Why Pep Guardiola Might Not Be Totally Retarded

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:54 pm

Pep Guardiola.
You know I'm not a fan. This has two reasons, one of those reasons is his fault, the other not.

The second one, the reason I dislike Pep and that's not his fault: I just don't like his style. I don't enjoy watching possession-based football all that much. I like the smooth attacking transition both Barca and Bayern employ(ed) under his tutelage, but I don't like the shit that comes before and after; endless horizontal passing, f*cking triangles, reluctance to take any risks. This style is not any better nor any worse than any other, I just happen to dislike it. It's boring to me.

The first reason, the one that is his fault, is his strict adherence to his ideal footballing philosophy even when it doesn't seem to fit his current club. He supplanted established players with inferior ones because it allowed a game plan more close to what he envisioned, so he isn't really playing to the strengths of his squad, in my opinion, but rather opting to tweak the squad to better fit his plans. Most retardedly, moving Lahm to midfield, forcing him to play the vastly inferior Rafinha at RB, robbing the entire system of quite some width, as a secondary effect reducing the threat of Robben because Rafinha doesn't overlap as well as Lahm does, and even more to the point: between Schweisnteiger, Xabi, Kroos (well, he was there when Lahm was moved), Javi, and maybe even f*cking Thiago, there really is no need to move Lahm to midfield. Not that Lahm is bad there, it's just very unnecessary.

You've, for the most part, read my rants, so I'll leave it at this.

And now, why Pep might not be an utter idiot:
The Bayern Board have repeatedly stated they wanted a new club identity, and while the attention-grabbing of hiring a hollywood celeb as a coach is certainly part of it, they surely where also thinking of Bayern absorbing Peps philosophy. After all they must've known who they're getting in bed with. And they actually did this at a reasonable time, even if it probably means not winning the CL for another season or two:
- Schweinsteiger, constantly being injured, can be phased out of the squad
- the proper strikers are all gone by now, even the versatile Mandzukic was sold off for being still too much of a striker, the utmost amount of strikerdom BayPep are willing to accept is apparently Lewandowski, a man who, despite all his brilliance, is a shitty finisher.
- Dante is on the verge out, Javi has been injured for a very long time
This all leaves Pep with a squad where the slow(ish), and the allrounders, the true fighters, are leaving. He can now replace them all with those prancing pretty-boy fairies he loves so much. While I strongly disagree with this, if you're going this route, now might be the time.
And you can see they're doing this. Weiser is being allowed to leave for free, despite being rather promising, because he's "not developing", which is Pep-speech for being too direct a player. He likes Gaudino, a player more suited to that style.

So really, yes, Pep can completely change the Bayern philosophy and establish something new now. But, big hair butt-but, he has to have the time to do now.
If Bayern want any success in the near future, they need to either sack Pep now, or get him to stay for at least three more seasons. He's successfully dismantled the old, versatile, system, which hinged on players like Piggy, Gustavo, Javi, and Lahm, with very direct attacks through Robbery and Müller, if you wanted to revert to the old system, there would probably be quite a bit of damage done by now.

However, if you further the development, within two or three seasons, it could really click, Barca-style, having an entire squad of players actually suited to that style. So maybe Pep's not retarded, maybe he's got a plan.
But three seasons won't be enough for that. He needs more time.

I'd advise Bayern to push this. Extend by 3 years now, or sack him immediately. You know what my position on that would be.

Thoughts?
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Post by jibers Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:13 pm

Same thing I said about LVG to United. Either we sack him now or give him at least 3 seasons.

I agree with your point about more time but he has to look into the injury crisis. It ridiculous that he hasn't had a fully fit squad to choose from since he joined. It's not really Barca style though but Pep's style. The only thing I disagree on with him is moving Martinez away from the mf. The guy was arguably the best ball winner. Robbery needs to be replaced and I don't see how Bayern are going to do that. Their cycle is at an end.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:17 pm

jibers wrote:Robbery needs to be replaced and I don't see how Bayern are going to do that. Their cycle is at an end.


Agreed and a huge problem. That's why they went after Reus, and hard, but not hard enough because Ribéry was only 29 at the time. But Reus would've been a great replacement for Ribéry. Now who knows. Replacing Robben is one bloody tall order. I'd probably settle on not really doing that, giving the right flank to Müller, and getting another direct player for the left side. Tough to say who, though. Reus would've fit, Schürrle arguably stopped developing, so not him, Draxler is overhyped and, as such, meh, most good foreign wingers are even more expensive. They'll probably need to break the piggy bank to replace Ribéry either way, unless Pep and Götze come to an understanding where they compliment each other.
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Post by Dante Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:27 pm

I personally like Pep's vision and style . I think he has already planted solid foundations for his players to realise his ideas on a high level by now , so although i do agree that as far as Bayern is concerned , they should keep Pep around for longer , just not particularly or solely about that reason , i think he has already made his points well understood by now. Personally speaking , i think his players more than adapted to Pep , they flurish really. With that said , i also liked Heynckes' Bayern a lot . That Bayern was a very dangerous team .

I kinda agree that Heynckes way suited Bayern more , at least with this core of players . Their direct way , with incredible counter attacking capacity , combined with such excellent pace , be that on pressing , creating opportunities for goals , transitions .. it was amazing to watch really.

But they made a big decision when they went with Pep and i for once think it was the best decision they could have made , despite the success of his predecessor and i don't just mean the titles , the sporting side of things is equaly important . But , i also think Heynckes Bayern and their way are maybe a little too glorified after their success . Sure they were awesome and very strong , but it's not like they would sweep every title in existance just because of it anyway . I don't think they would have done any better if they were the same kind of team today tbh . And Pep's Bayern has been great since day 1 imo , sure they are yet to reclaim the Champions League , but there are no guarantees there whatsoever .

Pep's Bayern only got out of the competition by the 2 eventual winners , Real and this season by Barcelona . It says a lot really. I still don't understand why people bitch about Pep . He rules Bundesliga with Bayern , playing great football (unless you don't like his way) . Where's the shame losing to the 2 eventual winners in the semis? Again , it's probably because Heynckes Bayern is over glorified .

I see a more witty Bayern these days , willing to dominate with more than their sheer force of athleticism , but perhaps lacking in a few areas defensively and you're probably right with them not willing to take risks as often as they did at least. Not sure how they will fix that but i think the solution is time here. Not because of what Pep will do , but the players. Match after match they are becoming better at it and with the right additions , i don't see why Bayern can't find themselves in the CL final next season . They either do or not , i still rate Pep's Bayern a total success , despite losing important traits from Heynckes team . It became something else , which is to me , at the very least , equally impressive .
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Post by billy_gr Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:35 pm

Just get a loan and buy Messi - problem solved
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:38 pm

Ironically, as things stand now, Nerman would've helped a lot more than Götze does, simply because an LW right now is of more use to Bayern than a CAM.
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Post by Dante Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:39 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
jibers wrote:Robbery needs to be replaced and I don't see how Bayern are going to do that. Their cycle is at an end.


Agreed and a huge problem. That's why they went after Reus, and hard, but not hard enough because Ribéry was only 29 at the time. But Reus would've been a great replacement for Ribéry. Now who knows. Replacing Robben is one bloody tall order. I'd probably settle on not really doing that, giving the right flank to Müller, and getting another direct player for the left side. Tough to say who, though. Reus would've fit, Schürrle arguably stopped developing, so not him, Draxler is overhyped and, as such, meh, most good foreign wingers are even more expensive. They'll probably need to break the piggy bank to replace Ribéry either way, unless Pep and Götze come to an understanding where they compliment each other.


what issues are there with Gotze and Pep ?? Is it because he's not starting every single game or..

I also agree with what Jibers said about Javi Martinez. Injuries and what not , Pep doesn't use him like he's supposed to be and it's a shame really.
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Post by jibers Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:40 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
jibers wrote:Robbery needs to be replaced and I don't see how Bayern are going to do that. Their cycle is at an end.


Agreed and a huge problem. That's why they went after Reus, and hard, but not hard enough because Ribéry was only 29 at the time. But Reus would've been a great replacement for Ribéry. Now who knows. Replacing Robben is one bloody tall order. I'd probably settle on not really doing that, giving the right flank to Müller, and getting another direct player for the left side. Tough to say who, though. Reus would've fit, Schürrle arguably stopped developing, so not him, Draxler is overhyped and, as such, meh, most good foreign wingers are even more expensive. They'll probably need to break the piggy bank to replace Ribéry either way, unless Pep and Götze come to an understanding where they compliment each other.


That's another problem I have with Pep. For all the talk about being Cruyff's disciple, he is too much like van Gaal. Gotze seems very restricted under him. Why is Weiser being released?

Reus would be good but having no space in front limits him as his ball control is nowhere near Ribery. He would just run down the line and pass backwards lol. This is unless Pep starts playing with less horizontal passes. I don't think they should try and replace Robben, he is too unique. The only player that can replace him is Messi and he's on his way to United (:

Don't be surprised if Pep signs Pedro Laughing
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Post by jibers Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:50 pm

Dante wrote:I personally like Pep's vision and style . I think he has already planted solid foundations for his players to realise his ideas on a high level by now , so although i do agree that as far as Bayern is concerned , they should keep Pep around for longer , just not particularly or solely about that reason , i think he has already made his points well understood by now. Personally speaking , i think his players more than adapted to Pep , they flurish really. With that said , i also liked Heynckes' Bayern a lot . That Bayern was a very dangerous team .

I kinda agree that Heynckes way suited Bayern more , at least with this core of players . Their direct way , with incredible counter attacking capacity , combined with such excellent pace , be that on pressing , creating opportunities for goals , transitions .. it was amazing to watch really.

But they made a big decision when they went with Pep and i for once think it was the best decision they could have made , despite the success of his predecessor and i don't just mean the titles , the sporting side of things is equaly important . But , i also think Heynckes Bayern and their way are maybe a little too glorified after their success . Sure they were awesome and very strong , but it's not like they would sweep every title in existance just because of it anyway . I don't think they would have done any better if they were the same kind of team today tbh . And Pep's Bayern has been great since day 1 imo , sure they are yet to reclaim the Champions League , but there are no guarantees there whatsoever .

Pep's Bayern only got out of the competition by the 2 eventual winners , Real and this season by Barcelona . It says a lot really. I still don't understand why people bitch about Pep . He rules Bundesliga with Bayern , playing great football (unless you don't like his way) . Where's the shame losing to the 2 eventual winners in the semis? Again , it's probably because Heynckes Bayern is over glorified .

I see a more witty Bayern these days , willing to dominate with more than their sheer force of athleticism , but perhaps lacking in a few areas defensively and you're probably right with them not willing to take risks as often as they did at least. Not sure how they will fix that but i think the solution is time here. Not because of what Pep will do , but the players. Match after match they are becoming better at it and with the right additions , i don't see why Bayern can't find themselves in the CL final next season . They either do or not , i still rate Pep's Bayern a total success , despite losing important traits from Heynckes team . It became something else , which is to me , at the very least , equally impressive .


I agree with Heynckes era being overglorified. The intangibles such as motivation after the Never Munchen season spurred the team on. I think people think the Bundesliga is a walk in the park which frustrates me. What I do understand is the way the team collapsed in the Madrid semis was unacceptable. That said, it seems like even the Bayern board or representatives of the club such as Breitner have become deluded into believing that they have some divine right to win the cl at a canter.

Heynckes Bayern was fortunate to meet a Barcelona in a worse state than Rijkaards 2008 team and for Dante not getting sent off in that final.

It seems Bayern fans (the ones I know) only look forward to the cl semis and judge the team based on that.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:01 pm

Dante wrote:what issues are there with Gotze and Pep ?? Is it because he's not starting every single game or..


It's because despite looking spritely in a lot of games in the middle third of the season, he's not really made that step in progress that many people expected of him, and since he's not lacking vision, nor technique, and even has decent finishing, he really should have by now. IMHO this is because he doesn't fit Peps system.
For once I'm not blaming this on Pep because he wanted Nerman; but Götze despite having individual moments of brilliance doesn't really seem to compliment the way Bayern play at the moment all that much. He's not enough of a goal threat to be the final station in a Bayern attack like Messi is, and he's not pacey enough for the wings, and Bayern don't use a playmaker, so really, there is no real way to play him in his actual position, which would be at the center, with Lewandowski in front of him.
At the same time he hasn't really looked that great as a CM with Lewandowski in front of him either, which is his own fault, so not looking too hot in a 4-3-3;
so either Pep finds a way to play to Götzes strengths, or he'll continue to not impress unless he really evolves, but that would be in a way I wouldn't expect of most players.

Götzes perfect position would be as the #10 in a 4-2-3-1 imho.

Peps tactics aren't that bad, and Götze certainly didn't spontaneously decide to flop now, I just don't think they fit each other all that well.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:07 pm

Dante wrote:I kinda agree that Heynckes way suited Bayern more , at least with this core of players . Their direct way , with incredible counter attacking capacity , combined with such excellent pace , be that on pressing , creating opportunities for goals , transitions .. it was amazing to watch really.

But they made a big decision when they went with Pep and i for once think it was the best decision they could have made

To that end, this is basically why I made this thread. I still think that it would've been best for Bayern to work on continuity, and replace their current generation with similar players, if possible. Obviously the board disagrees with me, because they sure knew what Pep would do. So half of the blame I lay on Pep probably belongs to the Bayern board.

I mainly made this thread because I realized that this is a better time to break with tradition and form a new identity than I thought.

Pep's Bayern only got out of the competition by the 2 eventual winners , Real and this season by Barcelona . It says a lot really. I still don't understand why people bitch about Pep

I did because the  defeat to Real was disgraceful. The defeat to Barca was reasonable.

They either do or not , i still rate Pep's Bayern a total success , despite losing important traits from Heynckes team . It became something else , which is to me , at the very least , equally impressive .


If the goal really was to make a huge change, then I question the timing a bit, but what the hell, in that case Pep did alright.
What really bugs me though is that he's probably leaving after next season. If he does, Bayern will be stuck with a half-finished project.
And if they extend further, that project might not work as well as they might've hoped.


PS: Incidentally, the biggest mistake Bayern made in the past few seasons, IMHO, was selling Kroos, and that wasn't Peps doing at all, AFAIK.
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Post by Art Morte Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:29 pm

I think Viva has started drinking early this Friday.


More seriously: When Pep implemented his style to perfection with Barcelona, the Spanish NT were doing the same, with many of the same players. It was the perfect "partnership". The German NT are the World Champions and are playing a different style to Pep's. I think there could be some friction if Pep tries to make the leading German club a carbon copy of his Barca. Although at the moment Bayern's first XI has really surprisingly few Germans - when's the last time there's been so few? - I think long-term Bayern would find more success emulating the "German NT style" rather than Pep's favoured style.
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Post by billy_gr Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:32 pm

Pedro is a natural LW.
It will be a blessing for you.
We are selling
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Post by Casciavit Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:37 pm

He's built his team around 2 glass players in Ribery and Robben. I honestly think if they had a fit team against Barca, they would've won the CL tbh.

I think Pep will try to squeeze out one more year from the current group though. He probably doesn't want to rebuild the team and teach his methods from step 1 again.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:50 pm

Art Morte wrote:I think there could be some friction if Pep tries to make the leading German club a carbon copy of his Barca. Although at the moment Bayern's first XI has really surprisingly few Germans - when's the last time there's been so few? - I think long-term Bayern would find more success emulating the "German NT style" rather than Pep's favoured style.


I, like, totally love you, man.
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Post by Art Morte Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:53 pm

You better say that in the morning, still.
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Post by futbol Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:55 pm

Next season is Pep's last. lol Klopp taking a break is almost confirming it. Next Bayern manager no doubt. What else would he be waiting for?  

Regardless of tactics and coaching, Ribbery, Robben, Schweinsteiger, Lahm and even Alonso being 30+ will see them decline rather quickly within the next 2 seasons IMO. I feel next season is Bayern's last big chance to win the CL. Most of these players are irreplaceable. Martinez, Thiago and someone else could make for a good midfield but Robben, Ribery, Lahm nearing retirement age will take away a lot from Bayern's main strength which is their wingplay.

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:03 pm

Depends, I actually think Lahm is one of those players who might remain useful until he's like 35, with Schweinsteiger, his play style would lend itself well to aging, he's not really depending on speed, just on endurance, and that doesn't go with age, but he's already injury prone, and that will only get worse.
Robbery should be done within 2 seasons, yes.

But the influx of mediocre Spaniards just because Pep knows them is alarming to say the least. And if Klopp really is replacing Pep, everything Pep's done so far will be instantly reverted.
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Post by Doc Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:54 pm

I, for one, didn't expect to see such a heart warming opening post from Viva considering I actually read (a lot) of his stuff when it comes to Pep and Spanish football in general. And considering what the German wrote before, this actually is heart warming so I suspect someone got up in a good mood when he wrote this. Probably a woman and/or rum were involved.

Also, the last time a question of this ilk was asked, Haps sort of made a bitch fit when everyone kept saying the same thing without realising maybe everyone had similar thoughts. In terms of what Bayern should do, I don't know. Viva is correct in saying that Bayern should have known who they were hiring and what his philosophies were but knowing it and actually experiencing it seems to be chalk and cheese.

If I were to give a definite answer, the Bayern board should continue with what they started, give him his time. They are actually successful being two time Bundesliga Champions and have made the last 4 in the UCL twice under him. But of course, success is in relation to what is the club's expectations. If they expect to be in the UCL final every year, then they can fire Pep right about now since that didn't even happen with Barcelona, a squad tailor made for Pep's vision.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:31 pm

They are starting up with some signings that are... Not perfect, though.
I don't think it's Peps fault though. But come on, they weren't willing to spend big enough for Reus, then they didn't think they should spring the bank for Nerman (or don't trust South Americans, whatevs), and now they pay 30m for freaking Costa, who is a good player, but not worth more than 15 or 20, all so they don't have to pay 40 to 50m on someone really elite?

I know 10 or 20m is still a huge difference, but not for Bayerns finances. It just seems like they are Stuttgarting themselves into international mediocrity, and Pep seems happy as long as he can replace proper players with prancing ballarinas, even if they are inferior.

Perfect storm of not winning anything imho.

Edit: Meh, this is probably more something for the Bayern transfer thread...
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Post by Art Morte Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:46 pm

The best rants are good enough for more than one thread, imho. That's how it is in the Liverpool section anyway.
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Post by futbol Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:01 pm

Viva getting soft. What's going on? You engaged now or what?

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Post by Art Morte Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:21 pm

I think it's just timing. The Thursday tone-down. Ask him Saturday morning at 3.30am what he thinks of Pep and it'll be different.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:23 pm

I've realised that while Pep still sucks, I think his particular brand of suck is what the Bayern board actually wanted, or rather, I think they could/should have known what Pep was going to do, and have enabled him so far, so I have to stop portraying Bayern as victims of agent Pep, but rather, have to admit that the Bayern board have ordered the dismantling of their dominance themselves.

So while Pep might suck, I think it is now time to either fully commit, and let him at least fully integrate his suboptimal footballing philosophy, so at least, while sucking, it does work, or sack him and undo everything he's done. There's no half-assing it. Pep has initiated a change that, while idiotic, has to either be completed to at least make the UCL Semis in the future, or has to be reversed at great cost, cost which the Bayern board are probably to cheap for.

They've been blinded by international ambition, and have supplanted the superior style of Don Jupp with the flash of Pep, that brings them those lovely ratings in latin dominated countries, where they want to see stepovers, and think diving is "smart" and "very tactical".

They've made their bed. They need to either sleep in it, or brew up gallons of coffee.
VivaStPauli
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