Copa América 2015

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:21 pm

@Casciavit wrote:
@jibers wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:Messi is a smart player, but I really am surprised as to why he refused to change up his game when it clearly wasn't working. Chile were making sure his back was facing the goal and when he did regain his balance and faced forward they slide tackled the ball off him.

Should have switched it up with off the ball runs or stay wide and actually play as a winger.


This was key. Wanted the ball too feet too often  and didn't help his team at all. Embarrassing game from him tbh.


Exactly. Their was a moment during the end of the game where Argentina got a counter from a corner and Pastore was running with the ball. Instead of moving away from Pastore and continuing his run he instead went closer to him. I was bemused. And tbh it goes to show what type of player he's become these days.

Yes affected by that very dangerous and potentially incurable disease called LAZINESS .

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Post by jibers on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:23 pm

Messi let himself down and played like he was in the 13/14 season. I'm glad my predicted Chile win happened because they are/were much better than Argentina. Good thing for Messi is that he can go back home to Barcelona and be comforted by the club. The eternal Maradona comparisons will never die.

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:23 pm

@Doc wrote:Also, I don't find this edition of Argentina is any better than other editions. They are more talented than their opponents including Chile (oddly enough) but best squad of all time or even the past 20 years?! Not in my opinion...

Argentina squad going to Japan/South Korea for 2002 World Cup had the following:
Crespo, Batistuta, Ayala, Pochentino, Sorin, Veron, Zanetti, Claudio Lopez, Almeyda, Placente, Gustavo Lopez, Simeone, Aimar, Kily Gonzalez and Gallardo.

Riquelme, Di Alessandro, Saviola, Tevez and then wonderkid Fernando Cavenaghi (now nomad striker, also subject to correction, just remember he was highly rated at River) were all left out.

Argentina have been loaded before and would probably be loaded after. Just, you know, not even Messi can prevent their disappointing ways.

Yes the Argentina teams that you mentioned had better overall balance but they didn't have a Maradona or a Messi. So even with less overall quality with Messi around people's expectations would be just as high, if not more.

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:28 pm

@guest_07 wrote:
@titosantill wrote:i totally forgot about that 02 squad, that team too should be disappointed for not getting out the first round of that world cup. batistuta was on his last legs but the depth and talent on that team, it was absolutely shameful....another thing about international tournaments, u can have all the depth, but it only helps in a long drawn out season. in tournaments where u need a moment of genius more than anything, depth can sometimes hardly matter. aside from the goal keeper, argentina in 2002 must have at least 2 fantastic players in every position (btw saviola wasn't called up, i think the coach said he was too young or something to that effect. neither was tevez, he hand't started making his name yet)


bielsa regarding the riquelme that been left out from the 2002 wc squad:

Bielsa-Riquelme: A saga nearing its final chapter

   For some strange reasons, Marcelo Bielsa, the Argentine national coach, seems to give a knock out to Juan Roman Riquelme, the Boca superstar and the South American player of the year. Roman is an idol, humble, and the most important of all, he is a great person. It seems that Bielsa is following the path of Cesar Luis Menotti for leaving Diego Armando Maradona out of the 1978 squad.

   It seems that Bielsa does not give any importance to the local championship in Argentina. It seems that he has ignored the accomplishments of Juan Roman Riquelme. Riquelme is actually the best footballer in South America. He has proven it to the whole world. Now, one has to question Bielsa for leaving him out of the squad that will face Germany on April 17th. It does not matter if Argentina do have players such as Veron, Aimar, Gallardo. Today, Riquelme is the best Argentine player on the planet; many sports journalists will agree with me. It seems that for a player to earn Bielsa’s confidence, he must be playing in Europe. This is a nonsense approach taken by the Argentina coach.

   Riquelme has played against the Luis Figo, Raul, and Makelele of Real Madrid. In the 2000 Intercontinental cup against Real Madrid, Roman displayed a magnificent performance and earned Boca Juniors, the championship trophy. In the 2001 Intercontinental Cup against Bayern Munich, Riquelme had given the game to Boca in the first few minutes, but el Chelo Delgado could not finish these golden opportunities. Although Boca lost the championship trophy, Riquelme was up to the task and played very well against the Jeremies, the Kahn, the Kuffour of the Bayern Munich team. Today, It is fair to question Bielsa's decision for not calling Riquelme.

   One might say well, Argentina has many talented players and Bielsa does not have to call Riquelme. If we have to judge based on talent alone, Riquelme is clearly at the top of the list. In Bielsa’s press conference, he stated that the list against Germany does not exclude any player from going to the World Cup that does not get the call today. It seems that Bielsa is playing with people’s intelligence thinking that he is addressing his remarks to an idiotic audience. It is not the time to put a spin on the Riquelme situation. It is time for Bielsa to be honest and let the Argentine fans know that Riquelme won’t be in the World Cup. If Riquelme does not go to this World Cup, Bielsa will clearly do a disfavor to the people of Argentina. In Argentina, Juan Roman Riquelme, does have the status of Diego Armando Maradona. In Argentina, Juan Roman Riquelme, brings passion to the fans of Boca Juniors and joy to the people. In the world, he is praised by Ronaldo, Maradona, Raul, Roberto Carlos, and many others. Roman does not like to talk. He mostly does his talking on the field. He has been playing without a contract for Boca Juniors for more than two years; yet, he has still shown up for practice on time and has given his best on the soccer field.

   Besides being a football player, Juan Roman Riquelme is also a great person. He is humble, responsible, and a team player. He is a joy to coach. What impresses me the most about Riquelme is that the way he comforts himself in public. During the award ceremony for the 2001 South American Football player of the year, Riquelme stated that: “There’s no other trophy more important than the trophy of the people.” Coming from a family of 11, he has also provided for his brothers, sisters and parents.

   It will be quite devastating for Riquelme not to make the World Cup. But, Roman will have another chance, and will move on. After what he has accomplished during his young 23 years, there’s no excuse for Bielsa not to call him. There’s no excuse whatsoever. Yes, there’s Veron; yes, there is Aimar; and yes, there’s Gallardo. Why not a Riquelme? Is that because he is not playing for some European team?. Is that because he is playing in the national league of his country? If this is Bielsa’s hypothesis for not selecting Riquelme, it will be a total disgrace to his country. Don’t think that I don’t applaud Bielsa’s work with the Argentine national team, but there are some players that deserve to be in the World Cup after what they have proved on the field. A player like Riquelme earns that spot. Riquelme earns it, Bielsa! He deserves to be in Korea/Japan.

   Perhaps, I could understand why Menotti did not call Maradona at 17 years old, but at 23, Riquelme shows that he is a mature young man and a football hero in Argentina. Certain coaches are making some decisions that fans cannot seem to understand. It seems that Bielsa is following the path of Scolari for leaving out Romario from the Brazilian squad. Romario and Riquelme are respectively the two best South American players for 2000 and 2001. These two best players are likely not to be part of the 2002 World Cup due to Scolari and Bielsa's decisions. I hope that national pressure will force these coaches to call these players. They earn it on the field and they deserve to be there.

   No matter what happens, these players will continue to support their national team and we will have the opportunity to see Riquelme in 2006, but we may not see Romario again. It is indeed quite a dilemma to many fans in the world and to the people of Argentina and Brazil, but again the decision of the coach must be respected one way or the other. I can’t wait to see the list announced by Bielsa and Scolari. Sooner or later we will find out. I can guarantee you that there will be some injustice. But, it is up to the fans to put pressure on the national coach.

   On the injury of David Beckham, I hope that he does recover in time for the World Cup. It is unfortunate what had happened to him, and too bad that it was caused by an Argentine player. David is a great player and thus the fans from all over the world wish him a great recovery before the World Cup starts. From all of us from worldcuparchive.com, we are looking forward to seeing you defending the colors of England in Korea/Japan. Let’s hope that we won’t hear any of the injuries before the World Cup and the players will play in a precautionary manner to protect their opponents from these devastating injuries.

http://www.planetworldcup.com/GUESTS/pierre20020415.html

I didn't know these details. Thanks for posting.

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Post by zigra on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:29 pm

Chile wins their first CA.
80% of the written stuff is about Messi. Is he the goat or not. Chile winning is a nice footnote though.

I'd be happy for Messi to win a trophy with Argentina but I'm happy Chile won yesterday. Can't stand this bs of reducing everything to a contest of one or 2 players anymore. *bleep* your "Neymar vs Messi"-tournament.

Besides with all the bs about Messi: Just let him finish his damn career and then start comparing him to other retired players. He's what? 28? He can easily play in another 5 international tournaments (CA'16,19,23 and WC'18,22). Can't understand why there are so many people who can't even enjoy watching him play because they always hope for him to fail.
Whatever.....


Last edited by zigra on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:31 pm

@guest_07 wrote:
@windkick wrote:As a neutral, I honestly thought it was two teams that were playing there asses off and both did all possible to prevent the other from doing anything significant in attack for long stretches. Hats off to Chile for that performance and once it got to the PK's, with the crowd behind them I didn't think Argentina would have anything left emotionally to give at that point.

Really sucks for Messi going forward, knowing he could of had a World Cup and a Copa America back to back and fell short. I know the "Messi is over rated until he wins with Argentina" haters are out in full swing, but again as a neutral when on the National level I can't help but feel for Argentina and it's fans. I couldn't imagine the heart break I would have if my NT got that close to glory two consecutive summers and lost.

As far as the haters eating this up and bashing on Messi and all that, I find it pretty ridiculous just how everyone was in awe of him just the game before this, and during the 2nd half of the league in all 3 tournaments. The guys human and can be stopped, my real question marks are actually on the the other Argentina forwards. I mean a team with Kun, di Maria, Lavezzi, Pastore and then Higuain and they hardly get anything going on attack? Messi had like 2-3 guys in his zone at all times, yet some how the other guys can't get nothing going? And it wasn't just this game, it's been going on since the World Cup, Argentina seemed to fix it's back line and now has a great defense but it's once terrifying attacking hardly scores anymore. And no that's not Messi's fault that Argentina's entire attack hasn't been scoring.


that's the problem i as an argentina team fan witness with this team from 2000 till now, nobody stepped up when their best player been neutralized, even though with some talented players as teammate

it happen with riquelme, it happen again with messi

So true. Argentina just don't give up this one man mentality. If we had taken a leaf out of the books of the last three world champions we would have realized that the days of the Maradona one man show are long gone.

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Post by Harmonica on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:33 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@ahmad25 wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:

I don't doubt Messi's talent one slightest bit but being the best that can possibly be is about a little more than talent. Does Messi lack just a little bit in terms of heart and mental toughness in the tightest, hardest and most crucial of occasions? Maybe having top quality players in Barcelona alongside him, some of whom are marginally superior to him in terms of heart and mental toughness, makes us rarely see these shortcomings there but with the national team even though there are a few players like Mascherano who have as much heart and toughness as possible, not having as much talent as Barca, exposes these shortcomings of Messi all the more.

Maradona was Maradona not just for his talent but also for his determination, fighting spirit, mental toughness and leadership (ability to drive his team and bring the best out of others). Maybe in spite of being just as talented if not more Messi can never be Maradona and maybe this is the reason for it.

Maybe this is just a knee jerk reaction from me. Maybe more. I don't know and maybe will never know.
actually there was no space to play. Chile players worked like horse and triple marked messi. There was no any moment that i would think "messi could do better there". As soon as ball reached him 2-3 players pressed and pushed him. In this situations team play would be useful but argentina has no team play. All of them are overrated headless chickens with 0 passing ability except messi and aguero. Thats why i dont rate this so called super stars team highly. Average teams outhsine them even Iran made them to look like a joke


Yes they did but I think things could have looked a little different if Messi had taken the proverbial bull by the horns so to say. If instead of cowering down he had shown more heart and running (both on and especially off the ball) and maybe spoken a little more to his team mates then they would have rallied alongside him. The inspiration was missing. Argentina do not have anyone else and they only look at Messi for inspiration. If he is dull then we are dull. The game's greats had one quality that Messi lacks - bringing the best out of team mates. About Messi of all people I think Juan Sebastian Veron said it best. I am quoting below his words in bold.

"You have to leave Messi to do his own thing. He will never be a Maradona and drive the team."

Strangely after all these years of watching Messi I am struggling to think of even one match in which he drove his team. He is always about exceptional individual brilliance, the great one twos, the visionary passes, the memorable dribbles, the great goals, etc. but there have never been that much about co-ordination and drive. Most of the times his talent makes these other things meaningless but there are those times when I think it's these things that make the difference between winning and losing.
That's a myth, Messi has carried Argentina and Barcelona far beyond what Maradona ever did in his teams.

Swap Valdano with Higuain and Messi has a World Cup and Copa America, and "Maradona never performed for Argentina."
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Post by zigra on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:36 pm

Sports about winning, just get the *bleep* over it.

But all that carrying bs is just that anyway.
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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:42 pm

@zigra wrote:Chile wins their first CA.
80% of the written stuff is about Messi. Is he the goat or not. Chile winning is a nice footnote though.

I'd be happy for Messi to win a trophy with Argentina but I'm happy Chile won yesterday. Can't stand this bs of reducing everything to a contest of one or 2 players anymore. *bleep* your "Neymar vs Messi"-tournament.

Besides with all the bs about Messi: Just let him finish his damn career and then start comparing him to other retired players. He's what? 28? He can easily play in another 5 international tournaments (CA'16,19,23 and WC'18,22). Can't understand why there are so many people who can't even enjoy watching him play because they always hope for him to fail.
Whatever.....

You make a valid point but considering that Chile had never won a major international trophy in their history and have never been one of the international football superpowers, it beggars the question why does Argentina always come up short?

People will probably start by blaming the coaches. In 2002 we had Marcelo Bielsa who is highly regarded for so many reasons but still flopped at key moments with Argentina. In 2006 we had Jose Pekerman who has his merits but committed harakiris at the wrong times. Then we had Coco Basile who made the team play beautifully but wasn't updated with the modern game. Then we had Diego Maradona (Smile) who was more a roach than a coach. Then we had Sergio Batista who had done very well at youth level but couldn't cut it at the senior level. Then we had Alejandro Sabella who was one of the most tactically astute ones we could have hoped to have but his style was negative and he was vilified after the final, to some extent unfairly. Now we have Tata Martino who after his Barca stint just about everyone loves to hate. Yet it is this Tata Martino who brought so much out of Paraguay. Now if Jorge Sampaoli becomes the Argentina coach then I am almost betting that he will flop and his incredible Copa victory with Chile will be forgotten.

Are all these coaches just supreme idiots? No the troubles run much deeper and I don't claim to understand them particularly well. As is stands Argentina have forgotten how to win and if and when we will again learn it I have no idea.

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Post by futbol on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:48 pm

Copa América 2015 - Page 31 M33kmuht


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Post by Harmonica on Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:09 pm

whoscored top 10 of CA15

Copa América 2015 - Page 31 CXTfcbJ

Official MoM

4 Messi
3 Vidal
2 Guerrero

Did Messi decline from MVP-award or why didn't they announce it?

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Post by Ganso on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:28 pm

https://www.facebook.com/kelthiago/videos/887267364678770/

Laughing
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Post by KnoccOut on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:48 pm

Argentina has too many politics within the teams.. they could of took Riquelme to the world cup in 2010 but Maradona fell out with him including.. Augero and co.

Then you have the coaches.. always some moron in charge.. Pekerman was good until he lost his mind and pulled some dumb move in 2006 WC.

Now they have Tata who's all kinds of lost dont even know where to start.. Messi is asked to do too much.. and its not working... the midfield sucks.

All gonna go down hill from here... they had their chancea to win 2 major tournaments...
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Post by gnrfan on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:40 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@ahmad25 wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:

I don't doubt Messi's talent one slightest bit but being the best that can possibly be is about a little more than talent. Does Messi lack just a little bit in terms of heart and mental toughness in the tightest, hardest and most crucial of occasions? Maybe having top quality players in Barcelona alongside him, some of whom are marginally superior to him in terms of heart and mental toughness, makes us rarely see these shortcomings there but with the national team even though there are a few players like Mascherano who have as much heart and toughness as possible, not having as much talent as Barca, exposes these shortcomings of Messi all the more.

Maradona was Maradona not just for his talent but also for his determination, fighting spirit, mental toughness and leadership (ability to drive his team and bring the best out of others). Maybe in spite of being just as talented if not more Messi can never be Maradona and maybe this is the reason for it.

Maybe this is just a knee jerk reaction from me. Maybe more. I don't know and maybe will never know.
actually there was no space to play. Chile players worked like horse and triple marked messi. There was no any moment that i would think "messi could do better there". As soon as ball reached him 2-3 players pressed and pushed him. In this situations team play would be useful but argentina has no team play. All of them are overrated headless chickens with 0 passing ability except messi and aguero. Thats why i dont rate this so called super stars team highly. Average teams outhsine them even Iran made them to look like a joke


Yes they did but I think things could have looked a little different if Messi had taken the proverbial bull by the horns so to say. If instead of cowering down he had shown more heart and running (both on and especially off the ball) and maybe spoken a little more to his team mates then they would have rallied alongside him. The inspiration was missing. Argentina do not have anyone else and they only look at Messi for inspiration. If he is dull then we are dull. The game's greats had one quality that Messi lacks - bringing the best out of team mates. About Messi of all people I think Juan Sebastian Veron said it best. I am quoting below his words in bold.

"You have to leave Messi to do his own thing. He will never be a Maradona and drive the team."

Strangely after all these years of watching Messi I am struggling to think of even one match in which he drove his team. He is always about exceptional individual brilliance, the great one twos, the visionary passes, the memorable dribbles, the great goals, etc. but there have never been that much about co-ordination and drive. Most of the times his talent makes these other things meaningless but there are those times when I think it's these things that make the difference between winning and losing.



Hundred percent this. I am a huge Messi fan and would say he might well be the most talented player of all time, but just seemed listless in some situations. Pretty much he needs a steady supply of the ball played to his feet. Instead of making runs, making himself available he was trudging around in a final....I just don't understand. I could forgive sloppiness. God knows the refereeing was horrible, and the rest of the seleccion wasn't doing their part...but at least make room for yourself, demand the ball, try something...don't walk around moping for ffs. It reminds me of a match I saw of Maradona with Napoli vs Real Madrid. Napoli lost the match, and Maradona was tightly marked. Not much of what he was trying was coming off, but for 90 mins he tries to get on the ball and make plays, pushing his team forward. That is what leadership is about...if after that it doesnt work out then fine...you did what you could...but Messi's attitude yesterday was indefensible.
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Post by gnrfan on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:47 pm

I'd like to note that we saw something similar in the classicos this season. When Barca's midfield was getting overrun, messi simply faded from the picture. Noticeably when Busquets came in for Masch and Barca's passing stabilized, he started seeing more of the ball and showing his brilliance.
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Post by Cruijf on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:48 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:

Strangely after all these years of watching Messi I am struggling to think of even one match in which he drove his team.


CL 2010/11 Semi Final First Leg: Real Madrid 0-2 Barcelona

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Post by jibers on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:01 pm


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Post by Harmonica on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:30 pm

@Cruijf wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:

Strangely after all these years of watching Messi I am struggling to think of even one match in which he drove his team.


CL 2010/11 Semi Final First Leg: Real Madrid 0-2 Barcelona
CL 14-15 SF Barcelona 3-0 Bayern Munchen...

"I can't think anybody influencing so many big games in such a regular basis, whether he's scoring them, or coming up with a killer pass. He for me is head and shoulders above, for me, Maradona and Ronaldo and old Ronaldo, and anyone else you want to mention." - Graeme Souness (in CL-final 14-15).
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Post by M99 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:52 pm

https://i.imgur.com/izbI6of.png

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Post by ahmad25 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:09 pm

4 threads and all of them are about Messi Very Happy
I wish maradona didnt exist so nobody would care about messi's NT Rolling Eyes
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:17 pm

@M99 wrote:https://i.imgur.com/izbI6of.png
I would've but Charles instead of Vargas

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Post by Viru on Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:20 pm

Is it true that messi reject the Player of the tournament trophy

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:25 pm

@gnrfan wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:
@ahmad25 wrote:
actually there was no space to play. Chile players worked like horse and triple marked messi. There was no any moment that i would think "messi could do better there". As soon as ball reached him 2-3 players pressed and pushed him. In this situations team play would be useful but argentina has no team play. All of them are overrated headless chickens with 0 passing ability except messi and aguero. Thats why i dont rate this so called super stars team highly. Average teams outhsine them even Iran made them to look like a joke


Yes they did but I think things could have looked a little different if Messi had taken the proverbial bull by the horns so to say. If instead of cowering down he had shown more heart and running (both on and especially off the ball) and maybe spoken a little more to his team mates then they would have rallied alongside him. The inspiration was missing. Argentina do not have anyone else and they only look at Messi for inspiration. If he is dull then we are dull. The game's greats had one quality that Messi lacks - bringing the best out of team mates. About Messi of all people I think Juan Sebastian Veron said it best. I am quoting below his words in bold.

"You have to leave Messi to do his own thing. He will never be a Maradona and drive the team."

Strangely after all these years of watching Messi I am struggling to think of even one match in which he drove his team. He is always about exceptional individual brilliance, the great one twos, the visionary passes, the memorable dribbles, the great goals, etc. but there have never been that much about co-ordination and drive. Most of the times his talent makes these other things meaningless but there are those times when I think it's these things that make the difference between winning and losing.



Hundred percent this. I am a huge Messi fan and would say he might well be the most talented player of all time, but just seemed listless in some situations. Pretty much he needs a steady supply of the ball played to his feet. Instead of making runs, making himself available he was trudging around in a final....I just don't understand. I could forgive sloppiness. God knows the refereeing was horrible, and the rest of the seleccion wasn't doing their part...but at least make room for yourself, demand the ball, try something...don't walk around moping for ffs. It reminds me of a match I saw of Maradona with Napoli vs Real Madrid. Napoli lost the match, and Maradona was tightly marked. Not much of what he was trying was coming off, but for 90 mins he tries to get on the ball and make plays, pushing his team forward. That is what leadership is about...if after that it doesnt work out then fine...you did what you could...but Messi's attitude yesterday was indefensible.


Thanks. Excellent comments. I agree with every word. The part in bold is what irritates the most.

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Post by titosantill on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:42 pm

its unfair to say he has never driven his team, if you are an argentina fan and you say that, i can understand that to a certain degree (even though it still is a bit of a ridiculous statement, considering his role in things like qualifiers), but at barcelona, to my disgust, i think he has driven that team quite well, and if you have the talent he has, you don't need to always shout and yell and do the extra stuff, "what's understood doesn't need to be explained". the guy has been carrying that team for like 7 years now, yes, he has a better support cast that have won international tournaments without him, but its a stretch to say he doesn't drive the team.....he does it in his own way. guys look better because he's on the team and defenders have to account for him, i seriously doubt the effectiveness of that team in a long drawn out season without him or his drive on it

damn i can't believe i'm defending messi on this one, he may not be diego, but its a bit unfair to say he doesn't drive the team, people have various approaches to leadership, one of my favorite players ruud gullit was considered to cool to be a leader, and his persona could give him off as someone who didn't have "drive", but that was never the case....u can slate him for not having the best moments at copa america, but footballers who lack drive never become top athletes at the highest level
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Post by Harmonica on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:46 pm

@Viru wrote:Is it true that messi reject the Player of the tournament trophy
Like a baws. Proud

http://elcomercio.pe/deporte-total/copa-america-2015/lionel-messi-rechazo-premio-al-mejor-jugador-copa-america-noticia-1823640

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Post by Perucho21 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:06 pm

Will CONMEBOL still give out the award?

I wouldn't think they'd give it to Vidal. He played great but was lucky to still be playing lol

Probably Alexis or Cueva

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