the official Dwayne Wade <<<<<< you thread

LeBron has worse post moves than Dwight. I mean its laughably bad.

Swagg wrote:LeBron can create his shot very well though, his jumper is just not money like KD's.. KD's a MUCH better shooter, but the creating part is close

Even scoring as a whole they're comparable, LeBron has a pretty damn high career regular season and playoff scoring average.. He gets his buckets in different ways

All around shooting is what goes in KD and Bird's favor.. But all around excellence is what gives LeBron and MJ the edge over these two

But the creating part itself is hindered by the fact he is inconsistent. He worked much better off the ball, not creating his own shot and that was why he won the title in the first place. He is too slow in isolations, holds the ball too long, that is why it failed for him in Cleveland for so long.

I dont agree with the last part. Jordan is a higher level than all these guys, and Bird and Durant arent really similar , nor LBJ of course. Jordan didnt pass the ball like LBJ..if anything, Bird did and meanwhile Jordan was the gunslinger like KD is. Both Bird and Lebron would give it up without a double team, they would be point guard ish in the ability to just find the open man with or without the double.

Jordan and KD aint passing the ball untill you over commit in some way.

The only similarilty Bird and KD have is they are tall and shoot well, whereas Jordan and LBJ are both drivers first and foremost.

@Sam

He's fast enough to just hit you with a quick cross-over and create enough space for a jumper that he may or may not make lol.. Thing's like that, if he wants to get his shot up uncontested you damn well know he can..

No fade-away? C'mon man, he does those often.. Scoring them is different since again he's not the best shooter around.. But he can easily get the shot up

I just checked and LeBron has a higher career scoring average in the regular season and playoffs.. Not saying he's the better scorer but he gets his buckets like I said

Gil wrote:LeBron has worse post moves than Dwight. I mean its laughably bad.

Well he has bad feet, doesnt move them so well, but he overpowers you or fades away. It aint pretty but you got to say its effective.

Le Samourai wrote:I get that. At the same time I think it comes with the territory. The guy has ridiculous intensity and is just up and down up and down- I don't think decision making can ever be his strong point.

He looks bad when they slow it down. He gets assists but he telegraphs them as well, he gets predictable when he has the ball. I think he would thrive in a role where they had a distributor and a floor spacer at the top of the key.

Imagine if they made a push for Jason Kidd this summer. Unstoppable right there.

And as I said- Durant in his own way needs to be smarter at times as well. It's not like he's the only player with issues on the squad.It gets magnified because his role is a bit outside where it should be.

Think your underselling it and overselling KD but generally agree with.

KD turns it over too much, but I see him doing that as he expands his playmaking game..thats normal, he is evolving.

Westbrook just makes plain bad basketball decisions too often.

I understand Lebrons jumpshooting issue. Its mental obviously.

When he wants to take it, they go in. He struggles when someone intentionally forces him to shoot jumpers, seems like he has to go out and prove he can do it and then he clanks them.

In the end, its not that important, he gets himself to the rim one way or the other easily and scores, gets fouled or both.

Flight White is like 30 something. Can't believe he still has the hops.

True, but he was so insanely athletic and the competition sucks so much now, he probably still favourite.

In other news.

Anyone hear about Melo fasting? WTF is that about? Are you trying to suck or something?

This is also a good read, you can imagine who im siding with im sure.



Memphis Grizzlies head coach Lionel Hollins criticized the shift towards analytics in the NBA and called it a "bad trait" of teams during a radio interview on Friday. It's an interesting opinion, considering the Grizzlies recently hired stats guru John Hollinger as their new vice president of basketball operations.
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The rampant Rudy Gay trade rumors are making everyone in Memphis a bit crazy, but it's becoming clear that members of the team are particularly against any move to break up the core of the squad. Rudy Gay said he wants to stay in Memphis, and on Friday morning head coach Lionel Hollins expressed his displeasure with the idea of breaking up the team -- as well as his distrust of the underlying statistical arguments that support shipping out Gay -- during a radio interview on Sports 56 WHBQ in Memphis.

Hollins predictably came to the defense of his star small forward during the interview, but things got interesting when he started to express his opinion on the rise of analytics in the NBA. In short, Hollins doesn't think advanced statistical metrics and measures are fit to capture the contributions of a player like Rudy Gay. Here's a bit of what he had to say:

"The reality is that we have a very versatile small forward that is 6'9. There aren't many guys out there like that. He can post up, shoot from the perimeter [and] he can attack the basket. He defends LeBron James, he defendsKevin Durant and all these guys that are tall, and strong, and quick and athletic. We don't have another player on our rsoter with that versatility, and most teams don't. That's the bottom line."


"There are a lot of expectations that go with that contract, but as I've told all the players that sign a new contract, 'you are still the same player.' Obviously, the media and fans expect more, because you get paid more, but the reality is that everybody has a role. Andrei Kirilenko, for years, was a max player in Utah, but he was not the best player on that team. The leverage was such where he became a max player, and they kept him until his contract is up. He served a very valuable role. You can't knock players for getting contracts because they have leverage. That's what negotiating is all about."


Sometimes, circumstances dictate the kinds of shots you get. When we have marc and zach on the inside, it's hard to find a spot to put them when we want to post rudy more. Rudy's adjusted to that from day one. You hear people say that Rudy and Zach can't play together and they don't fit. They do fit! They need each other. Zach needs Rudy'sversatility, and Rudy needs Zach to post up and get rebounds.


"We get hung up on statistics a little too much, and I think that's a bad trait all over the league that's taken place. And the media has done it because it's easy to go to the stats to make a point or to build up a player or tear down a player. Just the analyzing, I see it every time listening to talk show radio. You've got guys spouting off stat after stat after stat. The bottom line is going out and contributing to your team for winning."

The back end of the comments strike an odd note, considering the Grizzlies recently hired stats guru and former-ESPN analytics expert John Hollinger as their new vice president of basketball operations last month. Not only is Hollinger a man who believes in the value of metrics like Player Efficiency Rating and adjusted plus-minus, he was also a prominent member of the media who used stats extensively during his time at ESPN. It's not news that an old-school coach is wary of the statistical revolution in basketball -- a game with so many moving parts and un-recorded events -- but he didn't stop there. It's probably worth setting the table with some context before exploring the rest of the interview, however.

The Grizzlies are up against a difficult salary cap situation next season -- they have committed $58 million to Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol and Mike Conley for 2013-14 -- and something has to give for a small market team that is unlikely to pay penalties an increasingly aggressive luxury tax system.

Since Hollinger assumed his duties within the organization, Rudy Gay has been singled out in NBA trade rumors as the most likely player to depart. This is not a coincidence. Gay is the most expensive piece on a very good team, but most advanced metrics suggest he's not worth the price. The 26-year-old forward has a unique blend of size and athelticism that won't be easy to replace, but he's also owed roughly $37 million over the final two years years of contract. There isn't much evidence that Gay makes the Grizzlies markedly better when he's on the floor -- at least not according to adjusted plus-minus stats and other efficiency metrics -- so the money could be spent in different ways.

Here's what Hollins had to say about analytics as used by teams that 'pigeonhole' players:

"Analytics has a place. It can't be the be all end all. I'm still trying to figure out when the Oakland Athletics won a championship with all the analytics they have. It takes talent. We had a guy a few years ago that was sending me emails about different lineup combinations, and he was saying, 'this lineup should be on the court a lot more because they're the most effective.' So, then you coach that lineup and keep them on the floor for 40 minutes. I'm going to stay with the lineups that I have on the floor. No matter what anyone wants to say, there are players that get it done in the last six minutes, they're players that do it in the first quarter. When it comes down to big shots, there's only a few guys that will take those shots, want to take those shots, have the bravery and courage to take them. Because there's a lot of criticism when you miss a shot. You have to be mentally tough and courageous to take those shots at the end of the game."

"So somebody with crazy stats all through the course of the game, in our situation, I try to go to the guy who has the ability to get us the best possible shot to win the game and make it. Guys can shoot the ball, but they might not be able to get the best shot."

"You look at Kobe [Bryant]. Kobe is able to get the best possible shot. They don't go to Pau [Gasol]. They don't go to Metta [World Peace]. They probably won't even go to Steve Nash. They're going to Kobe Bryant. He's proven it time after time."

"I just think we get caught up in the stats. There are some guys that contribute so much that the stats don't even talk about. A guy running the court, filling the lane 100% of the time is better than having a guy that's a little more talented that fills the lane 40 percent of the time. That guy filling the lane 100 percent of the time is going to create a shot for somebody else."

"There's a lot to be said about stats, but there's a lot to be said about heart, toughness, courage and bravery to go in the big moment."

Hollinger and Hollins may sit down and have an interesting talk over the next few weeks, especially if Rudy Gay is traded before the Feb. 21 trade deadline.

^I was gunna post that top part where he talks about Rudy and advanced stats.

And it's a good point about the Grizz play style, they play inside out. He's not use correctly imo.

And PER is fine when it's just one of many factors to evaluate a player. But to sum up a player's performance into a single number is ludicrous.

On one hand, I like the Grizz and I hope Hollins wins out on this.

On the other, I would like to see this stats obsessed culture fall flat on its face with these theories.

As said, it has its place, but to live and die by it is totally crazy. What stat records Rudy Gay's length, speed and quickness which bothers shots, makes guys catch the ball a little further out..which stat records Gay's constant threat of a lob pass keeping the defence for collapsing on Gasol's mid post passing angle?

Cost cutting? Say goodbye to winning.

Hiring Hollinger was the weirdest move. Not because who he is, but who the Grizz are.

They have an old school coach with a play style which is very much old school. Inside out, two genuine big man, a passing point and two wing slashers.

Old school team, old school methods...then they go and add modern analytics to the mix. Odd.

Rudy Gay to Toronto, please make it happen.

We can offer the best deal.

I know Ed Davis has been playing great latly he has a rookie contract and also Jose expiring contract.

I think Memphis would ask for Ross, no?

Maybe not; they want a SF thats cheap and can still help them compete this season. I think DeRozan signed a new contract or he would've been interesting for Memphis(maybe not with PER-man there).

I think the Nets would have a good deal to offer. I'm not sure what Wallace is making but if it saves the Grizz money. Wallace + a 2nd rounder or something for Rudy.

Nets: get an additional scorer to take the load off, downgrade defensively but still solid.

Grizz: get a SF that can help them contend this season, and save cap space.

If Hollinger didn't hate Jeff Green, the Celtics could make a decent offer. Something like Green and Terry/Lee for Rudy.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130116/SPORTS0102/301160430#ixzz2IAs9KR8r

Prime example of PER being overblown right here.

From "risk" and "project" to "greatest teenager of all time"?

That's what ESPN is projecting for Pistons rookie Andre Drummond, who won't turn 20 until August.

Using the popular metric system PER (Player Efficiency Rating), Drummond's PER of 21.9, if it keeps up, will be the highest for any teenager in NBA history. Higher than MVP's LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, as well as Carmelo Anthony and Tracy McGrady."

Drummonds going to be great, but come on. Better than a rookie LeBron, Kobe, Melo? No.

silly, i would not trade green, terry for rudy....lee however...need to be gone

Why would the Griz was Calderon? They have Conely and Bayless already.

Anyway, there is no offer the Grizz are going to get of true value.

dmize wrote:http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130116/SPORTS0102/301160430#ixzz2IAs9KR8r

Prime example of PER being overblown right here.

From "risk" and "project" to "greatest teenager of all time"?

That's what ESPN is projecting for Pistons rookie Andre Drummond, who won't turn 20 until August.

Using the popular metric system PER (Player Efficiency Rating), Drummond's PER of 21.9, if it keeps up, will be the highest for any teenager in NBA history. Higher than MVP's LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, as well as Carmelo Anthony and Tracy McGrady."

Drummonds going to be great, but come on. Better than a rookie LeBron, Kobe, Melo? No.

Just trying to hype the guy to a level he cannot reach.

Celtics trailing at half time to the Hornets at home. Offense has sucked, no one can hit shots. And Jason Terry has been mediocre all season, but he's really been struggling lately.

The Franchise wrote:Why would the Griz was Calderon? They have Conely and Bayless already.

Anyway, there is no offer the Grizz are going to get of true value.

Expiring contract, and I think they would make him a deal and wave him, but dont see it happening.

The Chosen One youngest to 20 000 points AND he also hit the 5000 assist mark

dmize wrote:Celtics trailing at half time to the Hornets at home. Offense has sucked, no one can hit shots. And Jason Terry has been mediocre all season, but he's really been struggling lately.

chill we didnt really play with all our heart. Aside from that terrific start ofc

vizkosity wrote:

dmize wrote:Celtics trailing at half time to the Hornets at home. Offense has sucked, no one can hit shots. And Jason Terry has been mediocre all season, but he's really been struggling lately.

chill we didnt really play with all our heart. Aside from that terrific start ofc

The Hornets were on the 2nd of a back to back and playing on the road. Aminu getting 18 and 9 there's no excuse for that loss, embarassing.

Ross along with White and Green would make for a great Dunk Contest.

NBA in London... Knicks vs Pistons is starting now on NBAtv