Re: Where does Cristiano Ronaldo fit in football's history ?

by Valkyrja Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:45 pm

Harmonica wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:
Harmonica wrote:Gunpoint, when was this?

Sorry, technically he got robbed this season, because of last season - meaning: I think he should've won the Ballon d'Or; he just had the better season than Messi, if you take into account the league win and the Euros.
I'd rather Messi have gotten his 4th the next time around.

Note that I have no doubt about Messis eventual 4th Ballon, I just think Ronaldo deserved the award for his performances in 2012. Especially the 2nd part of the 11/12 season and the Euros.
How did he have better season or year? He won more or more major team trophies, as in La Liga? Well then surely Torres or Mata were robbed even more?

Messi was better in La Liga, La Liga player of season, better in Uefa Champions League, Uefa Champions League top scorer, in Copa Del Rey, Golden Boot, broke about 100 scoring records, about 15 of them being major ones.

I fail to see how Cronaldo's exploits in Euros come even close to dipping the balance in his favour. And most of people saw that, which the vote projects.

Messi better in UCL and La Liga ? When he flopped in most of the away games ? And score 10+ goals after they lost the title when everyone played for him ? In UCL because he scored 2 penalties against an average Milan side and 5 goals against Leverkusen ? He is the better player, but he clearly didn't have a better season.

by Harmonica Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:48 pm

likeastar wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:

Sorry, technically he got robbed this season, because of last season - meaning: I think he should've won the Ballon d'Or; he just had the better season than Messi, if you take into account the league win and the Euros.
I'd rather Messi have gotten his 4th the next time around.

Note that I have no doubt about Messis eventual 4th Ballon, I just think Ronaldo deserved the award for his performances in 2012. Especially the 2nd part of the 11/12 season and the Euros.
How did he have better season or year? He won more or more major team trophies, as in La Liga? Well then surely Torres or Mata were robbed even more?

Messi was better in La Liga, La Liga player of season, better in Uefa Champions League, Uefa Champions League top scorer, in Copa Del Rey, Golden Boot, broke about 100 scoring records, about 15 of them being major ones.

I fail to see how Cronaldo's exploits in Euros come even close to dipping the balance in his favour. And most of people saw that, which the vote projects.

Messi better in UCL and La Liga ? When he flopped in most of the away games ? And score 10+ goals after they lost the title when everyone played for him ? In UCL because he scored 2 penalties against an average Milan side and 5 goals against Leverkusen ? He is the better player, but he clearly didn't have a better season.

Short memory eh?

Spoiler:

by Nirgall Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:50 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Nirgall wrote:And Ballon d'or is a popularity constest without questions. I doesn't even have an established criteria to vote. People are still arguing wether the award is for best player in the world, player with best season, or best player of the team that won the most.
No it's not lol, some people vote their palls sure, but it all evens out in the end, and the results itself portray pretty correctly who was the best player of the year, in opinion of the majority. At least when the difference is this big.

The best player of the year who happens to be almost always either a striker or a creative midfielder. And what is the meaning of the best player of the year? the best player that played during that year? the player with the best form during that year? the player that excelled in the team that won the most important trophies that year? how do you define that.

People simply vote the player they like the most and afterwards look for argument to justify it. If you like messi you say: he is the best player in the world, if you like Pirlo you mention his influence for Juventus and Italy, If you like iniesta you mention his national team success, if you like ronaldo, you say of the the two elite players he won the most important team trophies.

I mean noone is telling you what criteria to use to vote. So you simply pick who you like and then accomodate the criteria to fit him.

by Harmonica Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:59 pm

Nirgall wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
Nirgall wrote:And Ballon d'or is a popularity constest without questions. I doesn't even have an established criteria to vote. People are still arguing wether the award is for best player in the world, player with best season, or best player of the team that won the most.
No it's not lol, some people vote their palls sure, but it all evens out in the end, and the results itself portray pretty correctly who was the best player of the year, in opinion of the majority. At least when the difference is this big.

The best player of the year who happens to be almost always either a striker or a creative midfielder. And what is the meaning of the best player of the year? the best player that played during that year? the player with the best form during that year? the player that excelled in the team that won the most important trophies that year? how do you define that.

People simply vote the player they like the most and afterwards look for argument to justify it. If you like messi you say: he is the best player in the world, if you like Pirlo you mention his influence for Juventus and Italy, If you like iniesta you mention his national team success, if you like ronaldo, you say of the the two elite players he won the most important team trophies.

I mean noone is telling you what criteria to use to vote. So you simply pick who you like and then accomodate the criteria to fit him.

It the best player performance of the year, I'm pretty sure that's how it tells in the ballot. How do you define that? Fifa provides some highlights of the players achievements and people subjectively define it then.

So how the hell do you know how everybody votes?

by Onyx Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:01 pm

Just because Ronaldo doesn't walk around making 1-2's with the midfielders doesn't mean he has no other qualities aside from finishing. :coffee:

by Beautiful Football Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:01 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:He got robbed this season though, for sure. :X
Gunpoint, when was this?

Sorry, technically he got robbed this season, because of last season - meaning: I think he should've won the Ballon d'Or; he just had the better season than Messi, if you take into account the league win and the Euros.
I'd rather Messi have gotten his 4th the next time around.

Note that I have no doubt about Messis eventual 4th Ballon, I just think Ronaldo deserved the award for his performances in 2012. Especially the 2nd part of the 11/12 season and the Euros.

i completely disagree,messi was top scoreer in every tournament he played and top 2 as-sisters in la liga
and probably UCl. You Have to consider other part of the game for two player as well (Not only goals) where Ronaldo is not even close to messi IMO.
I don't know when people compare messi and CR why its always goals.you have to look other part of the game if you are being honest.Last seasons Barca fail as a team not Messi.Villa was injured,Pedro out of form and injured. Alexis was injured, Messi had Cex only.where real had almost full strength team through out whole seasons where benzema and GH score lots of goal as madrid finished seasons with 121 goals.Not to mention for barca CP injury GP out of form for almost full seasons.Yet messi keep barca competitive until last clasico and eventually lost la liga for 9 points.
As for Euro CR carried by portugal to KO stage.Where he score against worst defence in the whole tournament and yet when portugal needed him for against best team of the tournment he completely chocked and did not even take the penalty as a leader to set the example.And please don't tell me he was top scorer with three goals so was torres. Rolling Eyes

Now look at madrid when they have some injury (specially Marcelo and GH) and bad form of CB where is CR leading to Madrid.lol they are already 16 points behind in la liga at half way.Finally Ballon d'or count from January To December, not only for last season. CR already lost la liga(not mathematically.)and you have to consider that as well. IMO Messi Fully deserved the award for Best Historical season ever produced by a single player in the history of football. Yet If he(messi) doesn't deserved the balllon D'or, honestly there is no point of having a Individual Award In Football.

by Dutti Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:13 pm

Strictly speaking, if Ronaldo is in top 10, then he is also in top 25 and 35. Very Happy

by Valkyrja Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:26 pm

Messi's contribution is the same as Ronaldo's if not less if you take out assists and dribbles in the middle which count for nothing. Ronaldo's off the ball movements are the best by far in today's game. His dribbling is underrated too. I know Messi is better but the difference isn't as big as ppl make it to be. If Messi is 9.5/10 then Ronaldo is 9/10.

by Nirgall Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:37 pm

If assists and dribbles count for nothing I simply don't understand football.

So in football only scoring is important and everything that happened before that made the goal possible is simply irrelevant?

by Beautiful Football Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:39 pm

likeastar wrote:Messi's contribution is the same as Ronaldo's if not less if you take out assists and dribbles in the middle which count for nothing. Ronaldo's off the ball movements are the best by far in today's game. His dribbling is underrated too. I know Messi is better but the difference isn't as big as ppl make it to be. If Messi is 9.5/10 then Ronaldo is 9/10.

Tell me why we take out the assist because CR sucks at them.You are comparing two footballer and their contribution. As for middle of the pitch dribble count for nothing Rolling Eyes

.Do you know even what is football. If you dribble and keep the ball that's mean you are keeping the possession of the ball and defending for your team,Which is very vital in a football match.

by Nirgall Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:44 pm

Dribbling is not important for keeping possesion. it's actually a pretty crappy way to keep possesion since a pass to a team mate takes a lot less effort and tends to be more effective.

But Dribbling is important even in the middle of the field because it forces other players out of their defensive positions. If you get rid of the DM the CD either has to advance towards you and create space at his back or give you space to shoot or pass. That's just one example but you see messi creating a number of goalscoring opportunities by starting to dribble at the centre of the field.

by Beautiful Football Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:50 pm

Nirgall wrote:Dribbling is not important for keeping possesion. it's actually a pretty crappy way to keep possesion since a pass to a team mate takes a lot less effort and tends to be more effective.

But Dribbling is important even in the middle of the field because it forces other players out of their defensive positions. If you get rid of the DM the CD either has to advance towards you and create space at his back or give you space to shoot or pass. That's just one example but you see messi creating a number of goalscoring opportunities by starting to dribble at the centre of the field.

No, still you are keeping ball possesion which is not completely useless. And there is tactical dribble to keep ball
possession which xavi iniesta messi and busi do lot in barca to keep possession. See some video in youtube made by allias or some one can not remember atm.

by Valkyrja Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:53 pm

I'm saying that because Messi is starting to lose the ball in the final third more and more.

And CR doesn't suck at assists. He had ?16? assists like season... that's pretty good considering that Ozil is the man with the final pass in our team.

by The Franchise Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:58 pm

Giggity and others, who insist he is top 10-15

Here are 20 names with no order and not necessarily the top 20 either, please feel free to name the ones he is better than.

Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Platini, Garrincha, Eusiabo, Messi, Beckenbauer, Garrincha, Di Stefano, Meazza, Zidane, Puskas, Ronaldo, Zico, Didi, Muller, Charlton, Van Basten and Best.

I done you the favour of leaving out every goalkeeper, fullback and centerback.

I also left out as many ex-Barca players as possible to lower the possible butthurt.

Go ahead, amuse us all.

by the xcx Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:03 pm

Did you watch all of the players from their era just to prove a point? I think not, now your just typing up some random names here.

by Beautiful Football Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:05 pm

likeastar wrote:I'm saying that because Messi is starting to lose the ball in the final third more and more.

And CR doesn't suck at assists. He had ?16? assists like season... that's pretty good considering that Ozil is the man with the final pass in our team.

OK you have ozil for final ball why not CR. he supposed to be best player in your team and had 16 assists.IN barca its messi, why because He is ozil+CR.Now see the difference between messi and CR. You should watch a football match more deeply then you will understand lot more.Messi do every thing for some purpose nothing useless or fancy .He will go ultimate efficient way to benefit his team.

by Valkyrja Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:08 pm

Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

by The Franchise Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:10 pm

The xcx wrote:Did you watch all of the players from their era just to prove a point? I think not, now your just typing up some random names here.

Random names to you because you dont know squat about the sport.

As I said, who is he better than. If you want to go around saying he is top X, at least tell us who he is better than.

by Harmonica Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:11 pm

likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

So Cruyff and Di Stefano won World Cup then?

by Valkyrja Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:11 pm

Beautiful Football wrote:
likeastar wrote:I'm saying that because Messi is starting to lose the ball in the final third more and more.

And CR doesn't suck at assists. He had ?16? assists like season... that's pretty good considering that Ozil is the man with the final pass in our team.

OK you have ozil for final ball why not CR. he supposed to be best player in your team and had 16 assists.IN barca its messi, why because He is ozil+CR.Now see the difference between messi and CR. You should watch a football match more deeply then you will understand lot more.Messi do every thing for some purpose nothing useless or fancy .He will go ultimate efficient way to benefit his team.

Because Real Madrid isn't the club to feed a player. Every player in this team wants to be the best, in Barcelona every player wants Messi to be the best. That's the culture.

by The Franchise Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:11 pm

likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

Cruyff hasnt won a WC either. But more importantly, I thought this was about Cristiano?

by Valkyrja Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:12 pm

Harmonica wrote:
likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.
So Cruyff and Di Stefano won World Cup then?

Cruyff was unlucky not to win it. They revolutioned the game that's why they are the best. Messi is yet to do that.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:13 pm

Di Stefano hasn't won a WC either Laughing

as i said earlier PLS STAHP.

by Harmonica Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:15 pm

likeastar wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.
So Cruyff and Di Stefano won World Cup then?

Cruyff was unlucky not to win it. They revolutioned the game that's why they are the best. Messi is yet to do that.

Aah, so that's enough, if he unluckily doesn't win it. Tell me, how did they revolutionize the game in relation to Messi?

by Beautiful Football Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:15 pm

likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

No he is better than him why because Zico had a chance to shine in Europe.
He did ok at the age of 30.But not like messi. He had one of the best talented
team in the history of football to lead in the world cup but failed.If messi had that team brazil would became Winner in 1982 IMO

by the xcx Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:21 pm

Think I do know, I just dont like to dwell on history what happend in 50 years ago.

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