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I don't think Isco has performed any where a good as Ozil this season, the few Malaga matches I've watched, including the 6-2 drubbing, he was not at all better than Ozil. I don't think he'd displace him for the AM position.

Well in the games where it's mattered, Ozil has been sub par on all accounts.
He's a great player no doubt but he's either there or he's not. At times he'll start amazing and over time his game will suffer during any match.

And I agree that Isco will not displace Ozil but in those times, lets say both are on the pitch---> Isco: RW and Ozil:CAM
If Ozil does poorly who's to say any coach won't just plaster on di Maria on the right and try Isco in Ozil's role?

------------Diego Lopez--------------

Carvajal--Varane----Ramos-----Marcelo

--------------Pogba------------------

--------Verratti---Modric------------

Bale--------------------------Ronaldo

--------------Cavani

???

FalcaoPunch wrote:Well in the games where it's mattered, Ozil has been sub par on all accounts. He's a great player no doubt but he's either there or he's not. At times he'll start amazing and over time his game will suffer during any match.

That's harsh. He had fair share of contribution in games that mattered, league (even before January), CL, CDR.
If you're referring to the latest one, CL semi final and CDR final, he wasn't sub par on all accounts as you claimed, especially not relatively to how the team as whole performed. *bleep* up 1 chance vs Dortmund but created a lot as well and even got assist. Could have scored 3 times vs Atletico and I don't think he *bleep* up any of those chances, just post & great clearance/save, and once again got assist as well and could have got more. Far from 'not there' or whatever you called it.
It's easy to nitpicking only the bad thing in games we lost though, and by the same standard the 'he didn't perform when it's mattered' could be applied to Ronaldo as well.

Mr. Festim wrote:------------Diego Lopez--------------

Carvajal--Varane----Ramos-----Marcelo

--------------Pogba------------------

--------Verratti---Modric------------

Bale--------------------------Ronaldo

--------------Cavani

???

alexander mahone wrote:

FalcaoPunch wrote:Well in the games where it's mattered, Ozil has been sub par on all accounts. He's a great player no doubt but he's either there or he's not. At times he'll start amazing and over time his game will suffer during any match.

That's harsh. He had fair share of contribution in games that mattered, league (even before January), CL, CDR.
If you're referring to the latest one, CL semi final and CDR final, he wasn't sub par on all accounts as you claimed, especially not relatively to how the team as whole performed. *bleep* up 1 chance vs Dortmund but created a lot as well and even got assist. Could have scored 3 times vs Atletico and I don't think he *bleep* up any of those chances, just post & great clearance/save, and once again got assist as well and could have got more. Far from 'not there' or whatever you called it.
It's easy to nitpicking only the bad thing in games we lost though, and by the same standard the 'he didn't perform when it's mattered' could be applied to Ronaldo as well.

Ronaldo has done the same in certain big games as well.
Ozil can perform well throughout a season no doubt. I'm not saying he can't.


But in games such as Man U (both legs) and BVB (both legs) he was sub par in his role. A creator/offensive creator for us. He would be hesitant, get muscled off the ball, not pass, not shoot, or complicate things in the middle and lose possession.

It's happened to Ronaldo, Di Maria, Higuian,Benzema, Alonso, etc I'm not singleing out Ozil but since the conversation is regarding Isco who play as CAM and his potential to push Ozil aside or play alongside him

FalcaoPunch wrote:
But in games such as Man U (both legs) and BVB (both legs) he was sub par in his role. A creator/offensive creator for us. He would be hesitant, get muscled off the ball, not pass, not shoot, or complicate things in the middle and lose possession.

Well I guess sub par or not will always depend on what you're expected. I just don't consider games when one was a better performer than most the rest, did more good than bad and also quite decisive in the result as having a sub par game, at least not in all account. BVB 1st leg? Sure. Maybe also Gala 2nd leg. But don't think that's the case with Man U games and BVB 2nd leg. Sure it's not a perfect performance, there're occasions where he could or should have do better, but those random moments alone barely defined his overall performance in that matches as you're completely ignoring the good part he did in that games, which quite a lot, as if they're not existed/mattered.

In terms of consistency/performance, how would you rate this season to his previous two? Only on the individual level.

FalcaoPunch wrote:In terms of consistency/performance, how would you rate this season to his previous two? Only on the individual level.

he was great last season, but this season in some games he was asked to play wing to accommodate modric in the side, which i think hampered his ability to affect the game.

besides that he has been one of our best players since he arrived. one of the first names on the team sheet for me.

he creates that what he does, the amount of chances he makes for other is incredible. the side needs him. plus he is much better than isco, and if isco was to come he would have to settle for a place on the right or elsewhere. ozil is our roaming midfielder and he should remain as such.

FalcaoPunch wrote:In terms of consistency/performance, how would you rate this season to his previous two? Only on the individual level.

It's hard not look at last season in favor when judging everyone because we actually had a successful season, unlike this one. The whole team were out of form at the start of this season, but I think Ozil was among players who found his form sooner than the rest and played well consistent enough since around October. However unlike last season when every matches meant a lot, it's hard to appreciate good league performances after we basically lost it in December, so a fair share of his good performances probably don't mean much at the end. But to be fair Ozil has been good often enough even before we lost the league, like showed up in games when Ronaldo didn't and win the match by himself vs Valladolid, came up with important goal/assist vs Bilbao, Atletico, even Dortmund matches at group stage, etc. He had good games too in both Espanyol and Malaga matches at the end of year when we lost points in a row and buried any hope left in the league, he could have like 10 assists from many chances he created in those 2 matches but woeful finishing to convert those chances made them don't count.
He continued the good form after the winter break and played key role when eliminating Barca in CDR, not sure why you kept mentioning United and even semi final vs Dortmund. Despite it could have been better, he's our better players from those matches and bar Dortmund 1st leg he still came up with good stuff that made or could have made a difference. I think individually he's the least of our problem really.

Benz led the team in assists in every competition this year despite only playing 2600 mins and was the best by lot with 22 total.. With Ozil and Di Maria, that should never happen.

sportsczy wrote:Benz led the team in assists in every competition this year despite only playing 2600 mins and was the best by lot with 22 total.. With Ozil and Di Maria, that should never happen.

Don't know where you got that number, even according to generous transfermkt:

Benzema assist stats (20):
CL: 5
CDR: 3
League: 12
Super cup: 0

Ozil assist stats (22):
CL: 5
CDR: 3
League: 13
Super cup: 1

Di Maria assist stats (17):
CL: 4
CDR: 2
League: 11
Super cup: 0

Assist also don't count a lot of what could have been decisive passes that are failed to be converted, even eyes would tell you that Di Maria still created more chances than Benzema despite him had lower number of assists.

Where are you getting these stats from. The official ones are on realmadrid.com. Here it is:

Benzema http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/1193041476158/1202775163178/jugador/Jugador/Benzema.htm

La Liga - 11 assists
CL - 5
CDR - 3
Total = 19 (should ignore the BS ones that get him to 22 lol)

Ozil http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/1193041476158/1330012508587/jugador/Jugador/Ozil.htm

La Liga - 10 assists
CL - 4
CDR - 3
Total = 17

Those are from transfermkt which I believed you're referring the 1st time because according to transfermkt Benzema indeed had 22 assist for both Madrid and NT, only 20 for Madrid though. They use different rule but still apply the same rule to every player.

That stats still doesn't tell the whole story. Play by play guys like Ozil and I think Di Maria too still created more than him despite not always translated into score sheet. Even if you're forcing stats, maybe key passes should be checked as well:

Benzema key passes:
Legue: 1.3
CL: 1.1

Ozil Key passes:
Legue: 2.8
CL: 2.9

Di Maria key passes:
Legue: 1.4
CL: 2.5

transfermkt is bs. Complete rubbish. I should have known they would overstate everything lol. For them, you force a pk and it's an assist lol.

Anyhow, key passes is always going to be a low stat for a CF just because of where he plays and how he's used. For midfielders, it's a key stat of comparison.

This is a good stat:
minutes played
Ozil - 3458
Di Maria - 3150
Benz - 2835

It's amazing that Benz leads the team in assists when he is basically a role player with us... he doesn't play a whole lot. Imagine if he was actually a regular and featured, and he is neither. Ozil is featured and his role is to be the top assist man as is Di Maria. Neither did a very good job this year imo.

sportsczy wrote:transfermkt is bs. Complete rubbish. I should have known they would overstate everything lol. For them, you force a pk and it's an assist lol.

Not all rubbish. There are not many cases like penalty assist BS for us this season. More something like earlier this season Di Maria played few passes to Higuain which had his 1st attempt blocked but he managed to score the direct rebound from it, transfermkt still credited that goal to Di Maria's assist which is fair enough

sportsczy wrote:
Anyhow, key passes is always going to be a low stat for a CF just because of where he plays and how he's used. For midfielders, it's a key stat of comparison.

Why even bother comparing their stats in the 1st place then? You cannot only use assist stats to make a claim in favor of Benzema but ignoring key passes stats per game which gave more context of the assist stats. It's possible that one had more assists despite created less.

sportsczy wrote:Ozil is featured and his role is to be the top assist man as is Di Maria. Neither did a very good job this year imo.

In most matches both still created as much as they normally do and come up with important assists and key passes in matches like City, United, Dortmund, Gala, Atletico in final. The conversion rate of that chances let them down.

Come on. Benz being better than Ozil in assists or Di Maria would be like Ozil or Di Maria beating Benz in goals... that's how ridiculous it is. It shouldn't happen. It is a key stat when you're supposed to dominate in it for the team and a player who is the secondary setup man beats you.

The fact that the strikers are forced to set themselves up to score more than the supposed setup men shows how bad we were in the setup role this year... was our biggest weakness due to severe inconsistency of Ozil and Di Maria.

Ozil reminded me very much of Pastore this year.

Ozil didn't even had off form period too long, he's fine and consistent enough in his business after October. You're on point about Di Maria, but he's being dropped a lot too for Modric and he's not any more inconsistent than Benzema.

sportsczy wrote:It is a key stat when you're supposed to dominate in it for the team and a player who is the secondary setup man beats you.

As as as key passes is concerned, pretty sure they're still up there even ahead of the guys from Barca. Their assist stats were an understatement though, because so many weren't converted.

Benzema barely plays... i mean come on. 2800 mins in over 50 appearances? That's not even 60 mins a game on average which is awful. Higuain had the exact same problem. How do you expect anyone to find rhythm?

Ozil was invisible until January. Didn't show up until then; but he's been mostly ok since (sometimes great). Di Maria didn't show up period (other than random great games here and there).

sportsczy wrote:Benzema barely plays... i mean come on. 2800 mins in over 50 appearances? That's not even 60 mins a game on average which is awful. Higuain had the exact same problem. How do you expect anyone to find rhythm?

To be fair, neither gave reason for Mourinho to stick with one and played them week in week out.

sportsczy wrote:Ozil was invisible until January. Didn't show up until then

That's not true.

alexander mahone wrote:But to be fair Ozil has been good often enough even before we lost the league, like showed up in games when Ronaldo didn't and win the match by himself vs Valladolid, came up with important goal/assist vs Bilbao, Atletico, even Dortmund matches at group stage, etc. He had good games too in both Espanyol and Malaga matches at the end of year when we lost points in a row and buried any hope left in the league, he could have like 10 assists from many chances he created in those 2 matches but woeful finishing to convert those chances made them don't count.

half of ozil assits are from corners

oh and forget about Verratti now lol, PSG are never letting him go this summer

How would you guys feel if this was our full squad for next year?

GK: Diego Lopez, Casillas
RB: (Carvajal), Arbeloa
CB: Ramos, Varane + 2 New
LB: Marcelo, Coentrao
DM: Xabi Alonso, (Paul Pogba)
CM: Modric, (Verratti)
RW: (Gareth Bale), Di Maria
AM: Mesut Ozil, (Isco)
LW: Cristiano Ronaldo, Jese
CF: (Falcao), Benzema, Morata

Fantasy world. Pogba and Verratti are off limits. We would have to pay 50 mil for each and that's not going to happen.

[quote="sportsczy"]Fantasy world. Pogba and Verratti are off limits. We would have to pay 50 mil for each and that's not going to happen.[/quote]

It's hard to say NO to Real Madrid really...and I really don't think their price is that much. Especially Paul Pogba's price

They've already said no publicly... both Pogba and Verratti... to leaving their current clubs. It would require that Madrid pay a price that those clubs would be crazy to refuse, which would be in the 50 mil range each.