If Italy wins Brazil 2014, do they become the greatest NT?

Considering they would both have 5 cups and Italy would (hypothetically) win one in Brazilian turf, would that be enough to asset them as the greatest?

No. It's well documented that they cheated their way to glory in the Mussolini era. Historically they also played shit on a stick most of the time. Brazil would remain the best World Cup NT of all time. They have teams that didn't win the whole thing and are still remembered more than many winning teams 30 years later.

Fußball wrote:No. It's well documented that they cheated their way to glory in the Mussolini era. Historically they also played shit on a stick most of the time. Brazil would remain the best World Cup NT of all time. They have teams that didn't win the whole thing and are still remembered more than many winning teams 30 years later.

Which is an utterly fallacious statement born out of speakeasy gossip and gonzo journalism akin to Barça fans blaming Franco for Real Madrid success; so let's cut out the "well documented gossip" without any base.

Added with the fact that Pozzo's Italia's prime years were wasted over from WWII, something no one mentions along with the Superga disaster having Italia lose 10out of their 11 starters.

Fußball wrote:No. It's well documented that they cheated their way to glory in the Mussolini era. Historically they also played shit on a stick most of the time. Brazil would remain the best World Cup NT of all time. They have teams that didn't win the whole thing and are still remembered more than many winning teams 30 years later.

Sort yourself out son this is shameful, smh ffs

Sorry it's compulsory as an Aussie to bring this up whenever Italy is brought up.

mr-r34 wrote:

Sorry it's compulsory as an Aussie to bring this up whenever Italy is brought up.

Dont be sorry for preaching the truth

Arquitescu wrote:

Fußball wrote:No. It's well documented that they cheated their way to glory in the Mussolini era. Historically they also played shit on a stick most of the time. Brazil would remain the best World Cup NT of all time. They have teams that didn't win the whole thing and are still remembered more than many winning teams 30 years later.

Which is an utterly fallacious statement born out of speakeasy gossip and gonzo journalism akin to Barça fans blaming Franco for Real Madrid success; so let's cut out the "well documented gossip" without any base.

Added with the fact that Pozzo's Italia's prime years were wasted over from WWII, something no one mentions along with the Superga disaster having Italia lose 10out of their 11 starters.

I'm always open to widen my horizon. If you can explain how a referee can disallow legit goals, not call legit penalties, allow so much rough play that the opponent gets down to 8 men due to injuries and to top it all off allows an irregular goal where Meazza is jumping on the goalkeeper - all in a single game. Which Meazza then repeats in the semis when the Austrian goalkeeper is bodychecked by him, drops the ball and it rolls into the net. The ref even clears a cross for Italy. A referee who has been a guest of honour in Mussolini's banquette a day prior to the game. As a reward he gets not only appointed for the semis but also for the finals. Raimundo Orsi, one of the players for Italy at the time revealed in 1978 in his biography that the ref was on their side and without his help they would have probably been killed by Mussolini. I don't know how that is gossip.

Fußball wrote: and to top it all off allows an irregular goal where Meazza is jumping on the goalkeeper - all in a single game. Which Meazza then repeats in the semis when the Austrian goalkeeper is bodychecked by him, drops the ball and it rolls into the net.

On that regard, clotheslining a goalkeeper would be deemed a fair shoulder charge once upon a time

mr-r34 wrote:

Sorry it's compulsory as an Aussie to bring this up whenever Italy is brought up.

Sorry this event pisses me off more than any and I constantly get defensive over it.

Sure Grosso may have taking advantage of a pathetic attempt of a tackle, but who wouldn't? I want you to watch that scenario again... where is Lucas Neill going, what the hell is he trying to tackle? You don't go down in the box, unless you're going to win the ball, that's the #1 rule. Also, Materazzi's red for tackling his own player, everyone forgets to mention... and all the other games Italy won without a penalty, no one mentions... trolls, trolls everywhere, and I fall into the trap every time. It's not like Australia would've beaten Germany and France afterward.

I think that Italy would be considered the greatest national team alongside with Brazil, I don't see why they wouldn't be.

It's ok Zarola some of us understand. Keep fighting the good fight.

If only they played eye pleasing football like the Brazil teams. Biggest reason Brazil is considered as by far the legendary NT is because of their style of play, more precisely because of their high flair players.

If Germany wins in Brazil, will they be better than Italy?

Fußball wrote:

Arquitescu wrote:

Fußball wrote:No. It's well documented that they cheated their way to glory in the Mussolini era. Historically they also played shit on a stick most of the time. Brazil would remain the best World Cup NT of all time. They have teams that didn't win the whole thing and are still remembered more than many winning teams 30 years later.

Which is an utterly fallacious statement born out of speakeasy gossip and gonzo journalism akin to Barça fans blaming Franco for Real Madrid success; so let's cut out the "well documented gossip" without any base.

Added with the fact that Pozzo's Italia's prime years were wasted over from WWII, something no one mentions along with the Superga disaster having Italia lose 10out of their 11 starters.

I'm always open to widen my horizon. If you can explain how a referee can disallow legit goals, not call legit penalties, allow so much rough play that the opponent gets down to 8 men due to injuries and to top it all off allows an irregular goal where Meazza is jumping on the goalkeeper - all in a single game. Which Meazza then repeats in the semis when the Austrian goalkeeper is bodychecked by him, drops the ball and it rolls into the net. The ref even clears a cross for Italy. A referee who has been a guest of honour in Mussolini's banquette a day prior to the game. As a reward he gets not only appointed for the semis but also for the finals. Raimundo Orsi, one of the players for Italy at the time revealed in 1978 in his biography that the ref was on their side and without his help they would have probably been killed by Mussolini. I don't know how that is gossip.

Referee officiating was not what it is now considering it was in its nascent stages as such rules of contact were nowhere near as enforced as they are now.

Such an incident would be parrelel to Leônidas' goal vs España in the first round of the 1934 WC, Kroon's 79th min ghost goal vs Argentina to get them through, Bican's (Austria) ET goal vs France result of some strong arm tactics. Conen of Germany scoring two goals vs Belgium despite one being offside by a mile and the other done by Siffing pulling back the Belgian CB to allow space for Conen's 2nd.

Eklind was known as one of the finest referees of his time and officiated more than 6 world cups over a 16 year era. René Mercet was supposed to officiate the final until he was suspended by the Swiss FA due to his officiating in the quarter-final between Italia-España.

Half of these claims came from Mussolini opposers in the form of Royalists and the respective journalists yet the truth is he did not have such claimed hand in the games considering the widespread conflict in reports at such a time. Mussollini couldn't even keep track of his mistress as he was not in the same cut as Franco, showing very little interest in football as it wasn't used for political frontage at that time, especially considering then FIFA president Jules Rimet was not in the best terms with Benito.

How did Italia prove that they could win without speculation? They did so 4 years later in the 1938 World Cup without any such incidents, if anything, being the victim of some sketchy calls vs France and Brazil in the QF and SF consequitively.

Better to look at the farcical 1966 World Cup in which a then English FIFA president Stanley Rous had considerably more power than previous predecessors, an English referee denying Uruguay a clear penalty vs Germany and ejecting 2 of their players for no reason, or the offside goal vs Argentina and ejecting their player for a baffling reason.

Other incidents such as West Germany's supposed decade long doping also are seldom mentioned considering it was in a time where these incidens could actiay be documented rather than conflicted archives.

I like Fussball  as poster but in this case lol

Anyway i can understand it , he is a German guy and so it's normal he can't talk well about Italian football, I mean , there are more chances I have sex with Bar Refaeli than German wins against Italy .

Italy of Pozzo was simply a legendary NT (on the other hand Meazza is the best Inter player ever, and we had so many top players in 100 years) , capable to win even in enemy (for politician reasons) France the following WC and we had hostile ambience for the whole competition but it was not enough to avoid our victory ( it happened often in that period, Fiorenzo Magni had to retire from Tour De France in 1950 when he was 1st because French ppl couldn't tolerate an Italian victory ) but I image referee tried to help also that time..

We won also Olympic Games in 1936 ( the level was similar to WC, but evidently it's destiny Italy wins in Germany ) , basically just the war and Superga stopped that NT

All the NT tend to be helped when they organize WC in their country  ,  but it was nothing of scandalous  . So much gossip only because Italy was a Fascist country.
Even Arq, half Spanish , doesn't find excuses for Zamora' s absence in replay.

tbh the only controversy really listened about that WC before of this thread.

About the thread, it won't happen anyway . This is sure. We are extremely able to miss the sliding doors.

if we won the Rimet Cup in 1970 we rose to 3 wins and Brazil to 2 ( and we would have won definitely the Rimet Cup) , and same thing for 1994. But Brazil rose to 4 and we 3 because of penality kicks

zarola wrote:
Also, Materazzi's red for tackling his own player, everyone forgets to mention...

*
red card to Materazzi was ridicolous.
It was not penalty kick on Grosso for me, but it compensated that injustice.

Robespierre wrote:evidently it's destiny Italy wins in Germany

On the other hand, in 1990, Germany won the thing in Italy.

rwo power wrote:

Robespierre wrote:evidently it's destiny Italy wins in Germany

On the other hand, in 1990, Germany won the thing in Italy.

Euro '80 too

Hm. Maybe we should support Italy to host one of the next Euros and/or World Cups

Anyway belittling Italy victories in comparison with Brazil it doesn't make sense

So what about Brazil that plays with Garrincha indeed banned for final against Cecoslovacchia but he is incredibly rehabilitated and he will make the difference in that final ?!?

Hmm so in this case I guess it has to do with Truman Doctrine

all the NTs" have a skeleton in the closet".

But if we degenerate with gossip we can have a similar palmares of WC winners then :

North Korea > Italy :

Robespierre wrote:

North Korea > Italy :

Yet again Brazil>everyone

I was partly trolling tbh. I just googled up the 1934 incidents in 5 minutes which I only ever knew off from hearsay so I could get Arqy to write an informative essay about it which I will read later.

The part where I wasn't trolling was the shit on a stick style of football.

of course I agree about the fact we will not have same appeal than Brazil.
even when we had their same WC titles, just 20 years ago , Brazil was rated equally as the real , the pure , the best representation of football .
Our model of defence and counterattack is not appreciated as it deserve, but it is always been so . All hate catenaccio , to words, but then most tend to imitate it.
Only the Italy of WC 1978 played in Argentina would have satisfied all , it played an amazing football largely the best Italy ever about the amusing football in WC history.  It was enough atypical considering our traditional game style . I grew with the myth of that Italy 78 and infact I could testify  it when I saw recently the replays of those matches . Young and entertaining NT.
We were close to win that WC , we won also against Argentina  in group stage . but we finished 4th . It was the milestone for Spain 1982 anyway.