VivaStPauli wrote:I think while Germany as a whole can be just as cynical as any country, there are at least some mechanisms in place that show that some time ago, some people learned a bit from the past. Hence our very generous laws concerning people seeking political asylum, or war refugees.

just a question here and I'm not asking it to get into a argument but would you be willing to stand in front of the familys of the people hurt and killed and say what your saying on this forum.

@Unique

Well, I would do that - I would say "I'm just here because people were generous enough to help my grandmother and father when she was on the flight after WWII. And among those people who helped her, a German, were even Polish people who were among the ones who were most horribly hit by Germans and who had almost nothing but still offered to share it?.

Who would I be to refuse help to other refugees, only if there are a handful bad apples among them?

How would *you* feel if you were running from war and destruction with you kids and  you would only find closed doors and were left to die from hunger and exposition?"

rwo power wrote:@Unique

Well, I would do that - I would say "I'm just here because people were generous enough to help my grandmother and father when she was on the flight after WWII. And among those people who helped her, a German, were even Polish people who were among the ones who were most horribly hit by Germans and who had almost nothing but still offered to share it?.

Who would I be to refuse help to other refugees, only if there are a handful bad apples among them?

How would *you* feel if you were running from war and destruction with you kids and  you would only find closed doors and were left to die from hunger and exposition?"

But where goes the limit for you? How many people have to die from jihadist terrorism in otherwise peaceful Europe before your mind changes? How big an impact does there have to be on peaceful European societies? I've just read this morning the governor of Bavaria saying that Germans are "full of fear" right now. Surely there's a limit for everyone (well, maybe not for Viva). I'm just curious to hear where it goes. For me, it's been reached.

I mean, five years ago, I still thought that multiculturalism had failed - and that immigration policies should be based on socio-cultural studies about which groups of people can be considered likely enough to integrate in which societies - but I wasn't feeling very strongly about the matter. Because it was pretty harmless after all. People didn't integrate very well, but, yeah, too bad, I thought. It wasn't resulting in huge, frequent tragedies in peaceful societies. But now we have an enormous problem of failed multiculturalism on our hands, resulting in hundreds of deaths annually. For sure, there's a limit for everyone how much they're willing to accept. Yet a lot of people in here are talking about this like there isn't such a limit. Like this is a problem we just have to cope with instead of solve.

About your last argument; like I've said before, if I was running from war and knew that Finnish people had been carrying out terrorist attacks around the world, I would absolutely understand and accept that I won't be let in.

Art Morte wrote:
About your last argument; like I've said before, if I was running from war and knew that Finnish people had been carrying out terrorist attacks around the world, I would absolutely understand and accept that I won't be let in.

That's because there are barely 5 million of you Finnish lads and you guys are lesser in number than the city im currently living and i'm quite sure you've never heard of this Indian city and my city barely makes the top 10 in India.

XD

No, that's because that is how I feel about the matter.

Art Morte wrote:But where goes the limit for you? How many people have to die from jihadist terrorism in otherwise peaceful Europe before your mind changes? How big an impact does there have to be on peaceful European societies? I've just read this morning the governor of Bavaria saying that Germans are "full of fear" right now. Surely there's a limit for everyone (well, maybe not for Viva). I'm just curious to hear where it goes. For me, it's been reached.

I guess the difference is that I'm living in the Ruhr Area where we already had millions (!) of guest workers from many different cultures. There are around 4 million Turks living in Germany and those usually are Muslims and they are here for ages already.

Two streets away from me there is a refugee asylum where Tamil people now live for more than twenty or so years and I never experienced problems with them and they are a pretty foreign culture, too.

Maybe it's also because we have the Friedensdorf very close by and thus always had several of these heavily injured and sometimes disfigured kids from war zones in the classes of the school where I went and when you talked with them and learned about the horrors they faced first hand, you probably would have gotten a different perspective. If you never met any refugees and never talked with them in person, they are of course a faceless mass, but they are humans who each have a personality and a history.

The main problem is that there is not enough done for integration. IMO they must be told that there is no way to opt out of swimming classes for girlsand similar things and there should be more focus on teaching them German and the cultural values here.

And IMO there should be a possibility that one can let people who look for asylum due community work for the benefits they get. IMO one of the problems is that the young male refugees have to hang uselessly around while they wait whether they will get asylum or not and thus the feeling of being useless and frustration grows. So why not recruit them for stuff where the towns other wise don't really have the money to employ workers? That would help everybody. But for that, the laws would need to be modified.

rwo power wrote:@Unique

Well, I would do that - I would say "I'm just here because people were generous enough to help my grandmother and father when she was on the flight after WWII. And among those people who helped her, a German, were even Polish people who were among the ones who were most horribly hit by Germans and who had almost nothing but still offered to share it?.

Who would I be to refuse help to other refugees, only if there are a handful bad apples among them?

How would *you* feel if you were running from war and destruction with you kids and  you would only find closed doors and were left to die from hunger and exposition?"

so you would tell the murder and rape victims that they don't matter because they have to put up with a few bad apples. Tbh mate it wouldent do for someone to tell me that after my family got killed.

rwo power wrote:

Art Morte wrote:But where goes the limit for you? How many people have to die from jihadist terrorism in otherwise peaceful Europe before your mind changes? How big an impact does there have to be on peaceful European societies? I've just read this morning the governor of Bavaria saying that Germans are "full of fear" right now. Surely there's a limit for everyone (well, maybe not for Viva). I'm just curious to hear where it goes. For me, it's been reached.

I guess the difference is that I'm living in the Ruhr Area where we already had millions (!) of guest workers from many different cultures. There are around 4 million Turks living in Germany and those usually are Muslims and they are here for ages already.

Two streets away from me there is a refugee asylum where Tamil people now live for more than twenty or so years and I never experienced problems with them and they are a pretty foreign culture, too.

Maybe it's also because we have the Friedensdorf very close by and thus always had several of these heavily injured and sometimes disfigured kids from war zones in the classes of the school where I went and when you talked with them and learned about the horrors they faced first hand, you probably would have gotten a different perspective. If you never met any refugees and never talked with them in person, they are of course a faceless mass, but they are humans who each have a personality and a history.

The main problem is that there is not enough done for integration. IMO they must be told that there is no way to opt out of swimming classes for girlsand similar things and there should be more focus on teaching them German and the cultural values here.

And IMO there should be a possibility that one can let people who look for asylum due community work for the benefits they get. IMO one of the problems is that the young male refugees have to hang uselessly around while they wait whether they will get asylum or not and thus the feeling of being useless and frustration grows. So why not recruit them for stuff where the towns other wise don't really have the money to employ workers? That would help everybody. But for that, the laws would need to be modified.

First of all, I was not and have not been talking about the Turks or the Tamils. They're not the issue here. Secondly, I didn't ask about experiences with immigrants. Obviously the vast majority of experiences with immigrants are going to be positive or neutral ones. That's not the issue here. And, of course, those genuinely in need of help and those who have suffered terrible things should be helped when possible. But that's neither what I was talking about.

My question was that where goes the limit. What is the point where we have to put all that good stuff, all the good experiences aside and deal with the evil minority, because their actions have become so somber? For the sake of argument, say that terrorist with background in North Africa or the Middle East killed 10 million European civilians next year. Now, obviously pretty much every European would at that point go "*bleep* it, we've got to stop this now, no matter what it takes or means for the well-meaning majority of those people".

For me, we've reached the point where some more serious action is needed than telling immigrant girls to go to their swimming classes.

And no one here I've asked has provided an answer to the question that where the limit goes for them. It leaves me thinking that people in here simply accept this wave of terrorism as the current norm that we just have to live with, no matter the number of casualties. But I don't.

I can undestand Art Morte's point about the limit of people you let in. Europe is at peace and this peace must be protected. Countries like Spain, Italy, Greece are struggling economically and having too much people coming in is not going to help them. The people who come in (often illegally) are also going to be mistreated. What's the point of letting too many people in if they are going to live in so bad conditions. For insance I read that Germany has let in 1 million people ? Isn't too much too fast ? The best idea imo would be to spread them all over Europe. Help them today and they will be add value to the society in 1 or 2 generations just like the Italians, Irish, jewish ... in the US.

Taht being said, you just can't close the door to the people seeking help. Otherwise you're condemning them to death or a miserable life. There are smart and great people amongst the ayslums seekers even if there are also killers.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/07/27/world/human-toll-of-terror-attacks.html

Decent read.

Spoiler:

LeBéninois wrote:The best idea imo would be to spread them all over Europe.

That's what Angela Merkel suggested and asked, but there was vehement resistance of most of the other European countries.

Art Morte wrote:
My question was that where goes the limit. What is the point where we have to put all that good stuff, all the good experiences aside and deal with the evil minority, because their actions have become so somber? For the sake of argument, say that terrorist with background in North Africa or the Middle East killed 10 million European civilians next year. Now, obviously pretty much every European would at that point go "*bleep* it, we've got to stop this now, no matter what it takes or means for the well-meaning majority of those people".

For me, we've reached the point where some more serious action is needed than telling immigrant girls to go to their swimming classes.

And no one here I've asked has provided an answer to the question that where the limit goes for them. It leaves me thinking that people in here simply accept this wave of terrorism as the current norm that we just have to live with, no matter the number of casualties. But I don't.

There is no limit.
You happy?

Europe will close their border, NA and ME will close their oil supplies. Europe's done right there.

zigra wrote:

Art Morte wrote:
My question was that where goes the limit. What is the point where we have to put all that good stuff, all the good experiences aside and deal with the evil minority, because their actions have become so somber? For the sake of argument, say that terrorist with background in North Africa or the Middle East killed 10 million European civilians next year. Now, obviously pretty much every European would at that point go "*bleep* it, we've got to stop this now, no matter what it takes or means for the well-meaning majority of those people".

For me, we've reached the point where some more serious action is needed than telling immigrant girls to go to their swimming classes.

And no one here I've asked has provided an answer to the question that where the limit goes for them. It leaves me thinking that people in here simply accept this wave of terrorism as the current norm that we just have to live with, no matter the number of casualties. But I don't.

There is no limit.
You happy?

OK.

One of the guy who killed the priest in Rouen, France had a personality disorder since his childhood, was excluded from scholl at 12 and was obsessed with Syria. He was 19yo and had already tried to go there twice.
I wish he would have succeeded.

Unique wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:I think while Germany as a whole can be just as cynical as any country, there are at least some mechanisms in place that show that some time ago, some people learned a bit from the past. Hence our very generous laws concerning people seeking political asylum, or war refugees.

just a question here and I'm not asking it to get into a argument but would you be willing to stand in front of the familys of the people hurt and killed and say what your saying on this forum.

Yes, I would.

Because justice and vengeance are sometimes very different things.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Unique wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:I think while Germany as a whole can be just as cynical as any country, there are at least some mechanisms in place that show that some time ago, some people learned a bit from the past. Hence our very generous laws concerning people seeking political asylum, or war refugees.

just a question here and I'm not asking it to get into a argument but would you be willing to stand in front of the familys of the people hurt and killed and say what your saying on this forum.

Yes, I would.

Because justice and vengeance are sometimes very different things.

not to a person that has just lost a loved one its not. Tbh if someone told me it's just bad luck that my family was killed by a bad apple I would do my best to take their head off.

Art Morte wrote:
My question was that where goes the limit. What is the point where we have to put all that good stuff, all the good experiences aside and deal with the evil minority, because their actions have become so somber? For the sake of argument, say that terrorist with background in North Africa or the Middle East killed 10 million European civilians next year. Now, obviously pretty much every European would at that point go "*bleep* it, we've got to stop this now, no matter what it takes or means for the well-meaning majority of those people".

For me, we've reached the point where some more serious action is needed than telling immigrant girls to go to their swimming classes.

And no one here I've asked has provided an answer to the question that where the limit goes for them. It leaves me thinking that people in here simply accept this wave of terrorism as the current norm that we just have to live with, no matter the number of casualties. But I don't.

I'll try to answer your question.

We've already reached the limit. Right about the 2nd or 3rd death was the point where we can't just go "this is coincidence" and look away. We have to do something.
I just don't agree with any of your suggestions as to what that "something" should be. I think closing the borders is cruel, so that's not an option.

I think putting a blanket of suspicion on all muslim immigrants is unconstitutional, fascist, and inhuman. So that's not an option.

And then, despite semi-agreeing with you on the point that one death is one too many, I just don't think this should be the burden of all immigrants. Or all asylum seekers. Or all muslims. However you wish to phrase it.

We know now, that the kid that went amok in Munich was probably closer to agreeing with Unique and you than he was to agreeing with RWO and me; yet somehow the two of us have to defend letting immigrants like the dickheads parents in the country?

Nutjobs come in all shapes ans sizes, and inequality in society breeds them. If you close the border to brown people, you'll get variations on the Unabomber or Breivik, if you keep 'em open and then mistreat those that come in, you'll get many variations on the asswipes that went on killing sprees in France.
And yes, you're probably right, if you keep the borders open and are super-nice to everybody you still probably will have one raging psychopath islamist killer like Mohammed Ata every once in a while.
But there is no stopping them.

We might as well spite them, if we can't stop them, and keep our tradition of democracy, civility, and equality intact, instead of sacrificing them so some populist twat like Johnson or Trump can update his shit C.V.;
To the degree this can ever be stopped, making all people more equal, not less, will IMHO do the most in that regard.

Unique wrote:not to a person that has just lost a loved one its not. Tbh if someone told me it's just bad luck that my family was killed by a bad apple I would do my best to take their head off.

That is why we have the "rule of law", not "rule of the most angry person with the biggest stick"; you have judges exactly  because of what you're saying.

What else are you suggesting? Legalizing vigilantism?

I'm not saying people can't be angry. I just say they can't be vigilantes.

The only way to 'fix' this would surely involve fixing the places where these refugees are coming from. But that can't fall on Europes shoulders alone. It's for the most part not our mess to clean up.

Plenty of asylum seekers fleeing these countries are young men and sooner or later with the help of Europe, those men should be standing their ground and helping to take their home back from the terrorists and corrupt powers.

But, it's a fantasy at this point. The bullshit will go on and on and on and it'll be up to Europe to deal with the problems.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Unique wrote:not to a person that has just lost a loved one its not. Tbh if someone told me it's just bad luck that my family was killed by a bad apple I would do my best to take their head off.

That is why we have the "rule of law", not "rule of the most angry person with the biggest stick"; you have judges exactly  because of what you're saying.

What else are you suggesting? Legalizing vigilantism?

I'm not saying people can't be angry. I just say they can't be vigilantes.

your saying you would tell a person that has just had family murdered that it don't matter about that and it's more important to keep bringing people in. What kind of person are you.

No of course it matters. But it can still matter without me condoning vengeance. Those are two entirely different things, grief and vengeance.
How does this not compute with you?

Mind you I don't necessarily expect you to agree, but I've been very clear, and you misunderstanding seems intentional at this point.

VivaStPauli wrote:No of course it matters. But it can still matter without me condoning vengeance. Those are two entirely different things, grief and vengeance.
How does this not compute with you?

Mind you I don't necessarily expect you to agree, but I've been very clear, and you misunderstanding seems intentional at this point.

let me tell you as a parent how I feel. I would rather see every living person in the Middle East die before I would see one of my kids die. And one day when you have kids you will feel the same. And I am understanding you. Your saying the rapes and murders are exceptable at the rate they are happening and bringing in more of them is more important.

And this is why in a democracy people like you don't get to decide.

And you're by now intentionally twisting my words like a jackass.

Not a single rape or murder is acceptable.
I just think vengeance doesn't un-kill or un-rape anyone, and your desire to avenge those wronged has no moral, ethical, or philosophical merit.

I can completely and 100% understand your desire for vengeance. And those who would harm those I love I would also want to harm. But in that instance I, too, should be stopped by the law. The rule of law, and justice in modern nations is not about vengeance, and it shouldn't be about vengeance.

Again; you don't have to agree with me, but at least stop twisting my words so your one-liners sound better.

Unique wrote:Your saying the rapes and murders are exceptable at the rate they are happening and bringing in more of them is more important.

First - neither murder nor rape are in any way acceptable, no matter by whom.

But as you brought up the rate, I have to disagree. When I was looking for the case with the 79 year old woman you mentioned, I was looking this up in a German media site and as it is usual they linked to related recent articles.

And even before you mentioned the "rate" I saw four different cases of women in that age (and even over!) raped (which I found absolutely shocking and horrific) by German men recently, among them a 36 year old family father (!) and two more committed by mentally unstable men in the 40es and one by a repeat offender who already raped a girl about 30 years ago.

I was really shocked that there were so many such cases in general, but only in tiny script and as short notice, while the one committed by the asylum seeker of course was featured far more prominently, probably because it would thus lead to far more clicks.

So even if each of these cases is one too many, it seems that the ones committed by "normal Germans" just get far less attention nowadays than the others by asylum seekers or "muslims", even though one of the victims even died after the attack.

Well I don't think anybody thinks we can stop the 'in house' problems right now. But if you have a house full of people, and some of the inhabitants are murderers/rapists, the best thing to do is probably not open the door to another crowd, with 1 or 2 more in among them.

As I said, the only real solution that doesn't involve closed borders (Hell even if that happened it doesn't account for those with ill intentions already in the Countries) is to fix the problem at the root. But a lot of that responsibility should fall on the able bodied refugees. Of course we should help but it's not up to us.


If your house is a mess you shouldn't turn to your neighbour and demand that he sorts it out whilst you sit in his garden with your head buried in the ground.