How Many Undeserving Players Will Finish Higher than Victor in the Goal.com 50

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Post by BarcaKizz Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:31 pm

Now I know we all don't really rate Goal.com as a credible website anymore. It gives out the goss and we consume it so I guess at the end of the day its partly our fault, but at the very least the crap they write does provide an incentive for discussion/a laugh.

This year, the Goal.com 50 has placed Victor Valdes at number 46. The same Victor Valdes that was probably only third to Neuer and VDS this season across Europe, and quite possibly the only reason he isn't higher than them is that at Barca, he just didn't get as many chances to show off his form as much as Neuer did. He was consistently flawless and the saviour many a time this season. If people can't recognise that making 1 or 2 gamebreaking 1v1 saves game after game is just as good, if not better, than saving shots flying in regularly, then I'm quite frankly puzzled. Has always been an extraordinarily talented keeper, and right now he's the best 1v1 keeper around and actually probably makes less mistakes these days than his competitors (Casillas, Neuer, De Gea...etc). Its just ridiculous that some people still don't rate him, their reason being... Barca has a good defence Shocked

Anyway, being placed at number 46 means quite a few players have to be considered better than him. So this thread is basically which players do you believe have been unfairly awarded a higher place than Valdes.

To help you out, here are the players rated so far:

50. Kompany
49. Xabi Alonso
48. Gotze
47. Barrios
46. Valdes
45. Fabregas
44. Raul
43. Gervinho
42. Hummels
41. Yaya Toure
40. Iker Casillas
39. Marcelo
38. Nasri

--------------

My opinion?

45. Fabregas... Very ordinary season by Fab. Outshone by both Wilshere and Nasri. No chance in hell he deserves to be above Victor.

44. Raul... Raul had a good season, did well for Schalke. Maybe he should be higher too, but I'm not sure whether he was better than the GK of the European champions.

40. Iker Casillas... Well here is the easiest comparison yet... WTf? Casillas is a great keeper but its quite simple, he wasn't better than Valdes this season. Great in some of the Classicos but Valdes did nothing wrong either. Sick of Iker riding his rep. I respect this guy a lot, he's definitely one of the best keepers I've seen, but this season Victor deserves the credit.

Didn't see enough of Hummels and Gervinho to judge, but I'm a bit sceptical here too.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:46 pm

Hummels was one of the best defender's in europe last year Kizz, probably only Thiago Silva and Vidic were better and even they are debatable.

He deserves to be above Valdes imo but i agree with the rest of the people you named.
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Post by ChollaVille Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:03 pm

goal.com LOL
they are not relevant Very Happy
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Post by the xcx Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:04 pm

@BarcaKizz wrote:Now I know we all don't really rate Goal.com as a credible website anymore. It gives out the goss and we consume it so I guess at the end of the day its partly our fault, but at the very least the crap they write does provide an incentive for discussion/a laugh.

This year, the Goal.com 50 has placed Victor Valdes at number 46. The same Victor Valdes that was probably only third to Neuer and VDS this season across Europe, and quite possibly the only reason he isn't higher than them is that at Barca, he just didn't get as many chances to show off his form as much as Neuer did. He was consistently flawless and the saviour many a time this season. If people can't recognise that making 1 or 2 gamebreaking 1v1 saves game after game is just as good, if not better, than saving shots flying in regularly, then I'm quite frankly puzzled. Has always been an extraordinarily talented keeper, and right now he's the best 1v1 keeper around and actually probably makes less mistakes these days than his competitors (Casillas, Neuer, De Gea...etc). Its just ridiculous that some people still don't rate him, their reason being... Barca has a good defence Shocked

Anyway, being placed at number 46 means quite a few players have to be considered better than him. So this thread is basically which players do you believe have been unfairly awarded a higher place than Valdes.

To help you out, here are the players rated so far:

50. Kompany
49. Xabi Alonso
48. Gotze
47. Barrios
46. Valdes
45. Fabregas
44. Raul
43. Gervinho
42. Hummels
41. Yaya Toure
40. Iker Casillas
39. Marcelo
38. Nasri

--------------

My opinion?

45. Fabregas... Very ordinary season by Fab. Outshone by both Wilshere and Nasri. No chance in hell he deserves to be above Victor.

44. Raul... Raul had a good season, did well for Schalke. Maybe he should be higher too, but I'm not sure whether he was better than the GK of the European champions.

40. Iker Casillas... Well here is the easiest comparison yet... WTf? Casillas is a great keeper but its quite simple, he wasn't better than Valdes this season. Great in some of the Classicos but Valdes did nothing wrong either. Sick of Iker riding his rep. I respect this guy a lot, he's definitely one of the best keepers I've seen, but this season Victor deserves the credit.

Didn't see enough of Hummels and Gervinho to judge, but I'm a bit sceptical here too.

Considering the style that barcelona uses (hugging the ball), I hardly think Valdez ever has been better than Casillas. He just dosent have twice as much shots to stop than barcelona.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:08 pm

@The xcx wrote:
@BarcaKizz wrote:Now I know we all don't really rate Goal.com as a credible website anymore. It gives out the goss and we consume it so I guess at the end of the day its partly our fault, but at the very least the crap they write does provide an incentive for discussion/a laugh.

This year, the Goal.com 50 has placed Victor Valdes at number 46. The same Victor Valdes that was probably only third to Neuer and VDS this season across Europe, and quite possibly the only reason he isn't higher than them is that at Barca, he just didn't get as many chances to show off his form as much as Neuer did. He was consistently flawless and the saviour many a time this season. If people can't recognise that making 1 or 2 gamebreaking 1v1 saves game after game is just as good, if not better, than saving shots flying in regularly, then I'm quite frankly puzzled. Has always been an extraordinarily talented keeper, and right now he's the best 1v1 keeper around and actually probably makes less mistakes these days than his competitors (Casillas, Neuer, De Gea...etc). Its just ridiculous that some people still don't rate him, their reason being... Barca has a good defence Shocked

Anyway, being placed at number 46 means quite a few players have to be considered better than him. So this thread is basically which players do you believe have been unfairly awarded a higher place than Valdes.

To help you out, here are the players rated so far:

50. Kompany
49. Xabi Alonso
48. Gotze
47. Barrios
46. Valdes
45. Fabregas
44. Raul
43. Gervinho
42. Hummels
41. Yaya Toure
40. Iker Casillas
39. Marcelo
38. Nasri

--------------

My opinion?

45. Fabregas... Very ordinary season by Fab. Outshone by both Wilshere and Nasri. No chance in hell he deserves to be above Victor.

44. Raul... Raul had a good season, did well for Schalke. Maybe he should be higher too, but I'm not sure whether he was better than the GK of the European champions.

40. Iker Casillas... Well here is the easiest comparison yet... WTf? Casillas is a great keeper but its quite simple, he wasn't better than Valdes this season. Great in some of the Classicos but Valdes did nothing wrong either. Sick of Iker riding his rep. I respect this guy a lot, he's definitely one of the best keepers I've seen, but this season Victor deserves the credit.

Didn't see enough of Hummels and Gervinho to judge, but I'm a bit sceptical here too.

Considering the style that barcelona uses (hugging the ball), I hardly think Valdez ever has been better than Casillas. He just dosent have twice as much shots to stop than barcelona.

Ah that old chestnut, i wonder why is it Valdes had more shots to save last year than Casillas and had a better shot to safe ratio than Casillas aswell.

But carry on.
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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:10 pm

I didn't post any thread about the Goal.com top 50 because I know very well how much most of you dislike the site and this countdown.

However the honest truth is I like both the site and the countdown. I thought their countdown of 2008-09 left something to be desired but their countdown of 2009-10 was really satisfying. This time it's hard to say how good the countdown is till it completes. So far there are one or two which I don't agree with but nothing all that bad.

I didn't expect Fabregas to be there but after reading the entire citation there is some merit in him being there. I was not sure if Yaya would be there but he is higher than I thought though I don't disagree with his position as such. As for Casillas, I think he may not have made the countdown but his heroics in the Copa Del Rey final turned the game and possible result around on it's head landing Real Madrid their only trophy of the season. In that sense he was perhaps a bigger hero of the final than C.Ronaldo who got the winning goal.

Now what about Valdes' position. I would first of all say it's really difficult to compare across positions and goalkeeper is the least glamorous position of all. Hence what we must see is how many goalkeepers are ranked ahead of Valdes and how many we think deserved to. Now I really doubt De Gea will make the countdown. Van Der Sar will probably be there and most of us agree he deserves to be ahead. Neuer will be on top among goalkeepers but then he was the best last season almost by common consensus. So that leaves Casillas. I didn't expect him to be higher than Valdes. However I am not going to vociferously protest against that. There are a couple of reasons for this. One is that while Valdes may have been more consistent throughout the season, Casillas had possibly a bigger season defining moment. The other is explained below. It's about where you stand in comparison to your team's other players in terms of importance to your team and your contribution to the team's success.

Think how many Real Madrid players will be there in the countdown and how many Barcelona players will be there. The number of our players is likely to be much higher. Let's first think who among our players are sure to be there. I am not sure about Villa and Pedro but they should be there. Abidal is a small doubt but even then he is likely to be there. Puyol may not be there but Pique will be there. That means a total of 10 Barcelona players will likely be there and Valdes has been placed last among them as is always the case with Barcelona.

Lastly the way this countdown has been made is by taking the votes of each Goal.com editor. Now this is similar to the Fifa Ballon D'or procedure whose results again we largely don't agree with. Hence it's no surprise that most of us won't agree with Goal.com's countdown. However what we must also understand is if we tried making the same countdown we wouldn't be able to convince many others about it's validity either. In short opinions about everything in football including of course players vary widely not just among fans but even among experts. In such a scenario how can you expect an entire countdown of top 50 players to come off as satisfactory to most never mind all individuals.



Last edited by messixaviesta on Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:18 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:13 pm

Valdes was put on so low so Goal.com can hide their Barca bias :coffee:

On a serious note, I try not to make too much of these rankings. It's worth remembering that there are thousands of players to chose from, so already being considered in the top 50 makes you top 1 or 2%. Does it really matter which one is slightly higher, given how subjective these rankings are?
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:47 pm

:lol!:
oh wow, typical goal.com putting Casillas ahead of Valdes, its sad really. Valdes has been better than Casillas for some time now.

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Post by bazinga Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:55 pm

Lionel Messi wrote::lol!:
oh wow, typical goal.com putting Casillas ahead of Valdes, its sad really. Valdes has been better than Casillas for some time now.

Shhh.

How dare you.
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:58 pm

Valdes has saved the team numerous times this season.

The game vs Villareal immediately comes to mind.







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Post by free_cat Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:46 pm

As JD said, it's very difficult to compare GK to other positions. In my opinion, all GK that are in front of Valdes except Neuer will be undeserved.

Casillas: He had a very good CdR final and a good second leg in the CL vs. Barça. But he wasn't quite bad against Barça 1st leg CL. Overall, his season has been worse than Valdes. Has made more mistakes than Valdes, has conceeded more, had a worse stop/shot ratio, etc.

VdS: I think he was past it all the year through. Had some good performances, but he also made some mistakes and was a bit slow. Although I didn't watch much of his games to be honest. However, his performance in the CL was utterly poor. Was terrible in 2 of the 3 goals. Doesn't deserve to be above Valdes at all, but he will probably be.

Neuer: I still don't think he had a better season than Valdes, having a terrible domestic season, but I can understand if he is placed higher as he was incredible with Shalke run.

Any other GK above valdes would be undeserved too.
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Post by FennecFox7 Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:02 pm

shot stop ratio is bull, because it all depends whos shooting the ball, how much pressure is on the striker, etc. Just pointing this out. i mean a baby shot from di maria compared to a monster from ronaldo, etc.

With that being said, valdes has impressed me this season, even as a madrid fan. But there were many times casillas saved our asses from embarrassment. It's a close call, and either one over the other wouldn't matter to me, because both had equally good seasons.

Neuer did not have a bad domestic season free_cat, the defense in front of him was one of the worst I have seen CL semi finalists have.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:57 am

Shot to save ratio might be bull, but do we have a better way of objectively comparing keepers?
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Post by Swanhends Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:39 am

De Gea made twice as many saves (154) as Valdes (76) and nearly twice as many as Casillas (81)
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Post by FennecFox7 Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:42 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Shot to save ratio might be bull, but do we have a better way of objectively comparing keepers?
highlights vs a team, how hard the save was, etc
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Post by BarcaKizz Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:56 am

Fair enough I understand some of these points. However, for me Valdes was one of our very best players this season. I found him one of my favourite players to watch this season.

1. Messi
2. Alves
3. Iniesta
4. Possibly Valdes...
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Post by FennecFox7 Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:07 am

as i said before though I saw him make some beast saves that I definetly did not expect from him
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Post by BarcaKizz Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:33 am

Giggity5313 wrote:as i said before though I saw him make some beast saves that I definetly did not expect from him

Here's the problem... Valdes has been making those saves since his first year. Its just early on he made the odd mistake as well, so he was often considered unsafe. For the last 4 years though he's completely eradicated that. In reality, he's always been a perfect fit for Barca.
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Post by The Madrid One Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:43 am

casillas was more important to madrid than valdes was to barca.

thats why they put them in that order.
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Post by Pedram Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:56 am

Valdes is just a good goal keeper but Casillas saves are sometimes magical.
like this:

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:48 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Valdes was put on so low so Goal.com can hide their Barca bias :coffee:

On a serious note, I try not to make too much of these rankings. It's worth remembering that there are thousands of players to chose from, so already being considered in the top 50 makes you top 1 or 2%. Does it really matter which one is slightly higher, given how subjective these rankings are?

Very true alfred. If I remember correctly this is the first time Valdes has made the Goal.com top 50. This means recognition for him has increased this season. Also one moment went against Valdes - the crucial blunder against Arsenal that cost us the first leg and made things difficult. The citation for Valdes mentions that specifically.

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:52 am

@free_cat wrote:As JD said, it's very difficult to compare GK to other positions. In my opinion, all GK that are in front of Valdes except Neuer will be undeserved.

Casillas: He had a very good CdR final and a good second leg in the CL vs. Barça. But he wasn't quite bad against Barça 1st leg CL. Overall, his season has been worse than Valdes. Has made more mistakes than Valdes, has conceeded more, had a worse stop/shot ratio, etc.

VdS: I think he was past it all the year through. Had some good performances, but he also made some mistakes and was a bit slow. Although I didn't watch much of his games to be honest. However, his performance in the CL was utterly poor. Was terrible in 2 of the 3 goals. Doesn't deserve to be above Valdes at all, but he will probably be.

Neuer: I still don't think he had a better season than Valdes, having a terrible domestic season, but I can understand if he is placed higher as he was incredible with Shalke run.

Any other GK above valdes would be undeserved too.

I understand cat. About Casillas we have already discussed and all things considered it's a little debatable. Maybe Valdes should have been higher. As for VDS, he may not make the countdown for all we know and if he does people will accept it as the last shine of a legend. About Neuer I agree - he will be top among goalkeepers this season. No matter what happened domestically he became the cynosure of all eyes this season and then there is Schalke going to UCL semi final and that performance in the first leg against ManUtd. He was Schalke's most important player.


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Post by messixaviesta Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:55 am

@BarcaKizz wrote:Fair enough I understand some of these points. However, for me Valdes was one of our very best players this season. I found him one of my favourite players to watch this season.

1. Messi
2. Alves
3. Iniesta
4. Possibly Valdes...

Well if I were to make early predictions the top three Barcelona players in order will be Messi, Xavi and Iniesta. Then the other near sure shots are D.Alves, Busquets and Pique. Now the three who I am not sure about are Abidal, Villa and Pedro. Valdes may have been more consistent than some of them but they are either considered more key to the team's game or have had more decisive moments in the biggest of matches - in some cases both.


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Post by free_cat Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:33 am

bhends wrote:De Gea made twice as many saves (154) as Valdes (76) and nearly twice as many as Casillas (81)

Yet he made numerous mistakes coming out of goal, his weak point.

Don't get me wrong, I love De Gea, but he is clearly not a finished product and worse than Valdes, and had a worse season too.
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Post by shamr9pato Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:37 am

this thread should be how many players are going to be undeservedly awarded a higher rank than the great ABATE.......
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