The Athletic Bilbao Situation

worms wrote:Basque is clearly not a nationality(Hence why there is no such country as Basque),if you would actually took some time to research it you will find that Basque is a ethnicity,Basques are their own sub race.Ramalho is only half Basque,you just admitted yourself that Ramalho is half Agolan thus he can't be fully Basque.



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Basque is a race, Basque is a language, Basque is an autonomous nation, and has existed longer than other European nations. If we weren't a nation then why do in Spanish databases do they identify those born within Euskadi as Basque AND Spanish???

Bro you suck at trolling. 1.2/10

Jonas is more Basque than he is Angolan. I don't even think he speaks fluent Portuguese. If he wasn't black we wouldn't even have this discussion you pseduo-racist hipster scum. 1.3/10

dis trollin needs to be put to an end.

"Jonas is more Basque than he is Angolan. "

Really? I thought you said he was half Angolan.

Dat Math

I am half Bosnian half Albanian. I feel as a member of both tbh. Though, i would say i am more Albanian in terms of culture and mentality because i grew up in Albanian community. If I were to grow in Bosnian community it would have been the opposite. If Jonas grew in Basque community and one of his parents is Basque I would say he is probably more Basque then Angolan, although he might feel he belongs to both the same. This has nothing to do with color of the skin. Bojan in Barca is the same. His parents are mix, his name is Serbian as is his father, but he refused the Serbian NT call-up if I am not wrong. He probably feels more Catalan then Serbian, as he grew up there.

That's the same problem with many people of Turkish heritage in Germany. It always depends on how they were brought up whether they feel more Turkish or more German.

worms wrote:Basque is clearly not a nationality(Hence why there is no such country as Basque),if you would actually took some time to research it you will find that Basque is a ethnicity,Basques are their own sub race.Ramalho is only half Basque,you just admitted yourself that Ramalho is half Agolan thus he can't be fully Basque.



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Your trying to tell an Euskal about his own province? If you haven't noticed, we are a self governed community and on our way from separating from Espãna. Our economy along with everything with it is self governed which is why the rest of the country is failing while our economy is by far the strongest within Espãna. We don't consider our land nor our people Spanish aside from a few exceptions.

If you actually read my post then you would realize that you only have to be raised and have basque heritage within you along with being trained in the Basque way to enter Athletic Club. Get the facts straight before commenting on policies that you aren't aware of.

Ethnic group + territory = Nation @worms.

The question is whether balkanisation of Spain makes any sense (hint: it doesn't), but that doesn't mean that there is no legitimate claim to Nationhood, IF you accept the premise that every proto-tribe should get it's own constitution.

I just happen to think that federalization works better, but if your argument for nationhood is ethnicity (race isn't a thing btw), then Basques, and Catalans, are something different.

Then again, they could just get the f*ck over it, you don't hear Saxons, Thuringians, Hessians, Bavarians, and Hanseates bitch and moan about seceding from Germany every other week.

But that's because German unification was forged in glorious victory against the French. Italian and Spanish "unification" was a little more forced than Bismarck's method and hence there's far more Intranational tension.

Well they should go to war with France, then. That's never wrong.

VivaStPauli wrote:Seriously, in the age of globalization, internationalization, and the European Union, how can you manage to give a shit in which valley a dude is born?

Typical!
One of the most nationalistic users, who is all the time praising his country and his compatriots, saying that nationality is irrelevant.

You can start by applying this to yourself and try to follow something beyond German borders.

Lol vivas is not a die-hard nationalist.

Anyways I have no problems with accepting that a club is an extension of a people. I remember a couple years back De Laurentis, Napoli's president, had a public war with Lavezzi because he was out whoring, and his argument was "a player for Napoli is an embodiment of the Napolitan people and thus should act in an exemplary way" (obviously paraphrased). Bilbao takes this a step further by actually making it part of their philosophy (whether that's moral or not is not the question at hand) and extending it to the entire Basque country. But it's not surprising that this happens, especially in Spain where clubs are often used as proxies for their region's nationalism since they have no formal representation as a country.

Arquitecto you don't speak for every Basque person just because you claim to be Basque yourself.Most Basque people wouldn't consider Ramalho Basque,only half Basque.The fact that he wouldn't have been allowed to play for Athletic just 5 or so years ago proves he isn't Basque.And it's fine that he and other non Basques plays for you as long as you don't keep on claiming your club Athletic Club only play Basque players because it's simply no longer true.You might as well just scrap this rule completely now and let anybody play for you as the rule is so watered down that in the future it's just going to get less and less Basque and it will become a complete joke.


"If you actually read my post then you would realize that you only have to be raised and have basque heritage within you along with being trained in the Basque way to enter Athletic Club."

Now players only have to have some Basque heritage,hence why the likes of Ramalho can now play for you.Just several years ago only full Basques(somebody with 2 parents who are fully Basques) were allowed to play for you,one of your players in your current squad was born in Venezuela and he plays for them but he also plays for Athletic because both his parents are fully Basque.This in in itself proves Basques are a sub race and not a nationality.Being a certain Sub race or Race by definition means that you are 100% of that Sub race or Race .Simple logic really,it's clear to see unless somebody is so deluded to ignore reality and instead believe what ever makes them happy.


Any Basque who isn't trying to be politically correct will admit this,I have read messages on internet forums/websites by real Basque Athletic fans disagreeing that Ramalho should be playing for them.Also they are disgruntled that the club has decided to scrap the Basque only rule just as their is an excellent generation of Basque players coming through.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Lol vivas is not a die-hard nationalist.

Noooo, que va! He isn't nationalistic at all. That's why he never mentions anything about Germany, Bundesliga, German players or German girls, beer, etc. Never praises Germany in any way or diminishes other nations (see post above).

[/sarcasm]

Btw, worms complains are racist, complaining because Bilbao has a black player.
Jonas Ramalho is the same case of lots of previous other Athletic Bilbao players who were born in the Basque country but had a parent/both parents from abroad Basque country.

VivaStPauli wrote:
The question is whether balkanisation of Spain makes any sense (hint: it doesn't), but that doesn't mean that there is no legitimate claim to Nationhood, IF you accept the premise that every proto-tribe should get it's own constitution.

I just happen to think that federalization works better, but if your argument for nationhood is ethnicity (race isn't a thing btw), then Basques, and Catalans, are something different.

Then again, they could just get the f*ck over it, you don't hear Saxons, Thuringians, Hessians, Bavarians, and Hanseates bitch and moan about seceding from Germany every other week.

Balkanisation of Spain wouldn't be good. I agree. The balkans endured several wars and genocides because the main part (Serbia) didn't want to let go the small ones. Hope Basques and Catalans can become independent and Spaniards are more civilized than Serbs. With attitudes like yours might be difficult. Hope your prime minister doesn't have the same attitude.

Just don't compare Germany to Spain because it doesn't have any similarity. Neither Bavarians to Catalans. Germany is a uninational state, everyone is german. Off course the minor differences can be easily solved through federalism. While Basque and Catalans are as different to spanish than italians to spanish. In this circumstances, federalism doesn't work, plus, Spain is unwilling to federate and what they want is to end with us as a country.

For you it's fine, because you are from an 80 milion super power, but for us it's something important.

I'd appreciate if you refrain from comenting on a situation you don't understand, are very biased, and about which you are clearly poorly informed.

free_cat wrote:Btw, worms complains are racist, complaining because Bilbao has a black player.
Jonas Ramalho is the same case of lots of previous other Athletic Bilbao players who were born in the Basque country but had a parent/both parents from abroad Basque country.

Wrong,I am complaining because a Athletic fan on here is claiming that their team only has Basque players when they currently have a player who isn't even Spanish or French never mind Basque.

I don't care what colour Ramalho is.I would say the same if Athletic had a Russian playing for them.

This is just the beginning,soon it will be that players with zero Basque in them are allowed to play for them as long as they were born there.Then it will be players with zero Basque in them can move to that part of Spain and play for Real Sociedad for example and gain some kind of citizenship after 5 years or something so then they can play for Athletic.

Meanwhile some deluded Athletic fans will still be boasting about their special "Basque" team which resists the evils of globalization and shouting down anyone who says otherwise.

Everyone has ancestors that are not from their country of birth. Your complain is thus stupid and hence Ramalho is not the first half Basque to play for bilbao, but you don't complain about past ones, you come across as very racist.

This is boring now anyway so I will leave it at that,though it will be fun watching him clutching at straws trying to reject the fact that the Basques are a race and not a nationality.

free_cat wrote:Everyone has ancestors that are not from their country of birth. Your complain is thus stupid and hence Ramalho is not the first half Basque to play for bilbao, but you don't complain about past ones, you come across as very racist.

At least all those other half Basques were actually Spanish or French though,from the area just around Basque terriortory.They were still relatively local.But now they have some Half Angolan(A country nowhere near Basque terriotory with a culture and race totally different from the Basques culture and race) playing for them and they claim to be still a Basque team.

So you have resorted to playing the racist card because you know you can't argue with my points.How predictable.If you aren't going to debate like an adult then I won't bother responding to you anymore.

And what do you smoke saying that basques are a race? you can't tell apart a Basque from a catalan, from a French or a Spanish. They are a people with a different culture, bit has nothing to do with races.

Ramalho is born and bred in the Basque country. He is 100% Basque in my book. Even if he had no Basque parents, he still would be 100% Basque.

worms wrote:Arquitecto you don't speak for every Basque person just because you claim to be Basque yourself.Most Basque people wouldn't consider Ramalho Basque,only half Basque.The fact that he wouldn't have been allowed to play for Athletic just 5 or so years ago proves he isn't Basque.And it's fine that he and other non Basques plays for you as long as you don't keep on claiming your club Athletic Club only play Basque players because it's simply no longer true.You might as well just scrap this rule completely now and let anybody play for you as the rule is so watered down that in the future it's just going to get less and less Basque and it will become a complete joke.


"If you actually read my post then you would realize that you only have to be raised and have basque heritage within you along with being trained in the Basque way to enter Athletic Club."

Now players only have to have some Basque heritage,hence why the likes of Ramalho can now play for you.Just several years ago only full Basques(somebody with 2 parents who are fully Basques) were allowed to play for you,one of your players in your current squad was born in Venezuela and he plays for them but he also plays for Athletic because both his parents are fully Basque.This in in itself proves Basques are a sub race and not a nationality.Being a certain Sub race or Race by definition means that you are 100% of that Sub race or Race .Simple logic really,it's clear to see unless somebody is so deluded to ignore reality and instead believe what ever makes them happy.


Any Basque who isn't trying to be politically correct will admit this,I have read messages on internet forums/websites by real Basque Athletic fans disagreeing that Ramalho should be playing for them.Also they are disgruntled that the club has decided to scrap the Basque only rule just as their is an excellent generation of Basque players coming through.

I only speak for what increasingly is an imminent desire within Euskadi and that is to become and independent nation from Espana. Most Basque people don't consider Ramalho Basque? That's funny given that all he has is praise for the whole province in not discriminating against him along with playing with all youth systems of U-16-21 for Espana. Try to comprehend that just because he is Half-angolan by blood does not change the fact that he is mother is Basque, and is born in raised within the province. Nobody aside from you seems to continue to notice the difference between him and us while he hasn't even been under a moments controversy due to his skin colour. This isn't Eastern Europe, Basque's and Spaniards alike don't discriminate as a whole vs people like Ramalho. We consider him Basque while the Espana followers will consider him Spanish, not black or Angolan.

Wouldn't be able to play 5 years ago? Please just because he is the first exception based on his skin colour doesn't change the policy which has remained 100% the same since the clubs inception. Only minor changes have been based on French Biskonia and that was over 50 years ago. Fallacious stuff here.

Here is more fallacious crap that you have posted:

-That "some" of Athletic's players are not Basque despite ALL of them being born and (bar Amorebieta) being raised in the province and being raised within the Basque footballing and cultural ways.

-That you have to have 2 parents that are Basque in order to fit the Basque policy. You couldn't be more wrong here. Just for extra data, Ramalho's father who is Angolan is half Basque himself. Nonetheless don't bring out false rules within the policy just to prove your point. I already named all the requisites needed in order to fit the policy within this thread. Read 'em again.

-Amorebieta is the Venezuelan you speak of. Yes he is 100% Basque by blood yet came into the province at the age of 5 and was raised within Basque youth systems which 100% qualifies him to be fit to play for Athletic.

- So you're debate comes from a bunch of xenophobic morons on the internet, while I live within the province and live among the Basques. You support Barcelona? I'm sure you are aware that nobody pays attention to the Ultra Barcelona tifo cules where some of them are discriminate and racist as well. Every set of fan groups have exceptions within every footballing club. Just a few goons on the internet doesn't change a large masses opinion on a certain subject. Frankly you are the only one who has a problem here with the Basque policy.

-

VivaStPauli wrote:Ethnic group + territory = Nation @worms.

The question is whether balkanisation of Spain makes any sense (hint: it doesn't), but that doesn't mean that there is no legitimate claim to Nationhood, IF you accept the premise that every proto-tribe should get it's own constitution.

I just happen to think that federalization works better, but if your argument for nationhood is ethnicity (race isn't a thing btw), then Basques, and Catalans, are something different.

Then again, they could just get the f*ck over it, you don't hear Saxons, Thuringians, Hessians, Bavarians, and Hanseates bitch and moan about seceding from Germany every other week.

Viva the history between Catalunya and Basque Country with Espana is completely different to the history between the Saxonies, Hessia, Bavaria and Hanseatic League.

I'm guessing at the moment you aren't well informed on the history of the Basques, and Catalans vs the Spaniards. The pure hate has dissipated yet that doesn't justify Espana from all the injustices they commit to this day. Like what? Their sheer governmental and monarchical hypocrisy, robbing the Catalan and Basque banks annually as if borrowing from the stronger economies (Basque and Catalan) wasn't enough along with sheer disrespect of our cultures due to some medieval totalitarian bullshit. I could go on and on why there is a need for both provinces to separate from Espana along with the benefits incurred. This isn't Quebec where a bunch of rebellious groups want to separate for know reason, this is a strong movement of think tanks and minds who have grown weary of the Spanish injustice towards our culture. Its as if the bundesregierung disrespected the Bavarian unicameral Landtag, their culture, attempting to ban the Bavarian Tracht, ban their three dialects while continually robbing from the bayerische landesbank. Their is no animosity between the 2 provinces vs the Spaniards yet only formal movements in order to separate to which the Spaniards continue to disrespect and trash away without any reason except that it would devastate their economy. Autonomy has given the Catalans and Basque the two of the strongest economies while complete independence would only further augment that.

worms wrote:

free_cat wrote:Btw, worms complains are racist, complaining because Bilbao has a black player.
Jonas Ramalho is the same case of lots of previous other Athletic Bilbao players who were born in the Basque country but had a parent/both parents from abroad Basque country.

Wrong,I am complaining because a Athletic fan on here is claiming that their team only has Basque players when they currently have a player who isn't even Spanish or French never mind Basque.

I don't care what colour Ramalho is.I would say the same if Athletic had a Russian playing for them.

This is just the beginning,soon it will be that players with zero Basque in them are allowed to play for them as long as they were born there.Then it will be players with zero Basque in them can move to that part of Spain and play for Real Sociedad for example and gain some kind of citizenship after 5 years or something so then they can play for Athletic.

Meanwhile some deluded Athletic fans will still be boasting about their special "Basque" team which resists the evils of globalization and shouting down anyone who says otherwise.

Once again you ignore that Ramalho is half Basque (from his mother) with an Angolan father who is of Basque ancestry not to mention that Ramalho is born and raised within Basque Country.

As for your predictions on how the policy will change? Gave me a good laugh.

worms wrote:This is boring now anyway so I will leave it at that,though it will be fun watching him clutching at straws trying to reject the fact that the Basques are a race and not a nationality.

worms wrote:This is boring now anyway so I will leave it at that,though it will be fun watching him clutching at straws trying to reject the fact that the Basques are a race and not a nationality.

You do realize that Basque's have literally nothing to do in ancestry with the Spaniards? I doubt you knew that anyway.

Nonetheless first respond to my post before this one.

-In fact, if the Basque policy is not what it is now, it would have been sanctioned by FIFA for being racist.

As Arq mentioned, being able to play for Bilbao means you are affiliated with the region in two ways only:

-Either born there.
or
-Raised there.

This makes it a distinction based on place and not ethnicity, so assuming I go and live in Basque, and I have kids from a non basque, but my kids are born and raised in the Athletic Bilbao system. Then they can play for them according to the Athletic Bilbao despite them being Iraqis and non-Basque. If they were not allowed according to the system, then FIFA would force them to change it because it would then be racist.

Theoretically any club could have a policy like Bilbao's and their argument is encouraging local development, if you curtail that local development based on race and/or ethnicity or based on religion or any such thing, then the policy becomes racist and subject to sanctions from UEFA and FIFA etc.

Lord Spencer wrote:-In fact, if the Basque policy is not what it is now, it would have been sanctioned by FIFA for being racist.

As Arq mentioned, being able to play for Bilbao means you are affiliated with the region in two ways only:

-Either born there.
or
-Raised there.

This makes it a distinction based on place and not ethnicity, so assuming I go and live in Basque, and I have kids from a non basque, but my kids are born and raised in the Athletic Bilbao system. Then they can play for them according to the Athletic Bilbao despite them being Iraqis and non-Basque. If they were not allowed according to the system, then FIFA would force them to change it because it would then be racist.

Theoretically any club could have a policy like Bilbao's and their argument is encouraging local development, if you curtail that local development based on race and/or ethnicity or based on religion or any such thing, then the policy becomes racist and subject to sanctions from UEFA and FIFA etc.

Why thank you Spencer. I never expected less coming from you. Sadly on this forum bar the exceptions, its hard to have a discussion on Athletic Club and their policy without ignorance and prejudice spreading on the subject itself.

I notice it comes mostly from either Real Madrid supporters or just people who don't comprehend the footballing philosophies within Espana and how they strive to develop their own provincial talent.

Doesn't matter if you are Muslim, Gay, Black or any other form of minorities (regarding Basque's keep in mind) as along as you have a certain degree of Basque heritage, embrace its culture, language and raised in its footballing ways.

Actually Spencer from my own research I can say I was disappointed to find out that if you are raised in the basque country but don't have a parent that is basque then you're likely to be rejected when trying out for them. Apparently being raised there is not enough.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Actually Spencer from my own research I can say I was disappointed to find out that if you are raised in the basque country but don't have a parent that is basque then you're likely to be rejected when trying out for them. Apparently being raised there is not enough.

What if you become a naturalized Basque citizen? What I learned is that is supposed to be enough! Granted, if becoming a naturalized citizen is complicated it would be an obstacle.