The biggest lesson I learnt from the Bayern vs Juventus games

Excellent post Arq

Also i'd just like to say that when we initially bought Montolivo, we bought him as a Regista

He evolved his game now and has become more of a B2B now imo

Not saying the Regista is useless or anything, but I think that Registas need to add more to their game besides playmaking and tracking back in the middle of the park

And the Juve game shouldn't be used as indicator to whethere Registas are uselss or not

El Shaarawy wrote:Excellent post Arq

Also i'd just like to say that when we initially bought Montolivo, we bought him as a Regista

He evolved his game now and has become more of a B2B now imo

Not saying the Regista is useless or anything, but I think that Registas need to add more to their game besides playmaking and tracking back in the middle of the park

And the Juve game shouldn't be used as indicator to whethere Registas are uselss or not

Mole earlier described him as what Cabaye has evolved into for Newcastle which is an apt comparison. Only Prandelli seemed to know how to use Montolivo which is why Monty is boss for Italia and dominated midfields like Rafa's Liverpool, Puel's Lyon and Van Gaal's Bayern all so impressively. Complaint of Montolivo's fans were that Bamby was being used to limited given all his other facets that his critics refused to point out. Allegri works very closely with Prandelli and discovered that if freedom and confidence is given to Monty, he will relinquish Bamby Montolivo and become the COMPLETE warrior he is for Italia and for Milan. Former football observers who waved off Monty's talents are now just discovering this as the Fiorentina game was icing on the cake to how f**king good this man has been this season. Dosto would attest to that more than me.

He always had it in him, that Bamby.

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

There is no such thing is impenetrable.

Juve could of easily got through with different, not even better, just different, forwards.

The way Bayern defend, it's difficult to have a clear cut chance against them. Which forward that Juventus could possibly sign would have improved them against Bayern? They're signing Llorente, however I think a highline would have handled him. Maybe Jovetic.

But yeh, I don't think there are many forwards out there. In terms of chance creation, I think it has to be a team effort, not just an individual thing.

Compared to Juve, Bayern had more of an attacking threat. They had 4 versatile attacking players, whereas Juve had 2. It may simply be a formation/tactical thing.

Why would a highline handle Llorente? He doesnt play on the shoulder of the attack? He would of dropped deep and kept a hold of the ball, like he always does.

He would have, but he wouldn't really be going anywhere under Bayern's pressing. A highline would handle him since he isn't the quickest.

Did you actually read what I wrot,e like really read it?

If Juve played the same balls to him they played to Quad, he wouldnt of turned it over (probably) like Quad did and would of brought other players into the game and got the entire Juve team up the pitch.

Him being slow, highline and pressing are totally irrelevant to anything I said.

Man, I really love a good long Arq post nearly every time, this time is no different

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Why would a highline handle Llorente? He doesnt play on the shoulder of the attack? He would of dropped deep and kept a hold of the ball, like he always does.

He would have, but he wouldn't really be going anywhere under Bayern's pressing. A highline would handle him since he isn't the quickest.

Did you actually read what I wrot,e like really read it?

If Juve played the same balls to him they played to Quad, he wouldnt of turned it over (probably) like Quad did and would of brought other players into the game and got the entire Juve team up the pitch.

Him being slow, highline and pressing are totally irrelevant to anything I said.

If Llorente holds the ball up, then Bayern's pressing, along with their organised defending will mean he'll be stopped. Bayern aren't some ordinary side when defending that'll easily be bypassed. I don't think Llorente would make a significant difference.

I just don't think it's down to one player, it has to be a team thing too.

I don't know much about Vucinic, but isn't he a better dribbler than Llorente?

Whats pressing going to do if they already beat the press by going direct? You know what pressing is right`

Organised defending? You cant just say random words, please make some sense.

What organised defending will they do when its Llorente and one striker vs 2 defenders?

It doesnt matter about whos a better dribbler, its about keeping the ball for long enough to get support.

MT must I always educate you my friend?

By organised defending I mean Bayern's intelligent and good positional defending. If Llorente does manage to hold the ball up, Bayern will get into their positions and starting defending like they usually do. Juve couldn't do much when Bayern were organised defensively.

I think this is something that should be a team thing, not just 1 striker. It'd be easier for Juve to create chances if they had versatile wingers like Ribery/Robben who could trouble Bayern's defense. However that's just an idea; I'm not saying they should completely change their system.

What positionally defending? If there is 2 v 2 what position can you possibly take up to stop danger? None. Doesnt matter how good you are, 2 v 2 is dangerous and you cant risk trying to win the ball and losing position. Bayern didnt, they only won high aerial balls, but everything played to Quaq's feet, he won..he simple played a bad pass or made a wrong choice after that.

Bayern get defenders back? It doesnt matter, Juve would have numbers to actually build attacks finally. When Vucinic came on, they did just that and they created a couple chances too...so if they did that for the full 90, obviously they would be in a position to possibly make some better chances.

Juve never got chances to go at their "organised defence", they were stopped much earlier.

Your winger thing dont make sense. If they played wingers, that means one less centerback...which means less build up at the back...

They changed to 442 if you didnt notice, didnt make much difference at all.

If it's 2v2 there's still some way to go until they reach the goal. By that time it's possible for other players to catch up.

Vucinic played in the 2nd leg and Juventus didn't trouble Bayern too much.

Juve at times were in Bayern's half, however Bayern were well organised defensively.

By wingers I mean if they had a different system, for example a 4-2-3-1 similar to Bayern's. They'd be more versatile when attacking. However I'm not suggesting they should completely change system.

It doesnt matter if they catch up, they shouldnt be trying to arrive at the goal before they get back. The reason they struggled is they never got to have any extended possession...so good Bayern got back behind the ball, it gives their defence the break as they finally get Juve played up in support.

The 2nd leg? The game was already gone..mentally Juve were defeated already...why do I have to explain that?

Yeah, I know you mean change system..why would they do that?

They changed to it and it did nothing, 442, more or less the same..had no impact because that wasnt the problem.

If Juve don't attack quickly and decide to keep extended possession, then I'm sure Bayern are happy to defend, since Juve weren't really creating chances.

2nd leg they were probably mentally defeated, however they still gave it a go.

Juve changed to a makeshift system when losing, which isn't enough. Marchisio was at LW I think and Chiellini was at LCB/LB etc etc.

Dani don't bother... lol

Arquitecto wrote:Somewhere along the line this year when Conte felt his team was not dominating and winning games like last year, he decided to deploy a classic Swiss verrou formation which involves Bonnuci even deeper and right behind the Buffon, the natural wingbacks to strip their attacking sense and bring it to a flat 5-3-2 in other words, a typical Verrou.

I have never in my life heard the verrou described as flat 532

Verrou was 1333, the forerunner to the modern 433 in many ways - It was a direct evolution from the 235

Yohan Modric wrote:If Juve don't attack quickly and decide to keep extended possession, then I'm sure Bayern are happy to defend, since Juve weren't really creating chances.

2nd leg they were probably mentally defeated, however they still gave it a go.

Juve changed to a makeshift system when losing, which isn't enough. Marchisio was at LW I think and Chiellini was at LCB/LB etc etc.

Ahhh ffs.

Of course they werent creating chances, they didnt have any numbers up field.......thats the whole point.

The Ostracised One wrote:Dani don't bother... lol

Ok, last post.

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:If Juve don't attack quickly and decide to keep extended possession, then I'm sure Bayern are happy to defend, since Juve weren't really creating chances.

2nd leg they were probably mentally defeated, however they still gave it a go.

Juve changed to a makeshift system when losing, which isn't enough. Marchisio was at LW I think and Chiellini was at LCB/LB etc etc.

Ahhh ffs.

Of course they werent creating chances, they didnt have any numbers up field.......thats the whole point.

I mean when Juve were in Bayern's half. It doesn't matter if they have numbers up the field, Bayern were organised defensively and Juve found it difficult to get through.

Which is why I was suggesting they attack quickly if they had Llorente, instead of playing possession and allowing Bayern to get their shape again.

Llorente... quickly?

Sushi Master wrote:Llorente... quickly?

He'd hold the ball up and look for quick pass forward.

Nope, when when finally got numbers they did break through. Vidal hit the post the very first time they did it..shame it was like an hour into the game.

I'd rather an Higuain type who's actually fast and a decent finisher. With all that space and an advanced defensive line, it's just easier to exploit all the space.