The biggest lesson I learnt from the Bayern vs Juventus games

The Franchise wrote:True, however there is always a counter to everything.

Bayern took him away and then pressed high, leaving 2 v 2 at the back...Juve have to take advantage of 2 v 2, its shocking how badly they did in terms of punishing Bayern at that.

There is no definitive in football, Regista is not dead so to speak, the tactics of nullifying Pirlo and his kind is not new, but whenever you focus on anything you have to give up something else. Bayern gave up numerical superority at the back, something you almost never do...but Juve didnt have the players to punish them.

I have said many many times, I dont like static deep lying players IF they dont have defensive skills because they force a certain amount of rigidness and you run the risk of them serving no real function.

So while I agree more or less with the thread, it must be said this is not new and there is a counter to everything in football...Juve didnt take advantage of that counter, mostly because they dont have the players to be fair.

VivaStPauli wrote:Bayerns midfield just was superior, doesn't mean the role/position is dead.

The Franchise wrote:True, however there is always a counter to everything.

Bayern took him away and then pressed high, leaving 2 v 2 at the back...Juve have to take advantage of 2 v 2, its shocking how badly they did in terms of punishing Bayern at that.

There is no definitive in football, Regista is not dead so to speak, the tactics of nullifying Pirlo and his kind is not new, but whenever you focus on anything you have to give up something else. Bayern gave up numerical superority at the back, something you almost never do...but Juve didnt have the players to punish them.

I have said many many times, I dont like static deep lying players IF they dont have defensive skills because they force a certain amount of rigidness and you run the risk of them serving no real function.

So while I agree more or less with the thread, it must be said this is not new and there is a counter to everything in football...Juve didnt take advantage of that counter, mostly because they dont have the players to be fair.

sportsczy wrote:Italy NT play in the Euro would be the counter argument.

Nothing is obsolete in footy. Everything depends on teammates and form. When you don't have players like Balo, Cassano and SES on the front line, CBs can push up and allow your mids to press earlier and more.

The lack of a threat with the forwards screwed up Juve against Bayern.

VivaStPauli wrote:Bayerns midfield just was superior, doesn't mean the role/position is dead.

tuddor wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Bayerns midfield just was superior, doesn't mean the role/position is dead.

true, Vidal was our only warrior against an entire Bayern army, and LOL he was so close to join Bayern ... The technically level of Bayern's midfield was shocking good!

Yohan Modric wrote:It may not matter if Juve have better forwards as well. Bayern's defending is solid and impenetrable. They'd need to improve their chance creation, final third play and maybe change the system a bit too.

The Ostracised One wrote:

Dani I meant having the regista as your sole creative force. Pirlo is too easy to shut down at the top level. Milan did it multiple times last season, a lot of Serie A teams did it, he is always ineffactive against Napoli, Suffered against Chelsea and Bayern made him look completely ineffective.

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:It may not matter if Juve have better forwards as well. Bayern's defending is solid and impenetrable. They'd need to improve their chance creation, final third play and maybe change the system a bit too.

There is no such thing is impenetrable.

Juve could of easily got through with different, not even better, just different, forwards.

The Ostracised One wrote:
O like Spain vs Italy... where they made Pirlo play square passes and he had zero influence on the game. England let him dictate and that is when everyone started purring about him. Force him to play quick passes and he is useless. At Milanunder Ancelotti, they had so many playmakers and players that ran meaning the opposition rarely tried to shackle him. Rui Costa, Seerdorf, Kaka etc Were Cassano and Balo not playing in that final?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Would Bayern had been able to pull it off if Marchisio had more vision, though? Say you sacrifice some of the defensive stability he brings to the pitch and play someone like Gago alongside him, suddenly Bayern's task has become much harder.

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:It may not matter if Juve have better forwards as well. Bayern's defending is solid and impenetrable. They'd need to improve their chance creation, final third play and maybe change the system a bit too.

There is no such thing is impenetrable.

Juve could of easily got through with different, not even better, just different, forwards.

The way Bayern defend, it's difficult to have a clear cut chance against them. Which forward that Juventus could possibly sign would have improved them against Bayern? They're signing Llorente, however I think a highline would have handled him. Maybe Jovetic.

But yeh, I don't think there are many forwards out there. In terms of chance creation, I think it has to be a team effort, not just an individual thing.

Compared to Juve, Bayern had more of an attacking threat. They had 4 versatile attacking players, whereas Juve had 2. It may simply be a formation/tactical thing.

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

There is no such thing is impenetrable.

Juve could of easily got through with different, not even better, just different, forwards.

The way Bayern defend, it's difficult to have a clear cut chance against them. Which forward that Juventus could possibly sign would have improved them against Bayern? They're signing Llorente, however I think a highline would have handled him. Maybe Jovetic.

But yeh, I don't think there are many forwards out there. In terms of chance creation, I think it has to be a team effort, not just an individual thing.

Compared to Juve, Bayern had more of an attacking threat. They had 4 versatile attacking players, whereas Juve had 2. It may simply be a formation/tactical thing.

Why would a highline handle Llorente? He doesnt play on the shoulder of the attack? He would of dropped deep and kept a hold of the ball, like he always does.

Arquitecto wrote:Aside from Jibs, Dani, Sports and 1-2 some of the other posts in this thread are a shocking example of some simplistic inductive reasoning. Why?

-Conte's Juventus failed v Osram's Bayern for very simple reasons. There has been a system spawned by Conte to which has been the stimulating formula to his winning Juventus side, it composes of his 3 man backline with Bonnuci acting as the modern Sweeper (Think Hummels for Dortmund but pivoting central and back); with the wingbacks counter-pressing opposition fullbacks or wingers, along with providing crosses into the box; and a MVP midfield which optimizes on Pirlo's abilities, through Vidal and Marchisio's dual switch role in which both of them based on Pirlo's positioning take switches in a free attacking role and coming back to defend.

So essentially is more a 3-1-4-2 rather than a staple 3-5-2.

Somewhere along the line this year when Conte felt his team was not dominating and winning games like last year, he decided to deploy a classic Swiss verrou formation which involves Bonnuci even deeper and right behind the Buffon, the natural wingbacks to strip their attacking sense and bring it to a flat 5-3-2 in other words, a typical Verrou. MVP? Pirlo then is deeper than usual which indicates for him to perform a pressing role which is infinitely direct compared to Conte's 3-1-4-2 and STRIPS him of any freedom to which he usually plies his creative trade in. Marchisio, is forced to play a KPB-Park ji Sung role directly ahead of Pirlo which strips him of his attacking play, down to another sacrificial lamb, like Pirlo. MVP at this point is rendered almost useless, if not for Arturo Vidal, who has this system built around him in order to almost enforce the mid-formation line in a free role, since he is the only defensive player in the midfield. Makes sense right? Here are the cons of this system:

-Pirlo and Marchisio and the classic MVP chemistry and role placement is essentially dissolved in this sacrificial verrou which renders them as utility players. Why does Conte play it? He usually does in 2-legged Coppa Italia ties, occasional Serie A ties in which he rather preserve points than gain all 3 v competing teams (top table) and has deployed it v teams in the group stages this year. Who did he play it against?

-Lazio & Napoli, countless times this season and a blueprint of it last year (Remember coppa Italia final?)

-Nordsjaelland first leg
-Shaktar Donesk 1st leg
-Chelsea at Stamford Bridge 1st Half ONLY
-Catania in early season
-Celtic both legs
-And 1-2 other times.

What has been the reaction?

-Poor results v Napoli and Lazio.
-Poor results v Nords and Shaktar 1st leg
-Poor results in the first half v Chelsea (Oscar freely pressing the intentionally placed Pirlo)
-Intelligent play v Celtic to win yet highly cautious and far to tactical for such a team built upon a superior system.

By now you understand that Conte does not comprehend this system ONLY works v Provincial sides and NOT v quality sides, especially when you don't have the players to do so.

Want to know what happened in other times Juventus faced these teams with their correct 3-1-4-2? I'll let you guess

It has been the only facet which has tained Conte's reputation in questioning what is an approach which is COMPLETELY polar to his usual system to where this Verrou renders every player as a utility man (bar Vucinic and Vidal) and strips them of not only their finer abilities, but what they are exuberant on in Conte's brilliant 3-1-4-2.

What happened v Bayern? Conte-gate Mark II (Verrou edition) shows it ugly face again. His reasons

-Didn't study Bayern at all intentionally in the 1st leg as only not to distract the players when he formulated his Verrou to preserve defensive integrity whilst taking any chances on goals through Bayern pressing ahead on the door-lock system. Why didn't it work?

-Bayern's tactics themselves are the one that Juventus struggle against which is a quick possession based team who frequently use wide AMs to bring width from their narrow midfield. And now to the reasons

-Conte deployed the Verrou in Allianz Arena in hoping for a 0-0/0-1 for Juventus; its facets were. Two natural wingbacks in Peluso (back-up to Asamoah) and Lichtsteiner to essentially sit deep alongside the 3 man in a flat 5 man backline to which Bonnuci is restricted to be deeper than Cheillini and Barza (dissolving his role). It invited copious amounts of pressure since their wingbacks usually defend by counter pressing the wingers/wide AMs rather than sitting deep in a 5 man, WHICH also subdues Cheillini and Barza's tendency to nullify incoming threat wide of the box. The 3 Italians in the centre at this moment are without their freedom, just like MVP. Most disgusting choice for Bonnuci fans was to strip him of his SW role to which he performed admirably, but therefore unable to connect with Pirlo in the midfield ( )


-MVP, as explained earlier is involved with Pirlo in a role which doesn't exploit his ability in tight spaces, his tendency to roam while distributing passes, Marchisio to freely move off the ball and on the ball (think similar to Mueller's tendencies central) while Vidal is preserved in an enforcing role yet stripped of box-to-box freedom like Marchisio. Result?

-Pirlo cannot be Pirlo. No debate here as how some haven't seen this is shocking. Open space was afforded to him 2nd leg yet a restriction instruction in by Conte will render him useless. It was discussed earlier that this role is better for Lee Clattermole or Claude Makalele than a natural playmaker like Pirlo. BAFFLING decision

-Marchisio IS a creative player as his past managers made the mistake of playing him solely as a b2b guy who isn't free to create (roles matter) yet in the usual (sane) role he is creative (even statistically). V Bayern playing his Conte-gate Ji Sung park role, he is lost and without a doubt highly uncomfortable in a role to which his past managers made the mistake of playing him. (Think Mueller when he was a cog in a machine early season by Van Gaal). He is as useless as Pirlo here.

-Vidal? Freedom yet alone and without any congruency to perform that role beside two players who are not meant for such a role.

By now you understand Conte is using his Plan B system with a team who is not meant to play the Verrou. It would be like Dortmund play slow carving possession rather than their lightning fast counters.

Forwards (who people go on about for Juve) won't make a difference since even if Matri and Quags (or Quags and Vucinic) don't combine will only be a stick in the mud to why the midfield will be unable to supply service to these forwards.

2nd leg, Conte speaks of studying Bayern, he goes on to play the same system except with Vucinic correctly deployed to act in his usual possession holding SS providing to Quagliarella. Problem there aside from having the midfield unable to supply service is that Quags uses the SAME channels of movement as Vucinic does.

It initially made a difference due to Bayern leaving minor gaps to which the strikers attempted to exploit yet when Bayern tightened up; here was the same Juventus inviting pressure and waiting for gaps that WOULD NOT OPEN for thousands of reasons.

Oh yea, it didn't help to play this v Javi freaking Martinez who was absent in the 1st leg yet thrived v a system to which he DESTROYED on a regular basis at Athletic. Oh yes, and Bastian Schweinsteiger who salivates to the thought of pressing static midfielders (Pirlo open like a barn door target) as the Piggy-Javi partnership was in full bloom.

Conte? Smart enough to realize that changes cannot be made to this system (resort back to Plan A 3-1-4-2 is useless at this stage) but puzzling enough to play it in the first place.

-Notice not a single player had a good individual performance? Surely it was Bayern's brilliance? (Watch Bayern v Leverkusen)
It was the most baffling choice I have seen from a manager who I rate so highly. He is brilliant as evidenced by his original system that he has worked on for years and his ability to change the game with some ballsy tactics.

At this point, cultured Juve fans and I are wondering if his wig adhesives are starting to erode his brain.

So is the Regista ineffective? No because Pirlo was not playing a regista role as despite his placement it was a role meant more for Tiote than Pirlo.

Notes:

-Yes, Bayern have built a side focused on Europe since Van Gaal was pulling his shorts down to expose his gonads
-Yes this Juventus side have little to NO experience in Europe, coming into their first knock-out tie with a 42 year old manager who has no experience in European knock outs.


But that is INCIDENTAL because of Conte-gate! Seriously speaking, I was waiting for a feast, I anticipated a tactical battle in which would've come out in Bayern's favour...but NOT IN THIS FASHION! The scoreline and Juve's performance did not reflect on what they can do. Things are not as simple as that as there is a reason why Juventus struggle against tactics used by Catania, Cagliari first year, year dominate better midfields and teams. Conte-gate erodes any chance of mentality (since in the veurro you are a utility man with a job) or the freedom. Its an insult to players who have shone in the usual worked formation, yet cogged down to being a unit of 11 men. It was disgusting as Jupp himself expressed his disappointment in young Conte to why he did not show up to the occasion in taking a risk to take them head on with his own show-piece. Jupp is spot on as being one of the best managers of all time (in my not so humble opinion) and the most experienced manager in Europe outside Trapp, he understood to retain his same tactics because Conte once again shy from the risk needed. All funny considering Conte has shown nothing but balls and leadership. What caused him to shy away from the occasion? Was it his teams inexperience or his own? Was it bad Canoli?

(PS not taking credit away from Osram and Bayern as they fantastically performed to the opportunity presented to them)