Re: Serie A: Are the low goal counts predominantly because of a lack of talent or a higher regard for tactical discipline?

by DeviAngel Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:04 pm

Tomwin Lannister wrote:I don't think Dzeko would be amongst the top 3 at all, maybe and it's a big maybe if he was being spoon fed chances.

Tevez, Rossi, Higuain, Gomez, Balo, Llorente all better than him. A few more would be up there too if they were starting consistently for a decent side.

Whenever I see Dzeko he looks awkward, blundering about and taking awful pot shots from impossible angles. The man is a Donkey.

damn you are wrong ...

by rwo power Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:04 pm

@Arqui

Well, nonetheless Dzeko and Grafite were the perfect team, which culminated in the BL Championship for Wolfsburg ^^

by DeviAngel Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:06 pm

rwo power wrote:@Arqui

Well, nonetheless Dzeko and Grafite were the perfect team, which culminated in the BL Championship for Wolfsburg ^^

grafite I used to cry for that man I wanted him to join us damn...

by McAgger Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:07 pm

rwo power wrote:@Arqui

Well, nonetheless Dzeko and Grafite were the perfect team, which culminated in the BL Championship for Wolfsburg ^^

I would argue that the best and most important player on that championship team was Zvjezdan Misimovic.

by Tomwin Lannister Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:07 pm

Devi, you were equally confident about Matri when he was with Juve. And we both know who was right about that.

by Arquitecto Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:08 pm

McAgger wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:
McAgger wrote:

Well you neglect to name the best player in the league in Suarez. Then there is Sturridge who is a part of the highest goal scoring top flight team in Europe atm. Then there are world class forwards like Rooney and RVP who are playing under a clown in Moyes. Serie A's own golden boys Jovetic and Lamela who can't even get on the pitch in the PL.

Quit fishing

Ah yes Jovetic who hasn't appeared in enough appearances for him to settle while playing a role to which he is not accustomed to. Given your fanship and monitoring of Jovetic I find it curious as to how you've used him to support you argument. Lamela playing a winger in Spurs, the same ones who play Eriksen out wide while playing Townshend above Lamela.

Moyes is shit yet that does not have van Persie forgetting how to perform the most basic of passes or shots anymore while Roonay has not been a forward for quite some while.

What does Sturridge have to do with the argument considering he has not played anywhere outside the English league?

@Alfred And how would Dzeko be the best striker in Serie A? On the basis of what? We all know what City in their incurred tendencies to play players outside their zones without the adaptation process does to them. Dzeko was played differently under Magath while in City he is being used as a bit part targetman whose shockingly low confidence has resulted in a decline of skill.

You misunderstood me Arq, my man. I was just listing Elm_Baraja the attacking talent that the PL possesses. Not in a single alternative dimension can that post be interpreted as a dig at Serie A or PL's superiority. Just that there are more attacking talent in PL than the sole 5 players that Elm Baraja thinks.

My apologies brotha.

Personally I think both Mole's and Elm's debate of offensive talent takes the crux of judging such a macro factor is flawed as there are tenfold more factors that have to be judged in order to form a clear conclusion. Frankly there is no conclusion because the variables that amount to each league along with the constants used on the basis of trends make it near impossible to judge the difference, which is why Europe must not be held as the measure of the "best league" but as to who adapts to the current trend cycles the most efficiently.

@RWO: Never would doubt that. It was a partnership that saved Magath's numerous tactical blunders even with a weakened Bayern Munich as its sad it lasted for such a short space of time.

by DeviAngel Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:08 pm

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Devi, you were equally confident about Matri when he was with Juve. And we both know who was right about that.

Dzeko is class above Matri mate.

by Tomwin Lannister Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:09 pm

So am I but i'd flop in serie A too Proud

by rwo power Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:09 pm

McAgger wrote:Didn't realize Lewandowski never became BL top scorer. Thought he was scoring 30 a season the years Dortmund won the Bundesliga and even last year.

Nope, for some reason the BL top scorers only score a fraction of the goals of the top scoreres in La Ligue or so.

Interestingly, Serie A currently have a couple of former BL top scorers (Klose, Gomez, Dzeko, Toni), but unfortunately at a time when they are not as good anymore due to age or injury. I hope that at least Mario Gómez will manage to have one in jury free season soon, so that one could compare what amount of goals he can score in Serie A while being fully fit.

by S Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:11 pm

Have to agree with Devi here.

Dzeko would look a totally different player in another team.The guy has still got it imo.

by Tomwin Lannister Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:14 pm

I'd say he would manage 15 goals in the league if the conditions were right

This notion that he's still a top class striker is just wrong.
There is no chance he would be 'among the best' in serie A if the likes of Rossi and Gomez stayed fit.

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:15 pm

Only Higuain, Tevez, Rossi and Balo are noticeably better. Dzeko is definitely good enough to fight Llorente and Gomez for that 5th spot.

Anyways the thread is not about Dzeko but about scoring in Calcio.

by Arquitecto Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:18 pm

Praise for Carbon-Ferrite Graphite was deserved yet he was in his marked prime within 2008-09 as after that he reached a steady decline the year after was (30 believe it or not) while Dzonkey was around 22-24.

Graphite now plays for some Arab club called Al-Faloouda or something.

by Lupi Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:45 am

if you ask me i say its a bit of both , looking at the bigger picture serie A never had an striker who scored as much as strikers in La Liga as benzema recently celebrated his 100 goals for RM despite that even talking to RM fans they will tell you about all his misses and lack of consistency , does that mean serie A strikers in history were below average? of coarse not . Then again the transfer of superstars/world class players to other leagues , financial problems makes it difficult for teams to hold on to their players but is it all bad? as one has make mockery of immobile for example ,i say no that leave an space for players like him to get playing time and show their worth ( in his case he might leave to Dortmund as they were scouting him for over 3 years) .

by BarcaLearning Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:08 am

I wonder since some people saying the Italians are master at tactics, how did Mou walk into the league and win it almost straight away and beating everyone to win the treble?

by Rossoneri Ninja Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:00 am

He had Zlatan, the others didn't.

by zizzle Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:31 am

BarcaLearning wrote:I wonder since some people saying the Italians are master at tactics, how did Mou walk into the league and win it almost straight away and beating everyone to win the treble?

1- Mou himself talked numerous times about how Serie A is the hardest league to win and how Italian coaches were very tactical

2- Inter was miles ahead of the competition, including a Juvi team that was still recovering from Calciopoli, a Milan team at the end of a great cycle, and a Roma team that didnt have the finances to compete with Inter. Despite this Serie A wasnt a walk in the park and Mou had to earn those titles, especially the 2nd one.

by BarcaLearning Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:50 am

zizzle wrote:
BarcaLearning wrote:I wonder since some people saying the Italians are master at tactics, how did Mou walk into the league and win it almost straight away and beating everyone to win the treble?

1- Mou himself talked numerous times about how Serie A is the hardest league to win and how Italian coaches were very tactical

2- Inter was miles ahead of the competition, including a Juvi team that was still recovering from Calciopoli, a Milan team at the end of a great cycle, and a Roma team that didnt have the finances to compete with Inter. Despite this Serie A wasnt a walk in the park and Mou had to earn those titles, especially the 2nd one.

Thx. Im not saying Italians are not what they are, but I guess Mou is just that good, together with the reasons u mentioned. Still, Inter didnt succeed with all the other managers they had including Italian ones so I dunno Razz

As for the topic, maybe if we look at the stats for the goals scored in total in the past 5 or 10 years or something, and compare it with say EPL it would be interesting.

It must be a big part to do with the style and tactics of cos though.

by Art Morte Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:33 am

Are there differences in training methods and intensity? hmm

Serie A's pace or tempo seems a little slower to me, which might mean a lower goal-average, if defenses have more time to organize themselves and react to turnovers in possession etc. I could be imagining it, though.

by sportsczy Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:02 am

Speed of play in the league dictates goals... EPL and Bundi play direct and fast styles mostly. La Liga is possession-based, so a bit slower than those two. Serie A is by far the slowest and has always been.

CL gets skewed by the elite teams crapping on the smaller ones. Since you only have 1-3 elite teams per league and you have 10 in CL... the impact is greater.

Just generally though, i've felt that the quality of defenders has gone down in Serie A. Not too long ago (until probably 2009ish), Serie A had the best defenders in the world unquestionably. Now, i think they're probably on the lower end of the spectrum. So there also has to be a decrease in striker-quality since the goals haven't gone up.

by Helmer Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:23 am

all people saying Dzeko 'this and that' , just let him come to Dortmund in this summer and you all will start fapping to his name again :coffee:

by Forza Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:41 am

sportsczy wrote:Speed of play in the league dictates goals... EPL and Bundi play direct and fast styles mostly. La Liga is possession-based, so a bit slower than those two. Serie A is by far the slowest and has always been.

CL gets skewed by the elite teams crapping on the smaller ones. Since you only have 1-3 elite teams per league and you have 10 in CL... the impact is greater.

Just generally though, i've felt that the quality of defenders has gone down in Serie A. Not too long ago (until probably 2009ish), Serie A had the best defenders in the world unquestionably. Now, i think they're probably on the lower end of the spectrum. So there also has to be a decrease in striker-quality since the goals haven't gone up.

I think this is a general trend, but also around that time you have a very strong Inter with defensive-minded Mourinho as manager and shortly afterwards a Milan side with the Nesta - T. Silva wall at it's core. Since then: Inter aged and Mou left, Milan hit financial trouble, Juve rose up from the B and got some solid defenders on board, and now you have other teams with less of a reputation developing and purchasing good defenders. Although, I will say that it remains a mystery to me how Napoli are doing relatively well with such a weak defence on paper. Anyway, this trend is cyclical. After the World Cup, I am quite sure that a new generation of great defenders will rise to prominence in Serie A.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:30 pm

Arquitescu wrote:

Rossi? Maybe you haven't figured out that he is actually GOOD player or how he spent every single day since his recovery training with Montella and La Nazionale's coverciano grueling semantic in which they make you play in 4 different formations every week until recovery is scientically processed.

Not about Rossi himself.... more that a player whose record of most goals in a league campaign is 18 had 14 goals this season before Christmas and would have smashed said record if he stayed fit.

Doesn't really hold the argument that its a league which is defensive superior.... my point was that Rossi had 14 before Christmas why did it take nearly 3 months later for someone to equal that tally?

Could it be that Rossi is actually a quality forward ( still overrated by this forum) but i digress.

While the rest of the league lacks in quality offensive talent to produce similar goal outputs.

If top quality players like Ibra and Cavani and other past talents struggled to score then you might have a point but fact is they never did so i don't see where your argument is coming from really.

by Tomwin Lannister Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:44 pm

BarcaLearning wrote:
zizzle wrote:
BarcaLearning wrote:I wonder since some people saying the Italians are master at tactics, how did Mou walk into the league and win it almost straight away and beating everyone to win the treble?

1- Mou himself talked numerous times about how Serie A is the hardest league to win and how Italian coaches were very tactical

2- Inter was miles ahead of the competition, including a Juvi team that was still recovering from Calciopoli, a Milan team at the end of a great cycle, and a Roma team that didnt have the finances to compete with Inter. Despite this Serie A wasnt a walk in the park and Mou had to earn those titles, especially the 2nd one.

Thx. Im not saying Italians are not what they are, but I guess Mou is just that good, together with the reasons u mentioned. Still, Inter didnt succeed with all the other managers they had including Italian ones so I dunno

As for the topic, maybe if we look at the stats for the goals scored in total in the past 5 or 10 years or something, and compare it with say EPL it would be interesting.

It must be a big part to do with the style and tactics of cos though.

The league was a mess, and Inters squad was head & shoulders above the competition. If Mou took over Napoli for example right now, he wouldn't win the league.

by Robespierre Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:59 pm

Anyway I don't remember so many goals in Serie A as this year scratch

this matchday (few goals) was a bit particular

for a period Juve scored for average of 4 goals per game ....

Yes it 's definitely above the rest of squads in Serie A as it was Inter in past years , but I do not know if it's the only motivation because not only Juve scored more than past.

by Casciavit Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:17 pm

To be fair to Rossi, he does have quite the supporting cast behind him.

I'm quite sure a lot of forwards would thrive when they get there service from the likes of Pizzaro, Aquilani, Borja and Cuadrado.

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