Milan vs SaToLanta

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Post by Dante Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:52 pm

Vibe wrote:Am I the only one under impression that Seedorf was really a great coach with lots of potential and was sacked purely politically?


No , you're not the only one Vibe . It will get obvious in the years to come , when Seedorf will be considered one of the best young coaches around and Milan will still be shit . I understood Seedorf pretty quickly tbh and we're half the season here and nobody gets Inzaghi and his 'clear ideas' that he never explains in essence . Or why his clear ideas show up so ugly or ineffective on the field. Or why he plays the 4-3-3 the way he does.

He just has the locker room behind him and he's the management's lad , that's it. Seedorf was better for Milan and i want Inzaghi to still prove otherwise . But he goes out and says we should "wake up" , because , "since Christmas we haven't played well".. Yeah , because before Christmas we'we were porn on the eye .

I hoped Inzaghi would prove better , i really did .. But he clearly hasn't . I don't know if Milan was right to hire Seedorf so soon in the first place , but sacking him for the reasons they did was fataly wrong and the most disgracefull thing i've ever seen Milan do to one of their own.

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Post by Katy Perry Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:33 pm

Seedorf >>> Inzaghi and it's not even debatable.

Seedorf retired as a footballer where he was playing in another contient in the middle of the season in a time of huge crisis with a mediocre team built for another manager without having the possibilities to modify it and with the CL in between (btw, Clarence's Milan was the only team in Europe that truly outplayed last year's Atletico in the first leg against them where Atleti got the flukiest win ever with Courtois doing a Lev Yashin-esque performance, Milan hitting the post twice, Costa scoring in the very first chance)got a respectable 35 points out of 19 games (13 more than Allegri's Milan in the same games). Inzaghi had some experience with as a youth coach and had a full pre-season with a much better team and he had two transfer windows to buy the players he wanted without the CL and has done worse if we judge the league table and the style of play.
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Post by Casciavit Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:05 pm

Vibe wrote:Am I the only one under impression that Seedorf was really a great coach with lots of potential and was sacked purely politically?

Nope.

Seedorf had a philosophy and playing style that he wanted to implement. Look at our games against Atletico and Juve, we lost 1-0 and lost the other game 2-0, but we played some great football.

We created chances, but our finishing was off. However, with time that is fixable. Berlusconi wanted results right away, so Seedorf switched to a counter attacking 4-2-3-1 and we did well. We went on a 5 game winning streak for the first time since 2010.

That doesn't even take into account that we had Balotelli, Taarabt, Honda in his first months, and a past it Kaka as our front 4 Laughing

He definitely had potential and he wanted to bring in his own staff during the summer. I remember reading reports that he wanted to base it off Ajax's coaching staff, a coach responsible for the defense, a coach responsible for the midfield, and a coach responsible for the attack.

Defensive coach- Stam
Midfield coach- Seedorf
Attacking coach- Crespo

So he definitely did have some bright ideas under his sleeve, but at the same time he lost the dressing room and the support of the captain (Montolivo).

Galliani didn't like him, Tassotti didn't like him, most of the Italian players hated him Laughing

We lost 4-2 against Parma, so the fans protested and the Curva leader had a discussion with Seedorf and Kaka. According to him, Seedorf said the dressing room was split and how he wanted to rebuild the squad from scratch during the summer.

So it was much easier to sack a coach who wasn't very liked even if his results were okay, than it is to rebuild the squad. That's our problem, we look for bandage solutions when we need a fkin surgery.

If, we look at the Serie A table during Seedorf's reign we were 3rd. In the 18 matches Seedorf coached, Milan got 35 points. In the 18 matches Pippo has coached thus far, Milan have gotten 26.

Pippo has had a preseason as well as having a superior squad.

Anyways, I'm not asking for the sack as its somewhat early and he can turn things around, but I honestly don't think he will.
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Post by Kaladin Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:48 pm

We're still paying Seedorf iirc lol
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Post by Katy Perry Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:57 pm

G&B should let their pride aside and call him back.
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Post by Kaladin Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:04 pm

Its his severance payment, i doubt he'd come back after the way the management treated him.
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Post by Dante Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:22 pm

Nice post Casciavit.

Well , if he really wants to turn the tides around he will have to - more or less - do what Seedorf wanted to do . And if he goes down that road , he will leave like Seedorf did . Laughing

And btw ; Berlusconi won't sack Inzaghi even if we finish 8th again , i am willing to bet money on that . Just the fact that he visits the team every single friday the whole season proves that , they don't want split-dressing rooms and all that kind of bs again. He goes there to remind them who's in charge , for whom they work for , that their coach has his backing . That's the real reason he's visits Milanelo each friday or something. To protect Inzaghi , that's what 'inspiring' them means.

Had he done that for Seedorf who was his own choice , at least that , Seedorf would never have to deal with such bs , who knows maybe he would still be around . We did afterall , change half the team anyway . Obviously there was more than that , but anyhow , that's past now.

@ ES

Yes we still do . Seedorf did say he respects the situation , meaning , he won't coach elsewhere as long as he gets paid by Milan . And also to say fk you , which is nice . Goes both ways.

@ Katy Perry

lol , that will happen . Even if they somehow did have some dignity left and admitted their mistake and asked him to get back , i don't think Seedorf would agree.
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Post by Kaladin Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:25 am

Casciavit wrote:
Vibe wrote:Am I the only one under impression that Seedorf was really a great coach with lots of potential and was sacked purely politically?

Nope.

Seedorf had a philosophy and playing style that he wanted to implement. Look at our games against Atletico and Juve, we lost 1-0 and lost the other game 2-0, but we played some great football.

We created chances, but our finishing was off. However, with time that is fixable. Berlusconi wanted results right away, so Seedorf switched to a counter attacking 4-2-3-1 and we did well. We went on a 5 game winning streak for the first time since 2010.

That doesn't even take into account that we had Balotelli, Taarabt, Honda in his first months, and a past it Kaka as our front 4 Laughing

He definitely had potential and he wanted to bring in his own staff during the summer. I remember reading reports that he wanted to base it off Ajax's coaching staff, a coach responsible for the defense, a coach responsible for the midfield, and a coach responsible for the attack.

Defensive coach- Stam
Midfield coach- Seedorf
Attacking coach- Crespo

So he definitely did have some bright ideas under his sleeve, but at the same time he lost the dressing room and the support of the captain (Montolivo).

Galliani didn't like him, Tassotti didn't like him, most of the Italian players hated him Laughing

We lost 4-2 against Parma, so the fans protested and the Curva leader had a discussion with Seedorf and Kaka. According to him, Seedorf said the dressing room was split and how he wanted to rebuild the squad from scratch during the summer.

So it was much easier to sack a coach who wasn't very liked even if his results were okay, than it is to rebuild the squad. That's our problem, we look for bandage solutions when we need a fkin surgery.

If, we look at the Serie A table during Seedorf's reign we were 3rd. In the 18 matches Seedorf coached, Milan got 35 points. In the 18 matches Pippo has coached thus far, Milan have gotten 26.

Pippo has had a preseason as well as having a superior squad.

Anyways, I'm not asking for the sack as its somewhat early and he can turn things around, but I honestly don't think he will.


+1 Well said Cas
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Post by Kaladin Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:41 am

I also agree with what Dante says

A coaching change won't help us, transfers won't help us, the problem lies at the top and trickles down to the team, no amount of helicopter visits will turn this team around. Nothing will change unless something drastic happens with the higher-ups (And i don't mean Galliani's lolresignationwat) or the club is sold. Sadly, Italy is an unattractive destination for investors, politically and financially, and, Berlusconi value for Milan is too steep for investors.

We're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea
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Post by Dante Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:30 am

-nods in silence-

Galliani has said it , indirectly of course.. when he was accused by someone that his hand has gotten stingy these days , amidst transfer talk , he reportedly replied , 'i don't have a hand these days' .

Our problem is Berlusconi . I don't ask or crave the day he will sell Milan , i know better than that for years now. However , his one job remains the same , to help the club economicaly and he doesn't want to any more . On the other hand , he understands pretty well Milan cannot rely on him forever . I agree to that too . What i don't agree is how they have been handling the situation , the transition of it all.

Untill they do manage the club to be self-sustainable , he should never stop investing in Milan . Yes work toward marketing more , toward the new stadium , see CasaMilan pay back , yeah all great.. find new investors ,make new and better deals , cool.

The team , the actuall value everything is based upon , has been criminaly left in its own fate , with the minimum amount of money necessary needed to operate and survive. He chose to do the right thing , in the wrong way , or the easy way...

In the end , he chose he has given enough . No matter how disgusting i find him as a politician , i recognise how much he has given to Milan , so i have to accept the situation . I don't approve , but i don't have a say either when he has done his job for so long. Nevertheless , he ought to have taken care of Milan , untill we can stand up on our feet. He didn't , he currently doesn't and i doubt he ever will in the future either .

We're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea , exactly as you said. And it's the mismanagement during this change of direction , during this transition . His view that Milan should be independent and financialy self reliant and self-sufficient , is very correct , but untill then , as the owner and president of this club , it's his responsibility to provide the economical help and not leave the team to perish in mediocrity like that , let alone all the other bs that has happened all this time. It's sad tbh but we just have to wait for better days , which if you ask me , won't be coming any time soon.
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Post by Cruijf Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:39 am

Katy you are right and many here were rightfully furious when Seedorf was sacked despite making progress. Nevertheless, Dante's point is valid. We could have Guardiola here and it wouldn't make any difference (well it would, but not enough), our players just aren't good enough. Worse, the management refuses to strengthen. We haven't had a world class player in our team since Ibra and Silva left, and we're still content signing mediocre players like Menez, Cerci, and Jack. Worse, we're not even spending what little money we have on young prospects or youth development. We're buying late twenties early thirties past its.

And our 'goal' is the CL Laughing
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Post by Kaladin Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:30 pm

Multiple media sources reported a big fight between Cerci and Abate during half time, possible the reason why Cerci was subbed off after 45 mins
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Post by nichabr Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:39 pm

Someone needs to tell Menez to play the ball quicker(tarabt2.0)....SES and Cerci both looked frustrated all game making countless runs and as a false nine(if that is his actually role) he should be making plays a lot faster than he does.
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Post by Dante Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:04 am

I agree , he needs to play it faster . He does that so often ffs.. As for his ideal role , well even if it is his ideal role , that particular midfield won't help him doing it proper justice . Can't draw defences out and catch them out of guard when all we look to do is destroy and counter attack from the wings. He's just there because he runs fast and knows how to finish a chance , doesn't trully play false 9..

at best he falls deeper to help in possesion , haven't seen him succeed in participating as 10 , or being followed higher up the pitch so others can run at space. Not near enough at least.
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Post by dostoevsky Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:19 am

Regarding our match against Atalanta, this was an immensely frustrating loss but I, for once, at least had the impression that the side still felt they could get something and were trying to win up until the last minute, which hasn't been the case all of this season. It is an unacceptable result regardless however.

The goal we conceded was beyond maddening. A pointless trick in midfield by Menez who then stood and watched as Atalanta broke away, not even attempting to jog back despite how deep he lost the ball. Our ability to alter the game later on was compounded by having to waste a substitution to bring off Bonera, though Armero offered little more in attack, truth be told.

Menez took his drifting role to new heights of futility, which might perhaps justify Pazzini's early introduction at half time. The unintended consequence however was to isolate El Shaarawy, with Bonaventura moving from his position of LCM to a hybrid of RW/RCM. With Menez tucking in behind Pazzini we shifted between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 with Montolivo centrally and De Jong on the left when without the ball however even when Bonaventura advanced and deformed the structure we left El Shaarawy dependent upon De Jong carrying the ball forward - which he was extremely reluctant to do - and the advances of Armero who was unusually timid. What in effect happened in order to include El Shaarawy was for Menez to drift out to the left flank in order to combine, a move that produced some lovely runs and won a few potentially dangerous set pieces but which simply recreated the issue in the first half of a lack of presence, with Pazzini fighting alone in the box when the play came in from the left. The situation was slightly better in this respect when we came from the right, as most of our attacks did, however a lack of precision in combination with Atalanta's organisation and tenacity meant we were second to contested balls and smothered in the air.

I also thought that Montolivo showed signs of fatigue from the beginning of the second half which rather hurt our intensity and tempo in midfield and left De Jong too much responsibility to construct the play. Naturally given that he has still not been back long it's not meant as a criticism of our captain but it certainly affected us. I'd have liked to see Van Ginkel on in his place however given the aforementioned waste of a substitution for Bonera's injury, this was not possible. What eventually took place was Niang's introduction, something I thought certain to infuriate Dante, however in his defence, I thought he did no worse than Bonaventura and Cerci and even created a few nice opportunities, though his delivery was a bit heavy at times. His late corner was our best set piece opportunity all game though and we were unfortunate that Rami could not put his shot either side of Sportiello. We too often isolated Niang from the midfield however, which creates in Niang the tendency to over dribble rather than wait or go backwards, however he wasted very few balls in his performance which was promising, even drawing a bad foul and yellow from Cigarini in the process of beating two men. It was not enough however.

What was most maddening of all though was just how much time Mexes spent in midfield after we conceded. This was not a calculated risk made late in the day, to push for an equaliser in the final ten minutes. This was a regular foray to the top of the box or even the byline from 30 minutes in and onwards. His lack of understanding of space left our forwards overcrowded and despite his relative comfort on the ball he was rarely ever likely to contribute to a goal. To happen once or twice might well be personal expression but to continually occur was either managerial weakness or incompetence. Ridiculous, plain and simple.

I've given up on third place. Napoli will grab it, of that I'm certain. They'll make it as difficult as possible for themselves as they can but they will finish third. We'll fight for the Europa League with Lazio, Inter, Sampdoria and Fiorentina. I see no reason currently to fancy our chances.
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Post by dostoevsky Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:28 am

Regarding Seedorf and Inzaghi, Clarence said a lot of things that were encouraging and I would have liked to see come to fruition. One could also have accused him of lacking a true style of play however and it's hardly balanced to bring up the home leg of the Atletico tie without commenting on the absolute debacle of the away leg, not to mention our tactical atrocity at Napoli. This is not meant as an attack on Seedorf, I think he'll eventually be an accomplished coach. It was merely wishful thinking on the part of our management to hire not one but two legends with no experience to coach the side. Both should have gone and learnt the ropes at smaller sides before returning. Top coaches simply do not pop out of thin air. Guardiola is the exception that poisons the minds of delirious owners and presidents when the reality is in most cases the chaos of Villas Boas. Pippo and Clarence are the victims of absurd expectations and economy drives. For all Clarence might have done to win us points, he lost the dressing room in near record time. I struggle to believe he'd have done so had he had years of prior managerial experience. All we're doing at the moment is pointlessly burning bridges with our legends. I thought Seedorf deserved time and similarly Pippo but we'd have been a lot better off had they been given the time elsewhere.
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Post by dostoevsky Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:31 am

El Shaarawy wrote:btw, last time i make a match day thread this season. Been dreadful so far Laughing , It seems like i'm cursed

You just had to make a three match combined thread, didn't you? Laughing

Finally, with regard to our horrific set piece defending, I don't miss Silva and Nesta, I miss Ibrahimovic. He cleared more balls by planting himself at the near post than anyone else in our side by a country mile.
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Post by Dante Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:32 am

Excellent post mate , i didn't see the game , good to know certain things. And lol about Niang Laughing . Yeah, i would be mad when i would have seen him getting in.. but if he did well , i wouldn't go against him or anything.

Again great post , gave me a general idea of what happened and i sadly agree with you on the last part. We shouldn't really bother talking about the 3rd place anymore , not as things stand .
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Post by Forza Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:52 am

Yeah, Niang actually tried hard this game and didn't look completely aloof. Jack and SES toiled out on the wings for what seemed like an eternity. With no decent CF making runs to support them, we manufactured very few chances.
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Post by Dante Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:52 am

dostoevsky wrote:Regarding Seedorf and Inzaghi, Clarence said a lot of things that were encouraging and I would have liked to see come to fruition. One could also have accused him of lacking a true style of play however and it's hardly balanced to bring up the home leg of the Atletico tie without commenting on the absolute debacle of the away leg, not to mention our tactical atrocity at Napoli. This is not meant as an attack on Seedorf, I think he'll eventually be an accomplished coach. It was merely wishful thinking on the part of our management to hire not one but two legends with no experience to coach the side. Both should have gone and learnt the ropes at smaller sides before returning. Top coaches simply do not pop out of thin air. Guardiola is the exception that poisons the minds of delirious owners and presidents when the reality is in most cases the chaos of Villas Boas. Pippo and Clarence are the victims of absurd expectations and economy drives. For all Clarence might have done to win us points, he lost the dressing room in near record time. I struggle to believe he'd have done so had he had years of prior managerial experience. All we're doing at the moment is pointlessly burning bridges with our legends. I thought Seedorf deserved time and similarly Pippo but we'd have been a lot better off had they been given the time elsewhere.


agreed with the rest although about Ibra , i must say he stood always in front of the first post and cleared the obvious threats that came his way , that's iirc . Whilst commentable and especially for a CF to do this so often , it's certainly not him who took the heavy load against corners in his time .

The organising and impact the duo had against the attackers inside our area was mostly Nesta-Silva . After they left , we have been made to witness this :

Tassoti's being unable to provide the same results with his methods , afterall he is the one responsible for the defence
Abbiati being severely exposed , because he's sucks at making exits , it's vital today to have that
Poor teamwork and coperation within our defenders

that's why 2 seasons in an row we suck so much against corners and set pieces. Imo , it's time Tassoti left the club , Seedorf was right to call for his head this summer , irregardless of what happened. We have D.Lopez who can make an exit alright and also Rami and Alex who are generaly good in aerial play . Still , it remains to be seen just how different it will be and i doubt either Alex or Rami can be near the same in organising and setting up the defence , whenever asked on the spot

With that said , I don't presume to think the issue will dissapear , but imho it won't be enough as to cost us entire positions in Serie A . Problem is i don't have the slightest idea who would replace Tassoti , so it's not something i feel comfortable expressing. Firing him is only half the job done. But imo , with proper set ups and the core of defence we have , we can avoid conceding so much from corners , we're the worst in Serie A there .
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Post by Forza Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:56 am

Ultimately, no matter how bad some of the players are, we still aren't even doing the basics right. I'd like to see our squad culled by half and our entire coaching staff sacked. Not to mention that our management is still terrible.
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Post by Dante Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:09 am

I agree , but finding good coaching stuff must be particularly difficult. That's why many top managers around the world drag their own staff wherever they go. And it works for the best , for Ancelotti , for Pep , for Mourinho.. i will through Benitez in there even (and obviously many other coaches do this).

Problem is , the coach has the final say . Inzaghi either leaves it all on Tassoti on that part , or he just agrees about it. He says they have been working on it so much , well , if that's what they have to show after working on it so much , then it's pretty sad.

Great coaches have great coaching stuff too . It'll be easier to bring in a coach who has an established coaching stuff behind him , rather keep Inzaghi and fire the rest.

IMO , recognising that our main problem is the management , it's a bit tough to call for Pippo's head , despite being absolutely not satisfied. But if we were to have a new coach , we BADLY need an established one.

At the moment , and i will say this being as much objective as i can be , having Pippo coaching Milan when coaches like Spalleti and Prandelli are free , is simply laughable . That's what i really think , right or wrong.

Any of the two and at least we would be watching some proper football , forget about the rest . But sadly , i've come to suspect really good or great coaches probably don't want to work for Milan because of our lack of investment , that's why we got a 2nd noob coach in a row.
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Post by Kaladin Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:02 am

Milan vs SaToLanta - Page 6 CorruptAshamedDutchshepherddog

Just found this gif, we're lining up 2 walls for a FK Laughing

Maybe a new set piece strategy from the set piece coach we hired in the summer hmm
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