ISIS terror attacks around the world

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Post by rwo power Mon 18 Jul 2016, 15:18

rincon wrote:Should the world have shut the door to the european immigrants that fled during WW1 and 2? At that point europeans were busy killing each other by the thousands/millions and the outside world still welcomed them. Civilians fleeing the Nazi's during WW2 is no different from civilians fleeing ISIS.
I think this is part of the reason why Germany doesn't want to close the borders against refugees. My paternal grandmother fled thousands of kilometres with her children through Silesia and more and she was welcomed by strangers on the way. If she would have been sent away and back to the warzone, you might not have me writing here.

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Post by Unique Mon 18 Jul 2016, 15:25

not sure how it works in other countries but in England imagrants come to the country. they get to jump a very long queue for housing. get given a job. if no jobs are going then they get lots of benefits. they get free housing. free health care. and free education for any kids they might have. and they are free people that are not told how to eat sleep and live so I would say they get treated very well over here pauli Thumbs up
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Post by rincon Mon 18 Jul 2016, 15:42

Art Morte wrote:
A fact is that in the last couple of years hundreds of European civilians have been killed by terrorists who are either North African of Middle Eastern, or European citizens with background in those areas. I'm not willing to take more of them in, not in these circumstances. The price has become too high to pay. And I'm not hearing anyone put forward any other suggestions as to how to solve or ease this terrible problem, either. What's the limit to you guys? How many European civilians have to die before you are willing to do something about it? We're in the hundreds now. Thousands? Tens of thousands? More?


I'll throw the question back at you. How many human beings have to die before we do something about it?

Is that your final solution? close the borders and then what? let the middle east and north africa self destruct? That is exactly what they want. What if ISIS keeps getting stronger and becomes a real power due to neglect from Europe and the west? They have made it so clear that Europe is one of their targets, it doesn't get more explicit than them saying it straight up that they will continue to do this and escalate things.

This doesn't go away by locking the room to your door and continuing your daily life. The crisis happening over there is a global problem with real consequences to all of us. We can like it or not, but we have to be proactive. Thinking that only European lives matter is part of the problem.


Art Morte wrote:
And I'm not hearing anyone put forward any other suggestions as to how to solve or ease this terrible problem, either.


Unique put forward a bunch of ideas, read those.

My suggestions? So many more people are dying at their hands in MENA than in Europe. We are victims too of course, but so are they, and by a huge margin they are suffering more than we are. Help the victims and help fight the problem over there, not just in the streets of France. Thats my suggestion if I have any say.
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Post by rincon Mon 18 Jul 2016, 15:57

rwo power wrote:
rincon wrote:Should the world have shut the door to the european immigrants that fled during WW1 and 2? At that point europeans were busy killing each other by the thousands/millions and the outside world still welcomed them. Civilians fleeing the Nazi's during WW2 is no different from civilians fleeing ISIS.
I think this is part of the reason why Germany doesn't want to close the borders against refugees. My paternal grandmother fled thousands of kilometres with her children through Silesia and more and she was welcomed by strangers on the way. If she would have been sent away and back to the warzone, you might not have me writing here.


I wouldn't be here either. My maternal grandparents fled Italy during the war too.
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Post by DuringTheWar Mon 18 Jul 2016, 16:53

Unique wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Agreed with rincon. If history taught us anything about immigration it is that the better you treat your immigrants, the less of a problem they'll turn out for you.

Not once have I seen a society that has welcomed migrants with open arms and no judgment, and has then been shafted by them. That's just not a thing that happens.
so be nice or they will kill you. Thumbs up




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Post by DuringTheWar Mon 18 Jul 2016, 17:22

Unique wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Agreed with rincon. If history taught us anything about immigration it is that the better you treat your immigrants, the less of a problem they'll turn out for you.

Not once have I seen a society that has welcomed migrants with open arms and no judgment, and has then been shafted by them. That's just not a thing that happens.
so be nice or they will kill you. Thumbs up


Btw this is a lot like pathological altruism. Very common in the Western countries (not so much elsewhere)

A definition: Pathological altruism is sincere attempts to help others that instead harms others or oneself and where this harm could have been reasonably anticipated. It is often caused by cognitive and/or emotional biases that blind people to the potentially harmful consequences of their actions.

For example there was a case in England recently, where a Latvian convicted murderer, travelled to England and crushed a 14 year old girl to death. Afterwards her parents came out defending the right of freedom of movement for criminals.
So to be clear, they not only supported the free movement of people, they supported the free movement of convicted murderers, one of whom travelled to England and crushed their daughter to death.
It's inexplicable, nobody can convince me it isn't some sort of mental virus.
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Post by Unique Mon 18 Jul 2016, 17:25

DuringTheWar wrote:
Unique wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Agreed with rincon. If history taught us anything about immigration it is that the better you treat your immigrants, the less of a problem they'll turn out for you.

Not once have I seen a society that has welcomed migrants with open arms and no judgment, and has then been shafted by them. That's just not a thing that happens.
so be nice or they will kill you. Thumbs up


Btw this is a lot like pathological altruism. Very common in the Western countries (not so much elsewhere)

A definition: Pathological altruism is sincere attempts to help others that instead harms others or oneself and where this harm could have been reasonably anticipated. It is often caused by cognitive and/or emotional biases that blind people to the potentially harmful consequences of their actions.

For example there was a case in England recently, where a Latvian convicted murderer, travelled to England and crushed a 14 year old girl to death. Afterwards her parents came out defending the right of freedom of movement for criminals.
So to be clear, they not only supported the free movement of people, they supported the free movement of convicted murderers, one of whom travelled to England and crushed their daughter to death.
It's inexplicable, nobody can convince me it isn't some sort of mental virus.
yeah mate I saw that case. very sad only 14yo. Crying or Very sad
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Mon 18 Jul 2016, 17:29

Well in all fairness here in the UK Immigrants have had the good life for the most part. Treating them any better would involve us going to work 5 days a week and letting them move in to our homes rent free and paying for their holidays abroad.
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Post by Unique Mon 18 Jul 2016, 18:01

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Well in all fairness here in the UK Immigrants have had the good life for the most part. Treating them any better would involve us going to work 5 days a week and letting them move in to our homes rent free and paying for their holidays abroad.
I'm not sure anyone not from England will see what you did there Thumbs up
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Post by Nishankly Mon 18 Jul 2016, 19:38

Art Morte wrote:What's the limit to you guys? How many European civilians have to die before you are willing to do something about it? We're in the hundreds now. Thousands? Tens of thousands? More?


I really hope less than 0.0001% of the people think like this.
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Post by Art Morte Mon 18 Jul 2016, 20:25

rincon wrote:
Art Morte wrote:
A fact is that in the last couple of years hundreds of European civilians have been killed by terrorists who are either North African of Middle Eastern, or European citizens with background in those areas. I'm not willing to take more of them in, not in these circumstances. The price has become too high to pay. And I'm not hearing anyone put forward any other suggestions as to how to solve or ease this terrible problem, either. What's the limit to you guys? How many European civilians have to die before you are willing to do something about it? We're in the hundreds now. Thousands? Tens of thousands? More?


I'll throw the question back at you. How many human beings have to die before we do something about it?

Depends on what they're dying from, doesn't it? It's probably not feasible to somehow try to do more to reduce yearly deaths from trampoline accidents. Which deaths are you talking about here? To me, stronger measures than what are currently in place are needed to stop people in Europe dying from terrorist attacks.


Is that your final solution? close the borders and then what? let the middle east and north africa self destruct? That is exactly what they want. What if ISIS keeps getting stronger and becomes a real power due to neglect from Europe and the west? They have made it so clear that Europe is one of their targets, it doesn't get more explicit than them saying it straight up that they will continue to do this and escalate things.

This doesn't go away by locking the room to your door and continuing your daily life. The crisis happening over there is a global problem with real consequences to all of us. We can like it or not, but we have to be proactive. Thinking that only European lives matter is part of the problem.

Why do you think North Africa and the Middle East would self-destruct if Europe stopped taking people in from there? Europe is one of ISIS's main targets. Isn't it the logical solution to close the borders to their terrorists, instead of keeping them open for them? The West has been meddling in the Middle East for decades and never with the results that have been hoped for. It's time to learn the lesson get out of there. The people over there have to sort their shit out themselves, we cannot do it for them. Europe sorted their shit out as well before it entered the current time of peace.

I don't think that only European lives matter. But I'm not willing to put the peaceful Europe under such terror that, at the moment, is slaughtering hundreds of our civilians, where seemingly lasting peace has already been achieved.



Art Morte wrote:
And I'm not hearing anyone put forward any other suggestions as to how to solve or ease this terrible problem, either.


Unique put forward a bunch of ideas, read those.

My suggestions? So many more people are dying at their hands in MENA than in Europe. We are victims too of course, but so are they, and by a huge margin they are suffering more than we are. Help the victims and help fight the problem over there, not just in the streets of France. Thats my suggestion if I have any say.

Europe is not capable of helping everyone over there that needs help. Plus it's not a lasting solution anyway, to just take everyone into Europe. Especially when some of them come here to kill us. As for fighting the problem over there, like I said, that's what the West has been doing for decades, but it simply doesn't work.



Nishankly wrote:
Art Morte wrote:What's the limit to you guys? How many European civilians have to die before you are willing to do something about it? We're in the hundreds now. Thousands? Tens of thousands? More?


I really hope less than 0.0001% of the people think like this.

You reckon that 99.9999 of the people should think that European civilians should die from terrorism, then? What exactly do you mean by this? You make it sound like this wave of terrorism in Europe is acceptable, because it's happening elsewhere, too. I, on the other hand, want Europe to protect itself from this ghastly terrorism, for we shouldn't sacrifice a society that's once achieved peace just because not every society in the world has.
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Post by guest7 Mon 18 Jul 2016, 20:46

Art, closing the gates for immigrants won't stop anything. Most of the terrorists have been living the country itself and are insane from the start. None of the immigrants have been terrorists so far (I think, my memory might be bad here, but I'm 99% sure)
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Post by Nishankly Mon 18 Jul 2016, 21:15

I don't know about you Art, But personally at it should for most people regardless of the fact what is going down where, Each life is equally important.

Europe is finally getting the taste of the monsters they've help create and now people like you are apparently tired of it.

I don't believe in the coward ideology you have been spewing, Pretty much because my family has a history of military officers including my dad who served against all of this nonsense, You have no idea about these radical groups and what their final motives are and staying at home for a 100 years will only make your children/grandchildren suffer worse later on, The sooner you realize this it'll be good for all of us.

Also this European achieving peace argument Laughing

What peace? Europe has had a conflict every year upto the 21st century even after the world wars, Lets not even go into the eastern Europeans countries for now. The handful of your nations maintaining peace is valid for every continent.

If you achieve peace by slaughtering more people than the sands of Sahara to understand the meaning of peace i would not like my country or any other continent to go down that road regardless of the fact you still managed to drag us into of all that 70 years ago.

Anyways clearly you have an opinion which is your stand, Understood. Im out.
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Post by Unique Mon 18 Jul 2016, 21:40

the west didn't create radical Islamic extreamists. islam created radical Islamic extreamists. if the west created it then only the west would be targets.
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Post by LeBéninois Mon 18 Jul 2016, 21:53

The problem is just way to complex than just ''close the borders'' . You can't just close the door to people who are running away from monsters created partly due to the decisions of the West. No pity for those killers tho.



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Post by LeBéninois Mon 18 Jul 2016, 21:56

Unique wrote:the west didn't create radical Islamic extreamists. islam created radical Islamic extreamists. if the west created it then only the west would be targets.


Sure but thanks to the West they got stronger during the cold war. I don't have détails but the West have used those extremist for their interest (and like it or not most of us here are have gained from that). Now they are too strong, too dangerous and cancerous.
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Post by Art Morte Mon 18 Jul 2016, 21:56

guest7 wrote:Art, closing the gates for immigrants won't stop anything. Most of the terrorists have been living the country itself and are insane from the start. None of the immigrants have been terrorists so far (I think, my memory might be bad here, but I'm 99% sure)

This is true, but the recent terrorists or their parents have at some point been immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East. Since some of them are clearly now treating Europeans as enemies, I don't want Europe to take more in. We need to learn the lesson from places like France and Belgium. If we don't stop the increase now, it's only going to get worse, it seems. The time is not right, not in these circumstances.


Nishankly wrote:
Europe is finally getting the taste of the monsters they've help create and now people like you are apparently tired of it.

Europe has definitely been involved in some wars and conflicts in NA and the ME that probably should have not been fought. This latest meddling in Libya and then elsewhere has totally been a disaster. However, these have been carried out with consent from most of the international community and I certainly do not see it like you, that this wave of terrorism in Europe is somehow a justified result for the "monsters they've created".

You have no idea about these radical groups and what their final motives are and staying at home for a 100 years will only make your children/grandchildren suffer worse later on, The sooner you realize this it'll be good for all of us.

How so? The European nations that have "stayed home" the most, seem least likely to suffer a terrorist attack. Whereas the countries that have "gone out and about" are being targeted the most by these terrorists.


Also this European achieving peace argument Laughing

What peace? Europe has had a conflict every year upto the 21st century even after the world wars, Lets not even go into the eastern Europeans countries for now. The handful of your nations maintaining peace is valid for every continent.

If you achieve peace by slaughtering more people than the sands of Sahara to understand the meaning of peace i would not like my country or any other continent to go down that road regardless of the fact you still managed to drag us into of all that 70 years ago.

Europe is peaceful and safe, free of war and terror for over 99% of its citizens. Has been all of the 21th century. If that doesn't count as peaceful to you, your criteria is strict indeed. I'm not willing to sacrifice any of that peace to this scale of terrorist attacks on civilians that Europe is now facing from people with North African or Middle Eastern background. If this hostile tension between these parties is sufficiently decreased in the future, my opinion my change. But clearly we are not ready yet.

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Post by LeBéninois Mon 18 Jul 2016, 22:27

@Art
Concretely, how do you do that ?. Refugees are at your door ? What do you do ? You chase them ?

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Post by Lex Mon 18 Jul 2016, 22:45

Nishankly wrote:Europe is finally getting the taste of the monsters they've help create and now people like you are apparently tired of it
What a crass, insensitive comment. Yeah, go tell the parents of the ten murdered children in Nice that they got their just desserts, or the relatives of all the Paris theatre victims they had it coming because of something they had absolutely NO involvement with
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Post by Nishankly Mon 18 Jul 2016, 23:35

I was a bit rash their, I apologize but im pretty sure the Aleppo/Libyan/Iraqi/Bangladeshi/Afghan/Indian/Turkish/Egyptian/Pakistani/Yemeni citizens would respond just like the way you did for the same argument against them that has been going on in this thread.
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Post by Unique Tue 19 Jul 2016, 00:19

Lex wrote:
Nishankly wrote:Europe is finally getting the taste of the monsters they've help create and now people like you are apparently tired of it
What a crass, insensitive comment. Yeah, go tell the parents of the ten murdered children in Nice that they got their just desserts, or the relatives of all the Paris theatre victims they had it coming because of something they had absolutely NO involvement with
Thumbs up
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Post by Art Morte Tue 19 Jul 2016, 21:44

Just updating this neutrally in here that today an Afghan man attacked, with an ISIS flag found at his home, people on a train in Germany and a mother and her three daughters, aged 8, 12, and 14, were stabbed by a man of Moroccan origin in France.

But surely no measures to counter this are necessary.
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Post by LeBéninois Tue 19 Jul 2016, 22:06

Art Morte wrote:Just updating this neutrally in here that today an Afghan man attacked, with an ISIS flag found at his home, people on a train in Germany and a mother and her three daughters, Moroccan origin in France. aged 8, 12, and 14, were stabbed by a man of

But surely no measures to counter this are necessary.


The debate is more about what measures are necessary and what are the best ones.
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Post by Art Morte Tue 19 Jul 2016, 22:31

LeBéninois wrote:
Art Morte wrote:Just updating this neutrally in here that today an Afghan man attacked, with an ISIS flag found at his home, people on a train in Germany and a mother and her three daughters, Moroccan origin in France. aged 8, 12, and 14, were stabbed by a man of

But surely no measures to counter this are necessary.


The debate is more about what measures are necessary and what are the best ones.


What are necessary = apparently none, according to this forum.

What are the best ones = closing the borders to everyone from North Africa and the Middle East, to put a stop to the escalation of the problem.
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Post by LeBéninois Tue 19 Jul 2016, 22:39

Waht about people from North Africa and middle east already living in the west countries?. Most of the killing are made by people who were born/grew up in Europe.
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Post by RealGunner Tue 19 Jul 2016, 22:51

That kid was from Afghanistan Art. We'll have to close the borders from Asia as well now I suppose.
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