Pep Guardiola vs Jose Mourinho - Bayern vs Chelsea

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/6612491.stm

Chelsea match, not sure bout the Madrid match.

Blue Barrett wrote:

The Franchise wrote:All Sports said is, why do people think he is a tactical genuis....which is a very fair question.

Sports didnt say he is a bad coach nor anyone can do it.

He may not be the greatest tactical mind of all time but he's no slouch either. You lot make it seem like he's clueless when it comes to tactics. You think he'd have achieved this much in his career by being a poor or average tactician?

You may not bring something "innovative" to the pitch but as far as your tactics work and you've won time and time again with those tactics, you're no push over in that department.

So much exaggeration on this forum.

Attacking tactics, I dont think he is clueless...but he is pretty underwhelming. He is a reactive coach, I think thats fair to say is it not?

If you have a weakness in your back line for example, he will spot it and make the correct adjustments to take advantage. An example of that might be how he instructed his Madrid side to pump long balls over the top of Alves (to pretty mixed results but none the less a fair enough tactic)

But I think, what he did in Madrid shows everything about him when he is asked to be pro-active and give the team something to build on. When his team has to be in the driving seat of the game, they dont look good...even at Inter it was like that..thats because he doesnt seem to have any real attacking philosophy...all his teams, the attack comes from how they defend.

Where is the overreaction in this? Nobody ever once said he is a moron and dont know what he is doing...he is simply limited in certain areas.

The Franchise wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:

The Franchise wrote:All Sports said is, why do people think he is a tactical genuis....which is a very fair question.

Sports didnt say he is a bad coach nor anyone can do it.

He may not be the greatest tactical mind of all time but he's no slouch either. You lot make it seem like he's clueless when it comes to tactics. You think he'd have achieved this much in his career by being a poor or average tactician?

You may not bring something "innovative" to the pitch but as far as your tactics work and you've won time and time again with those tactics, you're no push over in that department.

So much exaggeration on this forum.

Attacking tactics, I dont think he is clueless...but he is pretty underwhelming. He is a reactive coach, I think thats fair to say is it not?

Fair point.

If you have a weakness in your back line for example, he will spot it and make the correct adjustments to take advantage. An example of that might be how he instructed his Madrid side to pump long balls over the top of Alves (to pretty mixed results but none the less a fair enough tactic)

But I think, what he did in Madrid shows everything about him when he is asked to be pro-active and give the team something to build on. When his team has to be in the driving seat of the game, they dont look good...even at Inter it was like that..thats because he doesnt seem to have any real attacking philosophy...all his teams, the attack comes from how they defend.

But then someone like Pep doesn't have any real defensive philosophy, isn't that also fair to point out? You could say his defense comes from his attack(keeping the ball), couldn't you? I get your point but there are great managers who have lacked in one or two areas in their ideas. What makes you great is being able to adjust - like Fergie who adjusted to the Chelseas, Arsenals and Man Citys of the league. Its also fair to say Mou did adjust while in Madrid, didn't he? 2nd season winning the league? The 3rd season imo had a lot more to do with other things than his tactics, including certain players just having poor seasons(not to mention ego problems).[/quote]In a nutshell, all I'm seeing is Madrid fans and mostly La Liga fans complaining because of his last season with Madrid. There wasn't this much complaining this time last summer. Why? Because he had just won the league. At the end of the day, winning what changes the discussion.[/quote]

But thats not true.

Pep does have a defensive philosphy...all 3 of his teams have pressed and pressed heavily.

And your talking about results in the Madrid paragraph, when we are supposed to be talking tactics. His tactics were bad, especially offensively. I dont understand why pro Mou debaters never seem to understand the separation there.

Quick question: Were his attacking tactics bad in 2011/12?

If your asking my opinion, then yes.

They lost at home, 3-1 to Barcelona and it was the same old Mourinho Classico tactical failure.

They won the 2nd game 2-1 or 1-0 I dont remember, stopping a Barca comeback, but really we were very far behind. At this point Mourinho had figured out a better way to defend Barca..and yet again, his attacking "tactics" were entirely dependant on defending first.

No point talking about other big games, because they didnt really play any...untill they faced Bayern in the CL and lost, games in which again his attacking tactics came under fire (his defensive tactics too you could argue).

In La Liga, in every season they will of course steamroll most of the teams on offensive talent alone...but even then, the same tactics which consist on, defend, counter, rely on individuals...which came unstuck time and time again during his reign against similar talent teams.

I don't think it matters if we won La Liga in 11-12 season or scored 101 goals. We still played one dimensional football.

Seems you lot are completely convinced. There's no point going any further.

Well, if you dont mind I would like to ask you a final question.

What good are any offensive (actually defensive too) tactics or philosophy if they dont work in the big games?

And I think we can agree, in the big games they really didnt work.

Wait...are you saying now that his tactics failed him only in big games or you're just asking specifically about big games?

The Chelsea bias is ridiculous
can't wait till Roman get his period again and boots Mou out.

Considering Mourinho's a defensive coach, in the big games we weren't defensively the best either. If we were, then we probably would have made it to at least one CL final.

Blue Barrett wrote:Wait...are you saying now that his tactics failed him only in big games or you're just asking specifically about big games?

No, not only. You could see in smaller games for Madrid and even Inter, they looked really bad but won on individual talent...but in the end, at least they won.

But I was just asking specifically about big games, because really thats where tactics are judged the highest..they can make all the difference and often do. Individual talent alone wont do you no good if the other team is just as talented.

Donuts wrote:The Chelsea bias is ridiculous
can't wait till Roman get his period again and boots Mou out.

I defended Jose even when he was at Inter and Madrid. He's not perfect but he's nowhere near as bad as a lot of you make him look.

Roman isn't going to "boot him out." The relationship between both of them is totally different from what it was in 2004 or 2007. Don't believe me? Just sit back and watch.

The Franchise wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:Wait...are you saying now that his tactics failed him only in big games or you're just asking specifically about big games?

No, not only. You could see in smaller games for Madrid and even Inter, they looked really bad but won on individual talent...but in the end, at least they won.

But I was just asking specifically about big games, because really thats where tactics are judged the highest..they can make all the difference and often do. Individual talent alone wont do you no good if the other team is just as talented.

You have to understand that I'm not saying he's a super tactician. He's gotten it wrong over the past couple of years in some big games but so have other managers like Fergie (2009 CL final, 2011 CL final, 2012 entire CL campaign, 2012 PL title run, 2012 CL, etc).

The fact is, he has struggled against Barca in the recent past but so has almost everyone else who's faced them. I'm not going to give him stick for the semi-final against Bayern because the truth is, Bayern were just clearly the better team all things considered and I don't think anyone can deny that the better team won.

Despite his short comings, his tactics has worked during this period too(Inter-Barca, Madrid-Barca 2-1 in La Liga 2012). Everyone knows he's a defensive coach before anything else but its no surprise that his Madrid defense was a far cry from his Chelsea & Inter defenses. I mean, the did have a Ramos-Pepe pairing. That should say a lot, shouldn't it? Not to mention he had Ozil & Di Maria who are shite at defending/tracking back and also Ronaldo who doesn't defend nearly as much as he should for an athlete of his caliber. There were a lot of things that mad his time at Madrid difficult.

I don't see how you can really blame a manager for his players' shortcomings relative to his natural tactics.

P.S. My attention is split atm so I apologize if my posts aren't well organised.

I know you are not saying he is a super tactician, I think you also can see I am not saying he is a poor one. So I think we can just have a normal discussion without either side taking a radical point of view.

Yes, many struggled with Barcelona in that time. No question. But during that time, so many people were saying Mou is getting his tactics wrong in those games...heck, I was saying he was getting wrong.

I agree, Bayern were the better team. But Madrid were in that game, it was pretty even at least on the score line and I think a few things one way or the other swings it. Over both games, Madrid got and probably deserved a fair share of criticism for not controlling the games..and most of that to me, was down to Mourinho's overall philosophy.

I completely disagree with your comments about Di Maria, he is a fantastic defensive player. Ozil and Cristiano your right and the centerbacks were a joke compared to what he had at Inter and Chelsea...but shouldnt we then further criticise Mourinho for insisting on a reactive, counter attacking plan when he doesnt have the defensive personale in the first place?

I understand him, a real offensive plan wouldnt of worked against Barcelona..not unless he pressed high and stopped the long high balls...but he didnt figure that out for like 2.5 years...but the problem is, his obsession to topple (or merely compete) Barca came at a cost because that same style it took to compete and occasionally beat Barca naturally became Madrid's overall style and when they didnt face teams like Barca and they had to be the proactive team in the game...they struggled and looked bad.

At least thats my opinion.

Uncanny wrote:Lol good thing we didn't get destroyed like last year when athletico have us a whooping,I d on't think we even took that game seriously, but this was a pretty good battle against bayern.

"I don't think we even took that game seriously"

Can anyone tell me why so many premfaces use this excuse?

I just don't get it. And they even say it like there proud of it.

I guess using that logic you can come to the conclusion that Chelsea players don't give two sh*** about there fans who pay to watch the team and who cheer for them on this site, the owner who pays them there huge salaries etc etc

I am so tired of EPL fans saying there team didn't try every time they lose to a team from a different league they think they should beat just because they play in the EPL.

It's the single dumbest excuse I have ever heard of especially in a game with a trophy on the line where you are representing all the teams from the Champions League.

boyzis wrote:

Uncanny wrote:I think there's a lot of babbling here, and I want to point a few things out.  Bayern were the dominant side from start to finish, agree.  I also agree that they are the worlds best right now.  Chelsea were clearly underdogs and we knew that, we can't possibly go all attack on bayern it would've been probably worse can how they did barca.  Our qualities lie in our defense, and we did a damn good job at it, especially with 10 men against bayern (plus neur kept popping up high up field to help his team out, props to him).  But at the end we almost won until the last 6 seconds of a 120 min match, that's nothing to take lightly.  Bayern won on penalties but the whole match was a draw for me, Cech was incredible, and bayern will be the team to beat this CL.

You do understand mou was beaten tactically by pep ?

This was a bit of a joke.

Grooverider wrote:

sportsczy wrote:There's nothing sophisticated about Mou's tactics:  Sit back and defend... when you get the ball, counter as quickly as possible.  I don't understand how people can think he's some tactical genius.  He's not.

He just uses the same anti-football tactic he's always used.

this^^

and when it does not work, he always displays an epic amount of butt hurt

The Franchise wrote:All Sports said is, why do people think he is a tactical genuis....which is a very fair question.

Sports didnt say he is a bad coach nor anyone can do it.

The Franchise wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:

The Franchise wrote:All Sports said is, why do people think he is a tactical genuis....which is a very fair question.

Sports didnt say he is a bad coach nor anyone can do it.

He may not be the greatest tactical mind of all time but he's no slouch either. You lot make it seem like he's clueless when it comes to tactics. You think he'd have achieved this much in his career by being a poor or average tactician?

You may not bring something "innovative" to the pitch but as far as your tactics work and you've won time and time again with those tactics, you're no push over in that department.

So much exaggeration on this forum.

Attacking tactics, I dont think he is clueless...but he is pretty underwhelming. He is a reactive coach, I think thats fair to say is it not?

If you have a weakness in your back line for example, he will spot it and make the correct adjustments to take advantage. An example of that might be how he instructed his Madrid side to pump long balls over the top of Alves (to pretty mixed results but none the less a fair enough tactic)

But I think, what he did in Madrid shows everything about him when he is asked to be pro-active and give the team something to build on. When his team has to be in the driving seat of the game, they dont look good...even at Inter it was like that..thats because he doesnt seem to have any real attacking philosophy...all his teams, the attack comes from how they defend.

Where is the overreaction in this? Nobody ever once said he is a moron and dont know what he is doing...he is simply limited in certain areas.

I think Mou is not average in tactics obviously, to say hes not good tactically, im not sure, hes had so much success and u cant just to do with the other things but not tactics. I agree with the arguments though, he sprobably not innovative and has his limits. I hate him but he deserves credit, for the way he is able to make his teams play to their absolute best usually, improve the players, just something most other managers cant do.

About the attacknig football. What was his Porto like? I didnt watch them, were they a counter attacking team as well? My impression was they were possession attack building side?

Blue Barrett wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:Wait...are you saying now that his tactics failed him only in big games or you're just asking specifically about big games?

No, not only. You could see in smaller games for Madrid and even Inter, they looked really bad but won on individual talent...but in the end, at least they won.

But I was just asking specifically about big games, because really thats where tactics are judged the highest..they can make all the difference and often do. Individual talent alone wont do you no good if the other team is just as talented.

You have to understand that I'm not saying he's a super tactician. He's gotten it wrong over the past couple of years in some big games but so have other managers like Fergie (2009 CL final, 2011 CL final, 2012 entire CL campaign, 2012 PL title run, 2012 CL, etc).

The fact is, he has struggled against Barca in the recent past but so has almost everyone else who's faced them. I'm not going to give him stick for the semi-final against Bayern because the truth is, Bayern were just clearly the better team all things considered and I don't think anyone can deny that the better team won.

Despite his short comings, his tactics has worked during this period too(Inter-Barca, Madrid-Barca 2-1 in La Liga 2012). Everyone knows he's a defensive coach before anything else but its no surprise that his Madrid defense was a far cry from his Chelsea & Inter defenses. I mean, the did have a Ramos-Pepe pairing. That should say a lot, shouldn't it? Not to mention he had Ozil & Di Maria who are shite at defending/tracking back and also Ronaldo who doesn't defend nearly as much as he should for an athlete of his caliber. There were a lot of things that mad his time at Madrid difficult.

I don't see how you can really blame a manager for his players' shortcomings relative to his natural tactics.

LOL, he had the biggest transfer war chest of any other coach in Europe and the attraction of almost every player wanting to play at Madrid.

To act like Mou was saddled with certain players is just such a lame excuse.

He chose those players and outside of Ronaldo (who pulled his lame tactics out of the fire so many different times) he could have replaced any of those players you mentioned.

In fact he did replace Pepe with Varane so I really have no clue where this excuse is coming from.

And then this,

"I don't see how you can really blame a manager for his players' shortcomings relative to his natural tactics."

You blame the manager when he has 100% control of who the team buys and the starting lineup on game days.

And maybe you use those players at what there good at instead of forcing a system on them which you just said doesn't fit the way they play.

We all have seen this year with Juan Mata if Mou doesn't think a player fits his system he doesn't play them. Don't act like at Madrid it was any different because truth be told he had more authority at Madrid to make changes then he does at Chelsea.

Blue Barrett wrote:Not to mention he had Ozil & Di Maria who are shite at defending/tracking back and also Ronaldo who doesn't defend nearly as much as he should for an athlete of his caliber. There were a lot of things that mad his time at Madrid difficult.

Doesn't this negate the claims that Mou is a master of man management? Franck Ribéry and Arjen Robben formerly were also known to be pretty lazy in tracking back and defending, but obviously Jupp Heynckes managed to instill the necessity of that into them nonetheless - and Robben is known to be quite a primadonna, too. Why then couldn't José Mourinho adequately convince Cristiano Ronaldo?

And if Angel di Maria and Mesut Özil are "shite at defending/tracking back" - why doesn't he teach them how to do it? Im Germany the official title of an UEFA Pro coach is "Fußballlehrer", that is, "football teacher", and the expection of a football teacher is just that: teach your players how to play football properly.

Blue Barrett wrote:
I don't see how you can really blame a manager for his players' shortcomings relative to his natural tactics.

You are bringing up how Mourinho is so successful and you give him full credit for his success but when he does wrong and loses you blame it on his team? and Mou has nothing at fault?

you cannot have it both ways.

blue everything Dani has said is true tbh. I don't know why you are taking it so personally. Madrid did well when teams opened up. When teams sat back last season he didn't knw how to coach breaking them down. Same issue he has had all his career.

The Franchise wrote:I know you are not saying he is a super tactician, I think you also can see I am not saying he is a poor one. So I think we can just have a normal discussion without either side taking a radical point of view.

Yes, many struggled with Barcelona in that time. No question. But during that time, so many people were saying Mou is getting his tactics wrong in those games...heck, I was saying he was getting wrong.

I agree, Bayern were the better team. But Madrid were in that game, it was pretty even at least on the score line and I think a few things one way or the other swings it. Over both games, Madrid got and probably deserved a fair share of criticism for not controlling the games..and most of that to me, was down to Mourinho's overall philosophy.

I completely disagree with your comments about Di Maria, he is a fantastic defensive player. Ozil and Cristiano your right and the centerbacks were a joke compared to what he had at Inter and Chelsea...but shouldnt we then further criticise Mourinho for insisting on a reactive, counter attacking plan when he doesnt have the defensive personale in the first place?

I understand him, a real offensive plan wouldnt of worked against Barcelona..not unless he pressed high and stopped the long high balls...but he didnt figure that out for like 2.5 years...but the problem is, his obsession to topple (or merely compete) Barca came at a cost because that same style it took to compete and occasionally beat Barca naturally became Madrid's overall style and when they didnt face teams like Barca and they had to be the proactive team in the game...they struggled and looked bad.

At least thats my opinion.

I think this post properly conveys your thoughts(more than the previous ones) and tbh, when you put it like this, I can't disagree with you. The only thing I still don't agree on is Di Maria being an "fantastic defensive player" but that's another topic entirely.

Donuts wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:
I don't see how you can really blame a manager for his players' shortcomings relative to his natural tactics.

You are bringing up how Mourinho is so successful and you give him full credit for his success but when he does wrong and loses you blame it on his team? and Mou has nothing at fault?

you cannot have it both ways.

You misunderstood one part of a whole post and spun it and an entirely wrong direction

I never gave him "full credit" as you claim and if you read my post properly, you'll see that I acknowledged his own shortcomings.

rwo power wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:Not to mention he had Ozil & Di Maria who are shite at defending/tracking back and also Ronaldo who doesn't defend nearly as much as he should for an athlete of his caliber. There were a lot of things that mad his time at Madrid difficult.

Doesn't this negate the claims that Mou is a master of man management? Franck Ribéry and Arjen Robben formerly were also known to be pretty lazy in tracking back and defending, but obviously Jupp Heynckes managed to instill the necessity of that into them nonetheless - and Robben is known to be quite a primadonna, too.

Robben played under Mourinho at Chelseea. We never had these problems.

Why then couldn't José Mourinho adequately convince Cristiano Ronaldo?

Fergie couldn't convince Ronaldo to defend either. No one can convince Ronaldo, tbh.

And if Angel di Maria and Mesut Özil are "shite at defending/tracking back" - why doesn't he teach them how to do it? Im Germany the official title of an UEFA Pro coach is "Fußballlehrer", that is, "football teacher", and the expection of a football teacher is just that: teach your players how to play football properly.

For a man that loves defending, you don't think he tried to teach them? If a player doesn't have it in him, sometimes he just doesn't have it. What, are we going to ask him to teach Mata how to defend next?