Let's say Spain didn't have Xavi,Iniesta and Busquets

CBarca wrote:Another more interesting question to me is...Spain without Villa. How successful would they be?

Win both Euros. Crash out at hte group stages or quarters at the latest of the WC.

Spain played much better football when they had Senna instead of Busquets.

And Spain's Euro 2008 is overrated. They only won 2x convincing against Russia, but in the all other games they struggled and it was tight.

It was, but the 2008 Euros was packed with shit teams, you really didn't need a stroke of genius to win that one, hell, we reached the final, and that was one of the worst squads we ever had to field in an international tournament.

Excatly.

Spain has been really lucky with the competition. And its always One-goal-margin victories or Penalty Shoot-Outs. Thier 4-0 victory over Italy was because Italy played nearly the whole 2nd half with 10 players. It wouldnt have been 4-0 if it was 11v11.

But that's almost always true with football. The greatest teams don't always win. Cruyffs Holland lost in '74. Sure, ze Germans at the time were really f*cking great, but they weren't Cruyfffs Holland.

Barca just lost to Milan.

I just think fans and journalists tend to overstate how big the gap is. You can be the best team in the world and still lose to someone else in the top10 with a split-second lapse in concentration.

Spain beat us 1-0 twice. If that Kroos-volley hits home instead of aluminum in 2010, we might go through. If Ballack heads one in in 2008 we go through. And in 2008 we did not deserve to beat Spain, hell, we hardly deserved to get past Turkey.

Now Chelsea showed us the other way 'round in last year's UCL. Beat Barca and Bayern. That ain't right. Happens.

Margins between "TEH BEST LOL" and "very very good" are slim as f*ck. Even the brilliant Spain could've easily gone out a couple times in each of the past 3 big tournaments. Took penalties in 2008, got lucky with the ref and carried by Villa (and Casillas) in 2010, and had a pretty tough time in 2012 as well. And they are the best current international team.

I'm kind of still in the process of waking up, so I made this point 3 or 4 times now, but again: The margin between the top teams is very slim, and who "the best" is, only matters in a league system, in a knockout tournament it's always like at least 40% luck.

But when you win 3 international titles consecutively it is fair to say the gap between the Best and the rest is big and luck factor is very very low.

Adit wrote:But when you win 3 international titles consecutively it is fair to say the gap between the Best and the rest is big and luck factor is very very low.

Well, the German NT of the 70es won Euro 1972, WC1974 and were runners up in 1976 which is as close to current Spain as you can get in success and still everybody mainly raves about the Dutch NT of that time. So they actually were the best after all?

The difference is how RWO. How they won those tournaments and how they play their game.

Yes, at times its been boring close cut victories...but the domination of games they are capable of, when they actually put it all together, they are capable of playing at a level much higher than anyone else.

Viva is mostly right about the gap between the best and just below, however, there is a level of performance only they are capable of playing at.

Thats the difference between the perception of this Spain and that Germany. That Germany did not have that level of performance "ceiling"...in fact Holland did, which is why even today they are talked about, rather than being remembered as what technically they were, runners up.

Marcos Senna, the forgotten man

This is a bit off topic but I would like to share an anecdote.

I was living in Spain during the time of Euro 2008. I proudly walked the streets of Madrid in my De Rossi jersey and had great times with fans from all over the world. Many times in the pubs, I would talk about the prospect of Spain winning. The older generation of Spanish fans (men in their 40's) would pretty much to a man say that they couldnt do what they were doing without Marcos Senna. He was an absolute monster. There is no doubt about Busquets quality, but I found it remarkable how much the older generation pretty much unanimously dubbed Senna spains most important player in 2008.

Anyhow. The spanish are going through one of those periods where they are just producing talent all over the place. The midfield, especially the central midfield positions, seems to be where they are developing the most talent. I cant really say that they would still win WC 2010 or Euro 2012 without those 3 (Xavi, iniesta, and busquets are 3 WC players that were at the top of their game and you really have to be lying to yourself if anyone could replace them in that system with the degree of quality that they had).

They would still be a great team, but as many people have said over the years, Xavi and Iniesta are all time greats (i dont think they are BOATS, but close). You cant just replace those guys and expect to win, especially when they are the focal point of the system they employ.

and Dani, to your point, without Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets you definitly are not dominating. you would win, but not in that convincing, dominating, demoralizing way.

Spain haven't been all that impressive imo. They did beat Italy 4-0, but prior to that they were kinda just about winning games. Because of Spain winning, the 'Spain playing too many midfielders' thing has gone. However when they start losing, it'll probably start again.

However against France they did play with Villa and Pedro.

I think people are underrating Xabi here. Sure, he's not good as Xavi but still is a handful. He'll do a decent job in Xavi's role for Spain. Busquets and Iniesta, however, will be missed. Busquets might(?) be replaceable though.

And I disagree that Spain have not been impressive. That's how VdB wants the team to play. They play defensive-minded possession football whereas Barca plays attacking-minded possession football. Once they are in lead, they get defensive and just pass the ball around for time wasting and attack mostly upon counters.


Looks a decent enough team to me.

Alonso can't really go B2B playmaking like Xavi. Doesn't Xavi sort of play a more attacking role for Spain?

While I agree with Viva that Spain are not as mighty as the media make it seem, and he's correct to point out that they almost went out against Paraguay in the WC and didn't look that great in the Euros except in the final, I also think that when Spain get their tactics right and when they are truly motivated (looking at the euros I strongly suspect they only put 90% effort in a lot of matches, even competitive ones) I don't think anyone comes close to them.

Alonso would come nowhere close to replacing Xavi.

He's a great player no doubt but he could not replace Xavi without a large loss of quality.

Borjito could theoretically replace Xavi tbh

Zealous wrote:Borjito could theoretically replace Xavi tbh

This is why i troll Borja fans, absolute ridiculous comment whether you mean it or not.

Zealous wrote:Borjito could theoretically replace Xavi tbh

I like Borja... but not a chance lol.

Did Xavi shave his head? Oh wait it's BorjitoOoOoOoOoOo

wallow in the haterade moal.

Moal he's got a point...



BOOORRJJJJJAAAAAAAA

Zealous wrote:

Spoiler:

Did Xavi shave his head? Oh wait it's BorjitoOoOoOoOoOo

wallow in the haterade moal.

So Valero comes in on the 60th minute after Spain is already winning 3-0 and that's the example you choose to use?

Its a ridiculous comment because he's inferior to Thiago in every way imaginable and Thiago isn't good enough yet.

So if Thiago isn't good enough how can Borja be good enough?

Besides Alonso would be better than any other candidate at this time anyway.

As i said earlier Spain's style would have to change without Xaviesta they would have to play more like Germany.... which means....


Of course the wing options can be mixed about a bit but the premise is the same they would need a lot more direct play.

oh good god Villarreal

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Zealous wrote:

Spoiler:

Did Xavi shave his head? Oh wait it's BorjitoOoOoOoOoOo

wallow in the haterade moal.

So Valero comes in on the 60th minute after Spain is already winning 3-0 and that's the example you choose to use?

I used the worst example to prove Borjito's quality

@Mole

I would honestly use Isco on the wing. He'd give Spain that extra edge imo.

CBarca wrote:Moal he's got a point...



BOOORRJJJJJAAAAAAAA

BorjitoOoOoOoOoOoOoO