George Bush and Tony Blair are War Criminals.

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Post by kiranr Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:06 am

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/23/bush_and_blair_found_guilty_of_war_crimes_for_iraq_attack/singleton

This is quite interesting. Will it ever be possible to execute this judgement? What are your thoughts on the verdict?
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Post by Grande_Milano Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:22 am

Thats actually something epic coming. West recognising criminals its former bosses. Thats smth I bow down to u sirs. Hope that excuse for a human Sakaashvilli is next
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Post by Sushi Master Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:14 am

Lawl. I doubt they're ever going to be punished for all their actions.

But I'd so love it if they would.
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:18 am

LOL like they will ever be punished. These two were worse than Bin Laden.

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Post by Mamad Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:37 am

All American presidents are war criminals if you think about it.
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Post by RedOranje Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:33 am

Mamad wrote:All American presidents are war criminals if you think about it.
By your logic all world leaders are war criminals.
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Post by beatrixasdfghjk. Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:33 pm

RedOranje wrote:
Mamad wrote:All American presidents are war criminals if you think about it.
By your logic all world leaders are war criminals.
By your logic all people are war criminals.

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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:48 pm

RedOranje wrote:
Mamad wrote:All American presidents are war criminals if you think about it.
By your logic all world leaders are war criminals.

Essentially that is the case (even though America is only blamed for it Rolling Eyes). World leaders having a big ass military in front of them and using it just because they can and using propaganda to get the people on their side, when in fact war doesn't help anyone. But karma will strike back and teach them a lesson.

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Post by RedOranje Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:44 am

beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:
RedOranje wrote:
Mamad wrote:All American presidents are war criminals if you think about it.
By your logic all world leaders are war criminals.
By your logic all people are war criminals.
Actually, that would be an extension of HIS logic. I'm proud of you for giving it a go though! bounce
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Post by The Messiah Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:09 pm

RedOranje wrote:
Mamad wrote:All American presidents are war criminals if you think about it.
By your logic all world leaders are war criminals.

Totally agree with this, except that some are worst. Obviously the countries that have been invading sovereign nations are far more worst than the rest...
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Post by donttreadonred Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:24 am

Gentlemen... Let's look at this objectively. Depending on your point of view, nearly any military action could be taken as a "war crime" by the opposing side. Indeed, in the aftermath of an aggressive move, most nations portray the attack as a heinous crime against humanity. In all honesty, they are probably right (any action that results in the deaths of large numbers of people is difficult to justify). However, many nations have taken part in less veiled affronts to the concept of world peace than Britain and the USA in 2003.

Does anyone remember the Kellog-Briand pact. (My apologies for using the widely used, American name for it.) The signing members of the pact essentially renounced war, prohibiting war as an instrument of national policy. This all happened in 1928. Know which nations signed it? America, Japan, the UK, France and Germany. In other words, the same nations that would begin tearing the world apart a decade later. The moral of this story is that international agreements and regulations are easily created in times of peace and just as easily forgotten in times of crisis.
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Post by RedOranje Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:10 am

DTOR ruling the topic. :bow:
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Post by beatrixasdfghjk. Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:19 am

Idrisozet wrote:
RedOranje wrote:
Mamad wrote:All American presidents are war criminals if you think about it.
By your logic all world leaders are war criminals.

Totally agree with this, except that some are worse. Obviously the countries that have been invading sovereign nations are far worse than the rest...
Sorry for the intrusion Razz.

Red, I can't get made a Grammar Policeman, can I?
Life dream Sad.

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Post by donttreadonred Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:05 pm

RedOranje wrote:DTOR ruling the topic. :bow:

Is what I does. :king:

Let's just say this topic is right up my alley.
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:42 pm

Also, it really doesn't take a major in political sciences to know that war will always be part of politics, like von Clausewitz said.

It's just the extension of diplomacy by other means, or however you'd translate it.

All countries do despicaple things, if you can't see the shades of grey between the black and the white, the world will drive you batshit mental.
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Post by kiranr Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:53 pm

So what are you guys trying to say? That cases like this are impossible to judge and hence these trials are meaningless?

I still think the developed countries are shielded a lot more than the other countries. The point this tribunal is trying to make is that such double standards exist and their aim is to address that issue.

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Post by Senor Penguin Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:12 pm

Blair will plead insanity in court. Bush, on the other hand, will have to settle at chronic imbecility.

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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:36 pm

I think it's great that they've been convicted, I just don't think they'll be punished.

It's still good someone did it.
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Post by Jonathan28 Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:54 pm

Finally, someone convicted them. the International Court will look like the dummies they are if they don't take this seriously. Bush and Blair did far worse then Bin Laden, Saddam and Gaddafi combined.
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Post by donttreadonred Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:28 am

Ordinho10 wrote:Finally, someone convicted them. the International Court will look like the dummies they are if they don't take this seriously. Bush and Blair did far worse then Bin Laden, Saddam and Gaddafi combined.

Really?... Suspect

Regardless of whether you agree with Bush and Blair's decisions (for the record, I do not), this seems like a difficult conclusion to draw. At worst, Blair and Bush deceived their constituency, violated the rights of sovereign nations, destabilized the governments of the aforementioned nations, and set in motion actions that resulted in the deaths of enemy combatants and, regretfully, some civilians. These actions are certainly quite serious. However, they did not attempt genocide, advocate violence against innocents to achieve political goals, or oppress the very people they were sworn to protect among other atrocities.

I have difficulty lumping the two into the same category. I see no underlying evil in their actions, only misguided and ill-informed decisions. Once again, I do not mean to make light of the results of these ill-informed decisions. They have had dire consequences, for sure. However, you will be hard pressed to convince me that Tony Blair or George Bush are equivalent to Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi. History is rife with examples of ordinary men that have been put into extraordinary situations. Unfortunately, those men are not always able to handle the tasks set in front of them. Believe it or not, but good men are capable of causing horrible things.
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Post by Grande_Milano Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:49 am

Actually, may be not Blair, but Bush is pretty much equivalent.

Despite all good intention of fighting terrorism and for democracy, Iraq and Afghanistan are bloodbaths today, countries with little hope. Also the number of civillians dead in NATO bombings and operations with the use of illegal weaponry such as cassette bombs is dramatic, even though statistics is probably undermined in media
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Post by Guest Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:13 am

No they are not.

20 Years from now, we'll appreciate what they brought to this world.

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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:27 am

donttreadonred wrote:
Ordinho10 wrote:Finally, someone convicted them. the International Court will look like the dummies they are if they don't take this seriously. Bush and Blair did far worse then Bin Laden, Saddam and Gaddafi combined.

Really?... Suspect

Regardless of whether you agree with Bush and Blair's decisions (for the record, I do not), this seems like a difficult conclusion to draw. At worst, Blair and Bush deceived their constituency, violated the rights of sovereign nations, destabilized the governments of the aforementioned nations, and set in motion actions that resulted in the deaths of enemy combatants and, regretfully, some civilians. These actions are certainly quite serious. However, they did not attempt genocide, advocate violence against innocents to achieve political goals, or oppress the very people they were sworn to protect among other atrocities.

I have difficulty lumping the two into the same category. I see no underlying evil in their actions, only misguided and ill-informed decisions. Once again, I do not mean to make light of the results of these ill-informed decisions. They have had dire consequences, for sure. However, you will be hard pressed to convince me that Tony Blair or George Bush are equivalent to Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi. History is rife with examples of ordinary men that have been put into extraordinary situations. Unfortunately, those men are not always able to handle the tasks set in front of them. Believe it or not, but good men are capable of causing horrible things.

How do you define 'some' as?

Sepi wrote:No they are not.

No they are not.

20 Years from now, we'll appreciate what they brought to this world.

How are they not???? scratch

BTW what good did they bring that they would be appreciated in 20 years' time? At least not by the countries they invaded, I'm sure. And that's what really tells the truth of what happened other than people elsewhere being brainwashed by what the media tells them is happening.

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Post by donttreadonred Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:09 am

@english_jewel
That's a fair point. Some is a very ambiguous term. I won't sit here and pretend to quote you figures and rationals. The killing of civilians is never acceptable. However, for the sake of my argument, the intention was to describe the intended target of the actions. Bin Laden, Hussein and Gaddaffi's targets were civilian, intending to create fear to unsettle foreign powers and control domestic groups. Civilian casualties as a result of US and Nato attacks are collateral, meaning that they were not intended. The killing of civilians was never the goal of the attack. While the deaths of civilians is never irrelevant, my definition of "some" is.

To be honest, I suppose this specific aspect of the argument has a lot of bearing upon your personal moral theory. Do you believe that a person's intentions have anything to do with whether they are a good person or not. Is it simply a person's actions that matter, and their intentions are of no consequence?
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:15 am

donttreadonred wrote:@english_jewel
That's a fair point. Some is a very ambiguous term. I won't sit here and pretend to quote you figures and rationals. The killing of civilians is never acceptable. However, for the sake of my argument, the intention was to describe the intended target of the actions. Bin Laden, Hussein and Gaddaffi's targets were civilian, intending to create fear to unsettle foreign powers and control domestic groups. Civilian casualties as a result of US and Nato attacks are collateral, meaning that they were not intended. The killing of civilians was never the goal of the attack. While the deaths of civilians is never irrelevant, my definition of "some" is.

Fair point Thumbs up

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