Enchanted Forest Borussia Dortmund

Is there any other club around where players shine and then don't really get happy after leaving it?

- Lucas Barrios (disappeared into nowhere)
- Nuri Sahin (he's back into the fold again)
- Shinji Kagawa (seems to be on the way back, too)
- Felipe Santana (he's real mess at Schalke)

(Seemingly) not as good as at Dortmund (the verdict ist still out):
- Mario Götze
- Robert Lewandowski

Lewandowski is doing fine

Didn't Lewandowski just score in Bayern's 2nd league game?

And Götze scored the winner in the World Cup final just this summer.

Sahin and Kagawa were real failures, though.

I don't really agree that Kagawa was a failure though.
It's not his fault he joined a team in decay and with no use for his strengths.

Hapless_Hans wrote:I don't really agree that Kagawa was a failure though.
It's not his fault he joined a team in decay and with no use for his strengths.

^ absolutely mate. It wasnt Kagawas fault at all. we never gave him a fair chance in his natural position.

and Moyes that *^^**^%% ruined him like no manchester united fan could even possibly think of. Shortsighted bleep gave a then ostracized (by saf) rooney a 5 year contract and made him the main man. and then when his own future was at stake, he persuaded the club to break its transfer record to sign mata thereby totally killing off shinji's career.

Its a harsh reality these glory hunting Manchester united bleeps (from redcafe mainly ) right now are getting confronted with when they see mata repeatedly failing as an AM and is interested more in wandering off high up the pitch to occupy a poachers position thereby thwarting the team of any sort of linkup play from midfield to attack. kagawa if he was given at least 10 games there to play as a CAM he would have really sparkled, I am sure about that.
Instead we are now selling him a decision which has more to do with his own than his managers probably owing to a clarification from lvgs side about even lesser game time this season. So he chose to move unfortunately. even though its the correct decision for his own good.

Best of Luck to him. And he will come good pretty soon , I am dead cert confident regarding that. rated him and I am still rating him high.

So at least in kagawas case well this omen thing is not true.

Kagawa started off well, but after that he's just been nowhere to be seen. Tidy on the ball without real attacking contribution, even though he's a CAM. For the last 9 months I think he's just submitted to the fact that he's never going to be a key player for United.

What makes this ironic is that I believe Kagawa would contribute more than Mata right now.

Art Morte wrote:Didn't Lewandowski just score in Bayern's 2nd league game?

And Götze scored the winner in the World Cup final just this summer.

Sahin and Kagawa were real failures, though.

Hapless_Hans wrote:I don't really agree that Kagawa was a failure though.
It's not his fault he joined a team in decay and with no use for his strengths.

Sorry but these are two horrible arguments.

@Art

Smh that is like saying Torres won the Golden Boot with Spain, so he wasn't a flop.

@Hans

Can't you say the same thing about every player that flops at a new club? "Oh he wasn't used properly". You can literally make an excuse for ever player that has flopped.

no Blue what I'm saying is that I thought he played well WHEN he was used, certainly, in my opinion warranting being used again through his performances, but that then didn't happen.
I'm talking about last season, no idea how it was in his first.
For example when RvP was out and he played behind Rooney.

That's why I say I don't find it to be a 'flop', since he didn't play bad, he just didn't play.
Of course that's semantics, but it is a difference I think.

rwo power wrote:Is there any other club around where players shine and then don't really get happy after leaving it?

- Lucas Barrios (disappeared into nowhere)
- Nuri Sahin (he's back into the fold again)
- Shinji Kagawa (seems to be on the way back, too)
- Felipe Santana (he's real mess at Schalke)

(Seemingly) not as good as at Dortmund (the verdict ist still out):
- Mario Götze
- Robert Lewandowski

Tbh the only player i rated is Sahin, so for me he is the only that flopped. Barrios lost his place to Lewa, didn't really left at high point and he went to China. Many players have gone to oblivion after going the money route to China and Russia, i may also say much more better players have done that then the average Barrios.

Santana was he much more then a squad player at Dortmund, hardly a good player to begin with.

Kagawa a better player then the previous two, but playing for United was way out of his depth imo.

I strongly believe Klopp gets the best out of his player, but beside Sahin i don't believe any of those players had that great a fall in their performance.

Hm. For some reason people think I said they flopped - my point was more they weren't really happy away as it seemed. ^^

And saying they are not as good elsewhere than at Dortmund doesn't mean they flopped either. You seem to project black/white everywhere, but there is more than just world class vs flop. I meant I have the impression that Kloppo manages to get the very best out of his players and somehow other coaches often don't really know what to do with the guys that leave Dortmund.

Some of these players are just good enough for the Bundesliga.. that's it.

I don't think Gotze will be successful with Bayern either. He'll be back in a couple of years I think.

Lewa will though. He may just be the only one of the lot that succeeds.

Obviously not counting Reus. When he comes home he'll win Balon d'Or every year

what people forget is that Götze only just now turned 22.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me it is very natural and normal for players who rise to top level very early and rapidly to have some kind of tougher year at the age he's in right now.

ExtremistEnigma wrote:Some of these players are just good enough for the Bundesliga.. that's it.

Or the coaching in the Bundesliga is better

rwo power wrote:

ExtremistEnigma wrote:Some of these players are just good enough for the Bundesliga.. that's it.

Or the coaching in the Bundesliga is better

Right, because every coach that leaves Germany does brilliantly in others leagues like Felix Magath.

of course coaching in the Bundesliga is better than in the Prem, that's really not controversial.

1. Lucas Barrios (No idea about him)
2. Nuri Sahin (Wasn't great on his return to Dortmund)
3. Shinji Kagawa (Jury is still out)
4. Felipe Santana (He wasn't that great for Dortmund)
5. Mario Götze (Got time on his side)
6. Robert Lewandowski (Too early)

Hapless_Hans wrote:no Blue what I'm saying is that I thought he played well WHEN he was used, certainly, in my opinion warranting being used again through his performances, but that then didn't happen.
I'm talking about last season, no idea how it was in his first.
For example when RvP was out and he played behind Rooney.

That's why I say I don't find it to be a 'flop', since he didn't play bad, he just didn't play.
Of course that's semantics, but it is a difference I think.

fyi nothing like that happened. well at least not to the extent it should have happened. When RVP was injured Moyes did 3 things

1. In majority of the games He played welbeck instead rvp ( as the clown rated welbeck quite a lot if we recall) and brought rooney back to his 'free' role a.k.a 'role in the hole' keeping kagawa out most of the time where as in some games he deployed shinji again only on the left (and that only when young stunk so badly on the left).
2. In a couple or more games he did start shinji from the center but then very quickly he altered it by making wlebeck who played on the left to come to the center and once again moving shinji to the left (and that I can tell yaa has got nothing to do with shinji's performance at all, the whole team was playing shite and the only thing moyes could ever think of to change it was to make that move)
3. rvp was injured quite a lot, or rather he preferred to be like that last season more, so he was injured post December as well. so what did moyes do. right he brought Mata and then kagawa was totally shut off.

I am not saying he wasnt played in the no.10 role. He was. But only once in a blue moon. and even after seeing he delivering above average stuff most of the time moyes didnt bother to give it a go on a regular basis. He changed it in the next match and brought in two of his illegitimate sons young and valencia yet again.

there was one game where Mata, Kagawa, and Januzaj played behind Rooney and you played well and won comfortably, probably the one good game under Moyes in 2014, somewhen in February I guess.

But as I said, one game, you play well and win, and then change back to Valencia nd Young for the important matches

hmm maybe my memory is wrong, but I see now there were a string of games you won comfortably in February/March, against mid/lower table teams, when Kagawa was starting alongside Mata.
Would be interesting to see a statistic of points won per game WITH and WITHOUT Kagawa last season, I'm pretty sure it would show Utd were more successful when he was playing.

Hapless_Hans wrote:there was one game where Mata, Kagawa, and Januzaj played behind Rooney and you played well and won comfortably, probably the one good game under Moyes in 2014, somewhen in February I guess.

But as I said, one game, you play well and win, and then change back to Valencia nd Young for the important matches

yep. the game against Newcastle. and in that one too Kagawa was played out of his natural position on the left. Yet He was the orchestrator in that match. The POM even though he didnt make it onto either the score or assist list. He controlled the game in that match. Only cos of him Mata excelled, and its a huge irony that mata has only excelled for us until now when Shinji was playing with him.

So some of these comments I find here in this thread saying Kagawa is not quality and all. he is out of depth to fit at United and all...lol. they havent even seen him playing for us. only looked at the numbers and are coming to conclusions.
what a pity. probably one of the most underrated players of recent past.
You cannot blame a player when every factor upon which his performance will depend turned against him. come on. He is an Asian. yet he adjusted quite nicely to life in England. and He did very well in his first season despite the fact that he was injured he contributed a lot of assists and even scored one of the coolest hat-tricks I have ever scene in a game against Norwich. And just when things started to look bright. it got totally thwarted by a moron who should have never come here in the first place.

Hapless_Hans wrote:hmm maybe my memory is wrong, but I see now there were a string of games you won comfortably in February/March, against mid/lower table teams, when Kagawa was starting alongside Mata.
Would be interesting to see a statistic of points won per game WITH and WITHOUT Kagawa last season, I'm pretty sure it would show Utd were more successful when he was playing.

Yea you are right it was instant improvement to the dross of usual when kagawa was used in a match. Eventhough none of his teammates where on the same wavelength as him, he tried to make things happen by deft quick passes and touches. Its just that the entire team was static, there was no room for a player of kagawas caliber in it unfortunately. So instead of blaming the shite we played, we are blaming the one who is making us to play better. Thats what we did.

Mata thrived under the influence of Shinji. He produced end results in the form of assists and more notably goals something SHinji thanks to what his manager has done to him couldnt. redcafe users were the most critical of him when they saw a player devoid of any sort of confidence and self belief missing goal scoring opportunities and not even bothering to attempt to shoot instead of pondering the reasons they thrashed him and called him not upto the level we need and shet; which sadly is a huge irony since we havent even shown any level whatsoever since SAF's final season. and at the same time they praised mata without realizing that it was kagawa who was making mata work. Yet despite all that low confidence and the stuff he was going through he still managed to perform decently and sometimes admirably when he was called upon.
agreed that towards the end of the last season he gave up giving his everything as he might have then realized he would never make it here despite trying so hard earlier.
its so sad. Because we have really lost a real gem of a player. a player who unfortunately came to us at a wrong time. Now as a Shinji fan all I can do is hope that he will come really good once again.

just 2014 games:

1.1.   loss against Spurs    -  Kagawa doesn't start
11.1. win against Swansea -  Kagawa starts
19.1. loss against Chelsea  -  doesn't start
28.1. win against Cardiff    -  doesn't start
2.2    loss against Stoke    -  doesn't start
9.2.   draw against Fulham -  doesn't start
12.2. draw against Arsenal -  doesn't start
22.2. win against Palace    -  doesn't start
8.3.   win at West Brom     -  doesn't start
16.3. loss to Liverpool       -  doesn't start
22.3. win at West Ham      -  starts
25.3. loss to City              -  doesn't start
29.3. win against Villa        - starts
5.4. win against Newcastle - starts
20.4. loss at Everton         - starts
26.4. win against Norwich   - starts
3.5. loss to Sunderland       - doesn't start
6.5. win against Hull           - starts
11.5. draw at Southhampton -  doesn't start


Pretty obvious not Kagawa was flopping, but Manchester United

He was arguably man of the match in that Swansea game as well, then doesn't start for 8 games

^ thanks man for that stats. hopefully it will change peoples' views a little bit.