Re: Norwich 1 - 0 Some team playing in red and white that was apparently Arsenal FC

by Jay29 Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:53 am

You guys must understand how poor top teams really look after the international break especially Arsenal.

Except Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea all managed to win today despite having just as many players out on international duty. It's not an excuse for the level of performance.

I still do not know why in the world raw and undeveloped Ramsey continues to play considering he disappears when Arsenal are under pressure along with his awful positioning and decision making subduing Arteta of his influence.

He plays because Diaby is injured and Wilshere has only just come back. The alternatives at the moment are more raw and undeveloped players.

Why in the world is Podolski playing isolated on the left when he is better in a free role SS or at least a False 9?

Because we only play with one striking role that he can't play.

Unsurprisingly Jay continues to be critical of Mannone. How in the world can he be blamed for that rocket of a shot and unpredictable trajectory? Maybe if Mertesacker wasn't slower then Clarence Seedorf he would have at least cleared it. Chesney continues to be safe from criticism despite all his blunders, complete lack of command and pathetic distribution.

I didn't criticise Mannone for this game specifically. I've always maintained that he's an average keeper at best.

In any case, the shot wasn't so unpredictable that he couldn't palm the ball to the sides instead of into the centre of the penalty area. That's basic goalkeeping and it's not the first time he's done it.

Moreover, you can't just shift the blame to Mertesacker. The team did absolutely nothing to close down Tettey to begin with, then Mannone made a mess out of saving it.

Also, Szczesny definitely does not escape criticism and he certainly does not lack comand. That's completely wide of the mark.

Norwich had to have one of their occasional minnow spirited performances as given their time and resource during the international break, they well took advantage of the situation.

It really wasn't that good a performance from Norwich. We were absolute crap yet they had less attempts on goal than we did and they spent most of the game sitting back and soaking up our crappy build-up play.

by Arquitecto Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:14 am

Except Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea all managed to win today despite having just as many players out on international duty. It's not an excuse for the level of performance.

United looked poor, sluggish, and out of form against Stoke as the scoreline was flattering due to the front line dynamo of RvP-Rooney. City? I assume you didn't watch the game considering 80th minute in game changes changed their fortune after a pathetic 70 mins vs West Brom. Chelsea? Mata being their lynchpin and saviour in midfield doesn't reflect on a disjointed and in cohesive Chelsea vs an equally disorganized Tottenham.

My point only was to remind that things aren't as bad as the thread mood reflects as post break losses are common in big teams. English teams aren't just the only one.

He plays because Diaby is injured and Wilshere has only just come back. The alternatives at the moment are more raw and undeveloped players.

Common rule is NOT stick a player who will not suit a system just because the others are injured. I wouldn't expect a change of formation but playing a defensive minded and more refined Coquelin (then Ramsey) wouldn't hurt since he would screen the defence and provide a holding alternative rather then Ramsey with his clueless role and Arteta in his over-saturated and burdened role. How about Chamberlain who has found multiple game success in a central role partnering Arteta where the former actually positions himself to compress the formation in defence. Ramsey isn't out of form, he just isn't developed enough for this formation and system. The alternatives named are superior choices for his diluted role.

Because we only play with one striking role that he can't play.

Of course. I know that. Yet if you are putting a player who is proven to be a square peg in a round hole on the left, you either change certain dynamics to fit him in, or..bench him. I've seen Poldi isolated enough on the left.

I didn't criticise Mannone for this game specifically. I've always maintained that he's an average keeper at best.

In any case, the shot wasn't so unpredictable that he couldn't palm the ball to the sides instead of into the centre of the penalty area. That's basic goalkeeping and it's not the first time he's done it.

Moreover, you can't just shift the blame to Mertesacker. The team did absolutely nothing to close down Tettey to begin with, then Mannone made a mess out of saving it.

Also, Szczesny definitely does not escape criticism and he certainly does not lack comand. That's completely wide of the mark.

Which is why I remark on your continuation of criticism on Mannone considering he has been commendable in many of his performances.

The shot was indeed unpredictable as don't confuse the low velocity for its unpredictable trajectory. He should have caught it yet it wasn't exactly a blunder. Not blaming Merte yet since Per is the one who left a gap for the shot and was to slow to react on Mannone's fumble, its not like blame should be centred on one individual.

Szczesny is many things yet I cannot agree that he possesses the command needed for the back line. Maybe in comparison to the meek and timid Almunia and Fabianski yet his command and authority has been severely lacking as its easy to see this even from a pure visual standpoint.

It really wasn't that good a performance from Norwich. We were absolute crap yet they had less attempts on goal than we did and they spent most of the game sitting back and soaking up our crappy build-up play.

Never said they were great but going by their recent standard and performance, this match-up completed their objective in closing the game after a goal. Their ability to keep the defence compact along with their link to the midfield to pressure Arsenal was near immaculate. Arsenal obviously didn't anticipate such a performance from such a poor side as I also count it down to the team mentality going awry after the goal. Liverpool possesses a very similar problem.

by Jay29 Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:29 am

United looked poor, sluggish, and out of form against Stoke as the scoreline was flattering due to the front line dynamo of RvP-Rooney. City? I assume you didn't watch the game considering 80th minute in game changes changed their fortune after a pathetic 70 mins vs West Brom. Chelsea? Mata being their lynchpin and saviour in midfield doesn't reflect on a disjointed and in cohesive Chelsea vs an equally disorganized Tottenham.

My point only was to remind that things aren't as bad as the thread mood reflects as post break losses are common in big teams. English teams aren't just the only one.

Yet they all managed to win, even if their performances were below usual standards. Their key players turned up and produced despite the international break.

Meanwhile, none of our players bother to turn up and we lose to one of the worst sides in the league.

You can understand why our mood is not good, and why none of us consider the break as a valid excuse.

Common rule is NOT stick a player who will not suit a system just because the others are injured. I wouldn't expect a change of formation but playing a defensive minded and more refined Coquelin (then Ramsey) wouldn't hurt since he would screen the defence and provide a holding alternative rather then Ramsey with his clueless role and Arteta in his over-saturated and burdened role. How about Chamberlain who has found multiple game success in a central role partnering Arteta where the former actually positions himself to compress the formation in defence. Ramsey isn't out of form, he just isn't developed enough for this formation and system. The alternatives named are superior choices for his diluted role.

Coquelin is even more underdeveloped than Ramsey is and his form at the moment really isn't much better, either. Neither is Chamberlain's. I really can't see how either are superior choices at this stage.

In any case, I consider this is a non-issue since the midfield was not the problem and hasn't been a problem this season - at least, not as much a problem as it was last season.

Which is why I remark on your continuation of criticism on Mannone considering he has been commendable in many of his performances.

Commendable in that he hasn't been a completely and total disaster like many were expecting. That's just the bare minimum.

by Arquitecto Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:39 am

Yet they all managed to win, even if their performances were below usual standards. Their key players turned up and produced despite the international break.

Meanwhile, none of our players bother to turn up and we lose to one of the worst sides in the league.

You can understand why our mood is not good, and why none of us consider the break as a valid excuse.

Of course I can understand. I am in no way criticizing the mood of the section yet only trying to bring a certain degree of positivity as I usually try to bring to this section. But you also forget how inexperienced this Arsenal side are in such precarious situations compared to Chelsea, City and United. This point of mine wasn't meant to be in such scrutiny.

Coquelin is even more underdeveloped than Ramsey is and his form at the moment really isn't much better, either. Neither is Chamberlain's. I really can't see how either are superior choices at this stage.

In any case, I consider this is a non-issue since the midfield was not the problem and hasn't been a problem this season - at least, not as much a problem as it was last season.

I cannot agree about Coq, Jay considering I've felt he has shown greater maturity and finesse in decision/positioning so far then Ramsey has shown in their young careers. Coquelin has only impressed me in his midfield holding role as he would compliment the vital Arteta while Ramsey tactically is a headache in this set-up. Chamberlain after his Milan and couple of performances against English teams last year in the midfield convinced me enough to try him out a little more in the midfield especially when Ramsey hasn't been working for the past 3-4 games in this same exact role.

Commendable in that he hasn't been a completely and total disaster like many were expecting. That's just the bare minimum.

You know how much I respect you opinions yet this one will have to wait it our until Mannone cements himself as a long term player as only then my liking for Mannone will come into fruition when he further develops well enough.

by El Gunner Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:54 am

RealGunner wrote:I still kinda believe in him. He was trying to do something today. The only reason he doesn't start is because of his poor work rate. Otherwise he is twice the player gervinho is imo

agreed...

Though, RG if I remember right. You were one of those who were so EXCITED when we signed Gerv. I always doubted that signing.

by El Gunner Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:59 am

highburied wrote:Pathetic.

Wenger and his rotation system barely works.

How many times this season we have seen different faces in central midfield?

Trying to get rid of defensive midfielder? Good luck with that in premier league.

Our CMs were miles from attack and some cases defence. Ramsey and ArtetA dont have that charisma to boss the midfield.

Why not start Coq or Frim? Both need experience but both have plenty of potential. That way, Cazorla have freedom and Arteta has more space to switch.

Today was shameful and not excusable.

Lazy Bunch.

lol, couldn't help but notice your warning level. Walking on thin ice, eh mate...

by LeBéninois Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:05 pm

highburied wrote:Pathetic.

Wenger and his rotation system barely works.

How many times this season we have seen different faces in central midfield?

Trying to get rid of defensive midfielder? Good luck with that in premier league.

Our CMs were miles from attack and some cases defence. Ramsey and ArtetA dont have that charisma to boss the midfield.

Why not start Coq or Frim? Both need experience but both have plenty of potential. That way, Cazorla have freedom and Arteta has more space to switch.

Today was shameful and not excusable.

Lazy Bunch.

If Wenger was starting Frimpong and even Coquelin i'm pretty sure that you'd have criticised him .

I was against the selling of Song but Many of us here said it was not a bad move. Pros : he wasn't that good defensively and was roaming too much upfront.

We are trusting Ramsey but the guy is not quality enough : Sad to say that but we are wasting so much time in this guy : At best he'll trun out to be a good player at 29-30 Shocked

you look at our mid and you just notice that he IS THE MOST EXPERIENCED ARSENAL PLAYER. All our mid are quite news players , the guy is there for a while and look ike a kid sometimes.

Santi Carzola is going to fade away sometimes , like D.Silva

Podolski , i hope he'll get back on track and even if Gervinho is so shat sometimes , well he creates something. When he'll be gone at AFCON he'll be missed

by Emaharg Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:54 pm

Ramsey is not a deeplying midfielder.
He always is bad when deep but when further forward looks much better.

by Sri Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Emaharg wrote:Ramsey is not a deeplying midfielder.
He always is bad when deep but when further forward looks much better.

He was playing deeper behind Fabregas before he got injured iirc..

by SamuelJayC Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:54 pm

Some thoughts, then:

* Ramsey was extremely average, and despite good displays at West Ham & Man City this season, he needs to improve big time if he is to be good enough for Arsenal football club. Talk of the injury doesn't wash anymore. If he doesn't improve, he has to leave, just like Eduardo had to.

* Mannone has to be one of our worst ever keepers. His game-to-error ratio has to be quite high. Who can forget in 09/10 when his errors against West Ham (2-2) and Birmingham (3-1 win) were awful. Will play well every now and then (Fulham motm display in 09 comes to mind) but is not good enough for us. He is our THIRD choice however, so you can't expect Buffon as a no.3 I guess. Please return Szczesny!

(More points later).

by urbaNRoots Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:49 pm

It's funny how Wenger finally found a position where Gervinho actually plays good but he keeps playing him on the wing. Same for Ramsey... play him a bit further up the pitch, he's not a CM and will never be - just like Ox.

Also Podolski is being most of the time inexistent unless he scores/assists his overall performances are pretty average.

Whenever only one of Gervinho/Giroud have started we got a result but whenever they both played we didn't. That's a clue for Wenger right? Hope Wenger starts to realize some things I mentioned and continues to play the team he used against Liverpool, Chelsea, City etc.

It's not like he doesn't have choices. Wenger keeps Coquelin on the bench but starts Ramsey at a position where he's being completely clueless, you can't blame the player himself for that. The manager has to find a position where the player excells and he DID. Gervinho as a false 9 or whatever that role is and Ramsey further up the pitch. Why not use it then? scratch

Wenger has the choices but is completely failing to use them properly.

by sportsczy Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:51 pm

i think it comes down to the loss of Diaby and Song. There isn't anyone to patrol that area and win Arsenal duels. In games where we struggle technically, still maintaining physical impact is important. That's how the top teams are able to win these games regardless of form.

Other issue is that nobody knows how to make a decent cross, which makes Giroud useless.

I don't like the fact that he doesn't win his aerial duels. But admittedly, defenders are allowed to rape a player in the air in the EPL. He needs to adjust to that. But he'll get there.

He came on against Spain NT and dominated Ramos for the 10 mins he played. Of course, he had Ribery making crosses and Ribery knows exactly how someone like Giroud moves since he has been playing with Gomez for years.

by DuringTheWar Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:13 pm

We have to get used to awful performances now and then, as far as im concerened we have too many average players. We have maybe 4/5 real quality players, when most of them are fit and on form they will drag the level of the team up and make the likes of ramsey, gervinho, santos, walcott ect look better. But when some of them are injured or out of form, the players i mentioned are going to be utterly useless.

This team hinges on cazorla, wilshere, diaby, and arteta playing well. There was no wilshere and diaby, cazorla was a bit off his game with the international break, and arteta i dunno, he werent at his best either. So it was kind of easy for norwich to suppress cazorla and we didnt have anyone else to lift the team. Then the international break reduced the level of the average players even further.

Dont know about podolski, i heard he is playing with injury so i wont go there

Mannone is poor, you have to admit it, a keeper like that is going to lose a lot of points eventually. Szczesny did makes mistakes but imo nearly all his mistakes were related to injury, he aint perfect but is quality imo

We NEED to buy a forward in january, someone that is good enough recieve the ball under pressure and play nice and composed football. Our forward line at the moment is turnover machine, everything good about us comes from our midfield and when that isnt at at least 80% you can forget it

by juventus101 Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:57 pm

Podolski fades out of games because he is not a winger. Ive said this since the start. He is a second striker, played best next to a target man, like his days up top with Klose for Germany in the past. Also for Koln when he was played with Novakovic. I guess the wing is the best place to put him though in a 4231 with Cazorla being more creative so holding down that CAM spot.

by RealGunner Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:04 pm

Good points all 3 of you

we attempt 16 crosses against norwich. 1 of them was successful Laughing

We couldn't dominate them in any way apart from the useless possession which they were happy to let us do. They stopped cazorla ( tettey was brilliant there) and when we turned to crossing, it was pretty atrocious.

Podolski has been playing with an ankle knock atm, that is why he always gets subbed around 60 minutes. Think we need to sort that out.

by Sri Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:38 am

RealGunner wrote:
Podolski has been playing with an ankle knock atm, that is why he always gets subbed around 60 minutes. Think we need to sort that out.

Glad someone finally made the point here. Thank you RG.

by VendettaRed07 Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:33 am

We rely too much on Cazorla. If he gets shut down by a defense we have no attack what so ever. Gervinho, Podolski, and Giroud can't do anything to break down a defense by themselves. All good finishers, but we are playing with 3 strikers and playing 2 as wingers.

We desperately need both Walcott and Wilshere.

Give Walcott 100k. We are so much worse without him.

by abhinav14 Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:58 am

Walcott vs an average Norwich defence would have been really useful. If we have Jack and/or Diaby on the pitch with Cazorla, we wouldn't need to rely on one man only.

srigooner wrote:
RealGunner wrote:
Podolski has been playing with an ankle knock atm, that is why he always gets subbed around 60 minutes. Think we need to sort that out.

Glad someone finally made the point here. Thank you RG.

That might be true but IMO, Podolski isn't the type of player to create something out of nothing, if the team is playing badly, Poldi will most probably be playing badly as well and AW is right to sub him off at those times. It's the same case with Germany whenever they do badly [i.e. against Italy]

by Sri Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:07 am

abhinav14 wrote:Walcott vs an average Norwich defence would have been really useful. If we have Jack and/or Diaby on the pitch with Cazorla, we wouldn't need to rely on one man only.
srigooner wrote:
RealGunner wrote:
Podolski has been playing with an ankle knock atm, that is why he always gets subbed around 60 minutes. Think we need to sort that out.

Glad someone finally made the point here. Thank you RG.

That might be true but IMO, Podolski isn't the type of player to create something out of nothing, if the team is playing badly, Poldi will most probably be playing badly as well and AW is right to sub him off at those times. It's the same case with Germany whenever they do badly [i.e. against Italy]

I like how he was combining with Cazorla at the start, but now teams have had a chance to study that. And if the two don't evolve their games, then its easy to halt that.

Poldi is by no means a creative force. He is a hard worker with a brilliant brilliant left foot. That makes him a threat off the flank coming in. He matches that with good link up play, but is not an out and out striker like Chamakh or Giroud are.

Bar Cazorla, Gervinho is the only player whose movement can cause some spaces and opening up of defences. But he is again one dimensional in a way that its predictable that he will try to dribble through rather than pass.

Now here lies the problem. Compare with previous seasons when we had Theo on one wing and a creative player coming in a la French C*nt or Arshavin. This lop-sided attack allowed us to be more creative. The lop-sidedness could be switched with the wide men changing flanks (although we saw more of that only after Gerv came in).

by RealGunner Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:15 am

abhinav14 wrote:

That might be true but IMO, Podolski isn't the type of player to create something out of nothing, if the team is playing badly, Poldi will most probably be playing badly as well and AW is right to sub him off at those times. It's the same case with Germany whenever they do badly [i.e. against Italy]

That's a good point and what i mentioned when we signed him as well. He isn't a creative genius who we have to put on for the whole game in order to create a chance out of nothing. His best attribute is finishing and running in behind, hence if the defence is too deep or we are lacking creativity, he becomes not as useful. But saying that, he can always pop up with a screamer as he nearly did against norwich early on.

by Highburied Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:10 pm

Wenger should change some tactics upfront and let Bould do the magic behind.

What our wingers are doing, its fullbacks' job.

All depends on the opposition.

If they defend deep and narrow, then our wingers should cut inside and play one twos with Cazorla and Giroud.

It didnt happen or it happened rarely...

Giroud is doing a good job with his work rate but his co forwards are so far from him, so all his work gone to toilet.

Cazorla was isolated and i cant believe how easy opponents are making him useless, thanks to Wenger failing to instruct a protection for him.

Ramsey imo is natural deep lying playmaker but with right players around and right instructions.

I have a feeling Wenger tells our players some of his strange ideas that in the end our players go on the field without understanding the tactics.

We have individual quality but flop of the match was Arsene Wenger...again.

by juventus101 Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:15 pm

Podolski is actually very creative and can create something out of nothing when played on his natural SS position and when healthy, both of which is not happening at the moment. If you watched him for Koln the previous seasons, hes very creative. He played as a SS thst dropped deep to create as well and did excellent. Obviously hes not as creative as Cazorla but saying hes just a striker that cant create anything is way wrong.

by Raptorgunner Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:46 pm

Norwich had a game plan to beat Arsenal, says Holt

Holt said: “We looked at a few things we did last year. We ruffled them up a bit, got crosses in and worked them.

“We knew we could that again today. Obviously they have [Per] Mertesacker and lads who can head the ball, but if you put it in the right areas they can’t get to it and I thought we were good for the win.

“Wes [Hoolahan] took up some unbelievable positions when the ball was coming in, and when you’ve got someone who is prepared to get in behind you in works well.

“We had a game plan, [and we] worked on it all week. We knew Arsenal could come here with an attacking threat.

“We worked in the week with the bodies we’ve got, obviously some were away on international duty, but the good thing for us is we have a great squad who can train all week and do it correctly.

“You’ve just got to look at the way we attacked down there [at the Emirates], the way we defended as a unit and the way we worked. If you look at the game down there last year we stretched them a lot, moved them around and when we lost the ball we re-grouped quickly.

“We took the same beliefs into today, worked with the manager about keeping our shape and filling in for people out of position and it worked.”

by Raptorgunner Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:49 pm

We need a striker or we will have many more games like this. In the past 8 games we have played only 2 games were convincing the rest were close to this game.

Diaby is surly missed, he can dominate the midfield and score goals.

by Raptorgunner Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:29 pm

After a weekend of being royally screwed by Canaries, I'm feeling great empathy with this guy today. Norwich 1 - 0 Some team playing in red and white that was apparently Arsenal FC - Page 3 A5zcwQ8CQAAv21d

Norwich 1 - 0 Some team playing in red and white that was apparently Arsenal FC - Page 3 A5zcwQ8CQAAv21d

From Twitter lol.

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