the limelight. You conveniently forget that it was Pep who brought Thiago through and even started him in a Clasico.
The fact that Thiago has been constantly injured fpor 3 seasons straight is not Pep's fault. Fact remains that Pep brought him through and before his injury troubles, kid looked destined for Xavi-Iniesta level.

At Bayern,Pep has brought through Kimmich. Kid started in the Euro and has grown leaps and bounds under Pep. The more important factor(herein lies the distinction) to consider is that pep actually gave the youth chances. Unlike Enrique, Pep didnt outsource youth development. At both Barca and Bayern, Pep gave the youth a lot of chances to impress. He didnt leave them to rot in the B or outsource their development to other clubs.

Also like how you are conveniently ignoring Van Gaal and Rijkaard. Is it a coincidence that youths prosper under Van Gaal and turn into great players. It is not by chance. The man has done it at every single club he has been at, including Barca.
I dont dispute that not everyone can turn into a Xavi or an Iniesta. However, you should remember that under the current policy, even the ones who are talented enough to make it are left by the wayside. Even a player with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta level talent wont always make it without the proper coaching and transition.

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Post by futbol Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:59 pm

"Brought Thiago into the limelight." I followed Thiago's youth career closely back then when I had more interest in Barca B and because I was so curious since Thiago was hyped to be the next Xavi/Iniesta. Thiago was way above everyone else in the U19/21 teams for Spain way before Pep ever coached him. Just look back at U21 EC 2011 which Spain won with Thiago being the MVP. And now look at Samper, Rafinha, Sergi Roberto etc. and what they did (or rather: did not) for their respective youth teams. Also how convenient to ignore that it was Enrique who coached Thiago at Barca B for 3 years and played a bigger role in developing him at a young age. Pep didn't do anything special so that Thiago performed. He did exactly the same as Enrique is doing with Rafinha: he played him. Only difference: Thiago is far better and thus performs better and Rafinha is mediocre and thus performs mediocre. Let's not overexaggerate coaching influence here. Some talents are great, some are not.

LVG is a fraud. Ask any United fan. His judgement of youth players is just as random as anything else he does. Playing youth until something sticks. Fought with the Bayern board to make Thomas Kraft his GK at Bayern instead of Neuer and bought Depay for € 35M who is total garbage. Has been lucky to be Bayern coach at a time when Germany's youth reforms had been kicking in. I have more faith in Enrique's judgement when it comes to youth players. So far he hasn't been proven wrong even once. Deulofeu has flopped at Sevilla and Everton, Grimaldo is forgotten, Adama is garbage etc. etc.

Rijkaard is underrated for many reasons, I agree and said so before.

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