How Highly do you Rate John Terry?

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Post by Kick Mon May 04, 2015 1:08 pm

How highly does he rate among the all time great defenders?

And how highly does he rate among the great premier league defenders?
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Post by Nishankly Mon May 04, 2015 1:13 pm

Comfortably one of the best defenders ive seen in the PL live.
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Post by RealGunner Mon May 04, 2015 3:51 pm

One of the best in the PL of all time easily. Top 5.

Probably top 30 in European all time.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon May 04, 2015 4:01 pm

His consistency in the PL is probably unrivaled as it attains to staying at the top for so long. I don't necessarily believe his highest point was the best though.

Basically i can think of a few defenders in the PL who had a better prime in their career but nobody who consistently stayed at top for so long.
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Post by RealGunner Mon May 04, 2015 4:05 pm

Yea exactly.

He is 34 and had a fantastic season playing every single minute. Says a lot about him.

Chelsea will miss him when he is retired. They can find many who might be superior than him in ability, but what he does in terms of leadership and consistent performances. There are less than 5 like him.
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Post by Nishankly Mon May 04, 2015 5:00 pm

Less than 5?
I fail to count 2 in the PL, That have the same ability and consistency as Terry.

Arsenal: Kos and Mert = No.
United: Laughing
Liverpool: rofl
City: Kompany? Nah.

There is none. Cahill is probably the next best CB that comes to mind, Chelsea are blessed in defense.

Dude who even come close are probably Ferdinand, Prime Kolo, Gallas, Campbell etc who have retired. Carragher was never at that level as well.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon May 04, 2015 5:14 pm

Think RG is talking about in history of PL Nish.
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Post by Nishankly Mon May 04, 2015 5:20 pm

I mentioned some historic CB's hmm
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon May 04, 2015 5:23 pm

hmm
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Post by RealGunner Mon May 04, 2015 9:19 pm

Less than 5 in the world you plebs. Not just PL
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Post by futbol Mon May 04, 2015 9:27 pm

Maybe in a world where Koscielny is a world class defender. Laughing

:coffee:

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Post by Doc Mon May 04, 2015 9:51 pm

With regards to the all time great CB's:
Honestly, I don't see him in that light. No disrespect to his illustrious football career but I just never would think of him that highly. With that being said, he can hold his head quite high (which he would anyway) whenever any comparison is mentioned.

With regards to the Premier League:
Definitely. Like Mole, while some may have a better prime seasons, Terry has been consistently solid for how long, 9, 10 seasons. That sort of consistency shouldn't be ignored.

All in all, great career and great CB. Chelsea would definitely miss him when he retires...
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Post by The Franchise Mon May 04, 2015 10:10 pm

I think at the hight of his powers Rio Ferdinand was better and I think Stam was better.

Vidic at his best, Carvalho at his best and Adams are his best were not inferior either.

My opinion.
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Post by futbol Mon May 04, 2015 10:23 pm

Doc wrote:With regards to the all time great CB's:


In that regard his irrelevant international career as well as his slip in Chelsea's first ever Champions League final and getting himself sent off and suspended for the final in Chelsea's first ever Champions League victory will always be held against him for sure.

In PL history among the very best even though on a personal and subjective level I still don't necessarily rate these Mourinho team defenders that highly. Obviously you can't throw in any clown and make him look good in this Chelsea team, that's not the point, but having a centerback as a rightback and a leftback who gets nosebleed whenever he passes the halfway line with Matic protecting the back four, Hazard doing his best wingback impression, workhorses like Oscar, Willian and Ramires providing more grit and steel than offensive creativity with GOAT GKs like Cech and Courtois as last lifeline while collectively sitting back against any half decent team sure as hell makes life easier for a centerback. And that wasn't different during Mourinho's first stint. DAT Makelele-Tiago double pivot. Proud

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Post by Valkyrja Mon May 04, 2015 10:43 pm

Fußball wrote:
Doc wrote:With regards to the all time great CB's:


In that regard his irrelevant international career as well as his slip in Chelsea's first ever Champions League final and getting himself sent off and suspended for the final in Chelsea's first ever Champions League victory will always be held against him for sure.

In PL history among the very best even though on a personal and subjective level I still don't necessarily rate these Mourinho team defenders that highly. Obviously you can't throw in any clown and make him look good in this Chelsea team, that's not the point, but having a centerback as a rightback and a leftback who gets nosebleed whenever he passes the halfway line with Matic protecting the back four, Hazard doing his best wingback impression, workhorses like Oscar, Willian and Ramires providing more grit and steel than offensive creativity with GOAT GKs like Cech and Courtois as last lifeline while collectively sitting back against any half decent team sure as hell makes life easier for a centerback. And that wasn't different during Mourinho's first stint. DAT Makelele-Tiago double pivot. Proud


A team plays to its strengths. You could argue that Terry wouldn't be as good in a high line as he is now, but that doesn't matter, because (iirc) he never played in a high line. Xavi wouldn't be the Xavi we know in a counter-attacking team. Does that make him worse ?
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Post by urbaNRoots Mon May 04, 2015 10:52 pm

Valkyrja wrote:
Fußball wrote:
Doc wrote:With regards to the all time great CB's:


In that regard his irrelevant international career as well as his slip in Chelsea's first ever Champions League final and getting himself sent off and suspended for the final in Chelsea's first ever Champions League victory will always be held against him for sure.

In PL history among the very best even though on a personal and subjective level I still don't necessarily rate these Mourinho team defenders that highly. Obviously you can't throw in any clown and make him look good in this Chelsea team, that's not the point, but having a centerback as a rightback and a leftback who gets nosebleed whenever he passes the halfway line with Matic protecting the back four, Hazard doing his best wingback impression, workhorses like Oscar, Willian and Ramires providing more grit and steel than offensive creativity with GOAT GKs like Cech and Courtois as last lifeline while collectively sitting back against any half decent team sure as hell makes life easier for a centerback. And that wasn't different during Mourinho's first stint. DAT Makelele-Tiago double pivot. Proud


A team plays to its strengths. You could argue that Terry wouldn't be as good in a high line as he is now, but that doesn't matter, because (iirc) he never played in a high line. Xavi wouldn't be the Xavi we know in a counter-attacking team.  Does that make him worse ?


He played in a high line under AVB and was called 'past it'.

Still though, Fußball makes a good point. Mourinho's ways suit him perfectly, he's your old school defender who'll not make a single mistake if you don't move him out of his comfort zone. Still he's fantastic at that and that's fair enough, but under other managers I just don't see him doing that well.

Let's not forget that Mourinho was capable to make Kalas keep a clean sheet and have a great performance away to Liverpool last season against Suarez/Sturridge at their top level and Kalas was a reserve player for Koln and now plays with Middlesborough.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon May 04, 2015 11:21 pm

The Franchise wrote:I think at the hight of his powers Rio Ferdinand was better and I think Stam was better.

Vidic at his best, Carvalho at his best and Adams are his best were not inferior either.

My opinion.


Stam's peak is probably no 1 tbh, definitely Fergie's biggest mistake.
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Post by futbol Mon May 04, 2015 11:23 pm

Valkyrja wrote:

A team plays to its strengths. You could argue that Terry wouldn't be as good in a high line as he is now, but that doesn't matter, because (iirc) he never played in a high line. Xavi wouldn't be the Xavi we know in a counter-attacking team.  Does that make him worse ?


See, and that's where you are wrong based on Youtube phrases. How can Modric excell playing direct football for Madrid or Fabregas for Chelsea but Xavi in his prime who was better in every single footballing aspect than both couldn't? At worst he'd play further forward alongside physical midfield partners who would do the dirt work for him but his main job to create chances, playmake, play throughballs and ping passes around will be the same. The Terry example is different. Defenders are rated on their defensive work and if a defender is surrounded by 10 men around his own box so he rarely gets isolated 1 vs. 1 against any dangerous attacking threat then it helps him a great deal in his main job: to defend. Has Atletico not proved it already that you can look like prime Sacchi's Milan defensively without having the best defenders in the world by working hard as a unit? Well, Chelsea are playing no different. Defenders can be helped a great deal by collective and tactical work, more than any other position for sure. Obviously a central midfielder also relies on his teammates making the proper runs and movements and getting him on the ball, at the end of the day it's a team sport after all where no player is independant, nonetheless surely defense is the one position which you can influence the most by hard work + certain tactical measurements (for example parking the bus).

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon May 04, 2015 11:30 pm

Your logic falls flat on its face when you realize Atletico are nowhere near the same side defensively without Godin or if you want to go back to last season Felipe Luis too.

Too be a fantastic organizer and leader is not an easy thing to do and very few excel at it to be able to be so good as you should realize with Pique rofl
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Post by futbol Mon May 04, 2015 11:41 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Your logic falls flat on its face when you realize Atletico are nowhere near the same side defensively without Godin or if you want to go back to last season Felipe Luis too.

Too be a fantastic organizer and leader is not an easy thing to do and very few excel at it to be able to be so good as you should realize with Pique rofl


But it doesn't. Unless you think I'm saying you can play any clown in defense and it doesn't make a difference. Which I'm not. Terry is still a great defender. As is Godin. But Godin was also there in 2010 when Atletico conceded more goals than Deportivo who got relegated that season. As were many other players who played a CL final since then. Yet only 1 major variable has changed: Simeone.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon May 04, 2015 11:43 pm

Fair enough hmm
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Post by RealGunner Tue May 05, 2015 1:02 am

Fußball wrote:Maybe in a world where Koscielny is a world class defender. Laughing

:coffee:


Koscielny IS a WC defender. Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it.

The Franchise wrote:I think at the hight of his powers Rio Ferdinand was better and I think Stam was better.

Vidic at his best, Carvalho at his best and Adams are his best were not inferior either.

My opinion.


In terms of ability, I can't disagree. Sol Campbell was better than Terry as well in his prime. But in terms of consistency, Terry is perhaps better than most of them. None of those defenders were/are as good at the age of 34 as Terry is.
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Post by futbol Tue May 05, 2015 1:04 am

RealGunner wrote:
Fußball wrote:Maybe in a world where Koscielny is a world class defender. Laughing

:coffee:


Koscielny IS a WC defender. Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it.


Maybe in a world where Wilshere is a world class talent. Laughing

:coffee:

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Post by Kick Tue May 05, 2015 1:14 am

RealGunner wrote:
Fußball wrote:Maybe in a world where Koscielny is a world class defender. Laughing

:coffee:


Koscielny IS a WC defender. Doesn't matter how much you try to deny it.

The Franchise wrote:I think at the hight of his powers Rio Ferdinand was better and I think Stam was better.

Vidic at his best, Carvalho at his best and Adams are his best were not inferior either.

My opinion.


In terms of ability, I can't disagree. Sol Campbell was better than Terry as well in his prime. But in terms of consistency, Terry is perhaps better than most of them. None of those defenders were/are as good at the age of 34 as Terry is.

This, I think is JT's greatest strength.

He has been one of the best defenders in the EPL for over 10 years, where players like Vidic, Carvalho, Gallas et al. have risen to perhaps greater peaks, they have also fallen before Terry.

His peak has plateaued for much longer and many Chelsea fans see him as a starter beyond this season, too.

@Fuss, while I get what you're saying, that JT cannot play the high line, I think the comparison with Xavi is fair. Also, saying you would move Xavi forward in a counter attacking system means we should be allowed to move JT into the center of a 5 man defence in a highline system, no? That seems unfair otherwise.

Also, assuming the counter attacking system was a midfield of Xavi-Bus-Iniesta, Xavi wouldn't be pushed forward, as Iniesta is no better a being a destroyer.
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Post by futbol Tue May 05, 2015 1:47 am

I think it's not the same. What's Xavi's job? Basically to receive, keep, pass and distribute the ball. He will do that in any system. Again, explain why Fabregas or Modric could and Xavi couldn't. Xavi was elected player of the tournament in Euro 2008 playing alongside Senna flanked by Silva and Iniesta and 2 strikers upfront (Villa + Torres). That's in principle not much different from Madrid's lineup with Kroos + Modric flanked by Isco and James and Ronaldo and Benzema upfront in 4-4-2.

If Xavi played in a counterattacking system with less possession the problem maybe would be that he has to chase the game more (again, exaggerated, Xavi had better defensive awareness, positioning and ball retention under pressure than Fabregas ever did and he just does well for Chelsea). But defending wouldn't be his main job.

Meanwhile Terry's main job is to defend and his life can change very quickly depending on the work his teammates put in and the tactical setup of the team.

On a bigger scale, keeping clean sheets is easier to achieve without talent than scoring 5 goals. You often see underdog teams closing the opposition down like Greece, Costa Rica in the recent WC, Westbrom against United etc. but the other way around you pretty much never see underdogs teams destroying much better teams, do you (inb4 some video of Arsenal getting destroyed by scrubs Laughing)?

Defense is more dependant on tactics and collective attitude. And in that sense John Terry had the optimal environment under Mourinho. Example. You will never see this happen to John Terry under Mourinho:



2 Barca players in Barca's entire half. Laughing

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