Re: The sheer brilliance of Paul Scholes

by Vibe Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:06 am

I don't think I could have even imagined seeing someone rate Beckham over Scholes.

Beckham was a specialist, he was good at one thing and he was brilliant at it. But that is where it stops. He was average at everything else.

Scholes was simply leagues above and I don't think much elaboration is needed there. Scholes is in the sharpest end of any GOAT midfielder list, Beckham, I don't know if I would rank him top 50.

by El Gunner Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:50 am

^^ came across these lists recently, and i thought most of the rankings were fairly accurate... they have Scholes 8th amongst 21st century central midfielders:
https://iconicfootball.weebly.com/top-30-central-midfielders-of-the-21st-century.html

more lists:
https://iconicfootball.weebly.com/21st-century.html

by Vibe Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:00 am

A list that doesn't contain Iniesta but contains Pedri?

Get the fuck out of here LG.

by titosantill Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:11 am

Becks isn't a CM, so there that goes. As a rw in his era, only figo legit has him beat. Scholes played what 20 years? And in all that time never got a united player of the year award? If it was just a popularity deal beckham or cristiano should have had it every year. Since that final, I just noticed the legend of scholes has grown tremendously. We bash crossing but it's a direct path to a goal and not everyone does it as effectively. Why make 60 passes for one goal? When u can do that in one cross or one long pass?

by El Gunner Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:19 am

Vibe wrote:A list that doesn't contain Iniesta but contains Pedri?

Get the fuck out of here LG.

https://iconicfootball.weebly.com/top-40-attacking-midfielders-of-the-21st-century.html

by Vibe Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:58 am

titosantill wrote:Becks isn't a CM, so there that goes. As a rw in his era, only figo legit has him beat. Scholes played what 20 years? And in all that time never got a united player of the year award? If it was just a popularity deal beckham or cristiano should have had it every year. Since that final, I just noticed the legend of scholes has grown tremendously. We bash crossing but it's a direct path to a goal and not everyone does it as effectively. Why make 60 passes for one goal? When u can do that in one cross or one long pass?

How is that even an argument, winning or not winning the player of the year award? That is just poor reasoning bro.

by guest_07 Tue Jun 25, 2024 11:10 am

El Gunner wrote:
Vibe wrote:A list that doesn't contain Iniesta but contains Pedri?

Get the fuck out of here LG.

https://iconicfootball.weebly.com/top-40-attacking-midfielders-of-the-21st-century.html

I want to ignore this list
after seeing Riquelme ranked at number 11.

Smile

by titosantill Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:06 pm

Vibe wrote:
titosantill wrote:Becks isn't a CM, so there that goes. As a rw in his era, only figo legit has him beat. Scholes played what 20 years? And in all that time never got a united player of the year award? If it was just a popularity deal beckham or cristiano should have had it every year. Since that final, I just noticed the legend of scholes has grown tremendously. We bash crossing but it's a direct path to a goal and not everyone does it as effectively. Why make 60 passes for one goal? When u can do that in one cross or one long pass?

How is that even an argument, winning or not winning the player of the year award? That is just poor reasoning bro.

When a player is as great as how all these paul scholes quotes mention him. And also how the fans mention him. I would think that when he was active the individual honors should match the quotes. Unless he is one of the "player x is so good, I'm surprised he isn't valued enough" type players.

And for me when players are described like that, they are great, fantastic, but not the elite. Plus he played 20 years, there's more than enough time to get that recognition while playing. Unless other players were just better or more impactful. Becks, maybe Roy keane even (albeit as a defensive destroyer....who could lose his head at times).

I mean okay forget utd player of the season. Pfa team of the season which is handled by peers who wax lyrical about him, I don't think he's ever been in up to say 5 times in a 20 yr spab. I'm not saying he is crap. He was good and quite consistent. I just simply feel he wasn't the best player on his teams but since that final against barca he's talked about like he is the goat.

There were other midfielders and they're not lauded like the michael jordan of midfielders.

by El Gunner Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:27 pm

let's get it clear, tito, Scholes isn't Pirlo or Xavi tier, but he is just a level below

i think he has rightfully gotten a lot of legacy hype and talk after his career coz people believe he didn't get enough hype during his career, and i believe that was mostly down to playing with other star players with more personality/controversy that took the shine away from him

and Keane was more than a hothead and defensive destroyer

by Vibe Tue Jun 25, 2024 1:50 pm

titosantill wrote:
Vibe wrote:
titosantill wrote:Becks isn't a CM, so there that goes. As a rw in his era, only figo legit has him beat. Scholes played what 20 years? And in all that time never got a united player of the year award? If it was just a popularity deal beckham or cristiano should have had it every year. Since that final, I just noticed the legend of scholes has grown tremendously. We bash crossing but it's a direct path to a goal and not everyone does it as effectively. Why make 60 passes for one goal? When u can do that in one cross or one long pass?

How is that even an argument, winning or not winning the player of the year award? That is just poor reasoning bro.

When a player is as great as how all these paul scholes quotes mention him. And also how the fans mention him. I would think that when he was active the individual honors should match the quotes. Unless he is one of the "player x is so good, I'm surprised he isn't valued enough" type players.

And for me when players are described like that, they are great, fantastic, but not the elite. Plus he played 20 years, there's more than enough time to get that recognition while playing. Unless other players were just better or more impactful. Becks, maybe Roy keane even (albeit as a defensive destroyer....who could lose his head at times).

I mean okay forget utd player of the season. Pfa team of the season which is handled by peers who wax lyrical about him, I don't think he's ever been in up to say 5 times in a 20 yr spab. I'm not saying he is crap. He was good and quite consistent. I just simply feel he wasn't the best player on his teams but since that final against barca he's talked about like he is the goat.

There were other midfielders and they're not lauded like the michael jordan of midfielders.

I think your opinion is way too influenced by individual awards. Most of them have no significant merit.

A simple eye test tells that Scholes was A tier and the number of player of the year or team of the years awards couldn't be less relevant to me.

It is hard for me to take anyone who thinks Beckham was better than Scholes seriously.

I already held Scholes in the highest regard, even more now that I was reminded by watching that MUFC TV episode.

by titosantill Tue Jun 25, 2024 2:38 pm

El Gunner wrote:let's get it clear, tito, Scholes isn't Pirlo or Xavi tier, but he is just a level below

i think he has rightfully gotten a lot of legacy hype and talk after his career coz people believe he didn't get enough hype during his career, and i believe that was mostly down to playing with other star players with more personality/controversy that took the shine away from him

and Keane was more than a hothead and defensive destroyer

I absolutely agree with this. In fact this pretty much sums up my whole argument. I'm not saying he is garbage, just assessing how there's a narrative shift not just with him but with Beckham. A guy creating assists out of nothing for fun, but because he doesn't do a bunch of one touch passing, even professionals consider him a part time Hollywood actor. People say Becks is one dimensional, maybe so. But scholes wasn't exactly ronaldinho either. Excellent passer another an excellent crosser (who could pass and hit set pieces too).

by Clutch Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:02 pm

He reminds me of what NBA players talk of Jrue holiday. Everyone says he's the most underrated player and should be winning DPOY every season but the media never really talks about him. Sometimes people over sell to make there point and I think that's what's going on with Scholes. Players who played with or against him have a higher opinion of him than the media and most fans is what I interpret when I see a Paul Scholes quote. I personally never viewed him like what Xavi says but I acknowledge he's a great player

by Vibe Tue Jun 25, 2024 6:27 pm

titosantill wrote:
El Gunner wrote:let's get it clear, tito, Scholes isn't Pirlo or Xavi tier, but he is just a level below

i think he has rightfully gotten a lot of legacy hype and talk after his career coz people believe he didn't get enough hype during his career, and i believe that was mostly down to playing with other star players with more personality/controversy that took the shine away from him

and Keane was more than a hothead and defensive destroyer

I absolutely agree with this. In fact this pretty much sums up my whole argument. I'm not saying he is garbage, just assessing how there's a narrative shift not just with him but with Beckham. A guy creating assists out of nothing for fun, but because he doesn't do a bunch of one touch passing, even professionals consider him a part time Hollywood actor. People say Becks is one dimensional, maybe so. But scholes wasn't exactly ronaldinho either. Excellent passer another an excellent crosser (who could pass and hit set pieces too).

That is exactly why your argument fails. Scholes was not good at one thing, he was good at everything.

He could make the midfield tick from deep, he could play in the hole and make runs into the box and score goals, he could play as a box to box mid, he could score long rangers, he could score tap ins, he could score headers, he could make 100 meter passes... Labeling Scholes an excellent passer in a manner that Beckham is an excellent crosser coouldn't be further away from the truth.

by titosantill Tue Jun 25, 2024 6:56 pm

He could control the midfield from deep excellent. The other things, he was good at, some of them debatable but I'll concede. Becks could control the game with his long passes, could cross, great at set pieces (which scholes wasnt), could score from long range as well, not just shots with power but chips and finesse shots, impacted the game with direct assists.

He didn't need to score tap ins or headers because he was the one serving the crosses (funny because his first goal at madrid I think was a header off a ronaldo (of all people lol) cross. I think it was a cup game against mallorca...I wanted us to sign eto'o badly).

I've always looked at it as, yes you can do more. But is it in your primary role? If becks was running into the box for headers and tap ins, who is expected to provide him the service?

When I mention individual laurels, it's in the context of the praise a player gets. If I never saw the game and I heard that type of praise I would think "hey maybe every year in this player's prime he was the standard of measurment". He may not have Ballon dors but I expect these same players (since fans and journalists know nothing) will acknowledge that in pfa team of the season lists.

And we can't narrow it down to its because he doesn't talk. There are non controversial players who get nominated for these things. Pirlo isn't the loudest guy in the room but his performance was worthy of acknowledgements in real time. Maybe scholes just played with teammates who were better than him. That's not a knock....but we can't just change history. United were synonymous with the crossing game and that was primarily becks. Same way arsenal were synonymous with a quick passing game

by Vibe Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:29 am

Let's agree to disagree then, I can hardly agree with a single point.

To me, there is not even an alternate universe where Beckham is a better player than Scholes and I while I respect Beckham I think you should get a diarrhea with the force of a thousand suns while on a dinner date for claiming such blasphemy.

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