Re: Is England's best hope of succeeding in Euros, adapting Stoke's Tactics?

by Lord Awesome Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:26 am

If they're even given the chance again, that is.

by dostoevsky Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:28 am

The Franchise wrote:Intresting thoughts Doest which I largely agree with.

I dont think England would want any part of Ukraine though. They gave Germany fits, especially on the counter.

Artem Milevskiy is a very intresting player and im stunned someone bigger hasnt gone for him. Shevchenko also still has alot to offer despite his age.

I'd prefer to get a Ukraine or Poland in the group stage over Spain or the Netherlands in the belief that they're more likely to drop points in another match, even if you can only get a point against them yourself. Winning their group should definitely be England's aim, though it may not be possible.

by The Franchise Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:32 am

Lord Hispano wrote:If they're even given the chance again, that is.

But thats what Xavi was saying no? If both teams played the same way again, 9 out of 10 Spain would win. Its not an exact science but I might agree with that. Defending for that length of time is hard to do.

by The Franchise Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:33 am

dostoevsky wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Intresting thoughts Doest which I largely agree with.

I dont think England would want any part of Ukraine though. They gave Germany fits, especially on the counter.

Artem Milevskiy is a very intresting player and im stunned someone bigger hasnt gone for him. Shevchenko also still has alot to offer despite his age.

I'd prefer to get a Ukraine or Poland in the group stage over Spain or the Netherlands in the belief that they're more likely to drop points in another match, even if you can only get a point against them yourself. Winning their group should definitely be England's aim, though it may not be possible.

Yeah, very true lol

Just a good chance for me to give some props to Ukraine, I like them. Not their racist coach though.

by Lord Awesome Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:40 am

The Franchise wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:If they're even given the chance again, that is.

But thats what Xavi was saying no? If both teams played the same way again, 9 out of 10 Spain would win. Its not an exact science but I might agree with that. Defending for that length of time is hard to do.

If Spain improve their finishing then England would tighten their screws.

Or simply put, if Spain decide to compete in their friendlies, then yeah, it's possible.

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:40 am

I have a feeling Ireland will be a b*tch to score against. Will make the QFs at least.

by dostoevsky Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:42 am

Sepi wrote:I have a feeling Ireland will be a b*tch to score against. Will make the QFs at least.

Trappatoni has had such an unjust run in international tournaments, I hope Ireland have a great run, he deserves it.

by Lord Awesome Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:45 am

The Irish should really pat themselves on the back.

What's their population again?
Is Football even the most popular sport in there?

by Jay29 Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:01 am

I don't think it is, and you wouldn't be surprised to know that none of Ireland's squad play their football in Ireland.

They've been in and about qualification for a few years now, but this time they've finally managed to go the extra mile. Helps that they drew Estonia in the play-off rounds, of course.

Anyway:

-------------Hart

-------Terry-------Jagielka
Richards--------------------Cole

------------Nolan
-------Parker
---------------Wilshere
Young---------------------Downing
-------------Rooney

Just want to point out that Nolan isn't a defensive midfielder, or even a central midfielder.

by rwo power Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:10 am

The Franchise wrote:I dont think England would want any part of Ukraine though. They gave Germany fits, especially on the counter.

Actually I doubt that Capello would ask his players to play a system they haven't even tried in training before, so I guess England should be able to deal with them.

by Lord Awesome Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:13 am

What the flip was I on.

I just confused Nolan for Barton. Shocked

by Jay29 Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:28 am

It'll take a brave man to call up Joey Barton to the national team. He's obviously been one of England's better midfielders the past couple of years, but he's still perceived in a negative light by a vast majority of fans.

by The Madrid One Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:52 am

world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.

by Nishankly Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:31 am

lenear1030 wrote:call up Delap

by dostoevsky Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:46 am

The Madrid One wrote:world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.

No single system is the future, football works in cycles. Even when focussed upon a certain style, the German youth development system will give rise to German national teams of different characters, even within the same generation.

England need to choose what is right for them and with their crop of youngsters popping up, that will likely change after Euro 2012 when another round of retirements may change some aspects of the team.

by rwo power Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:54 am

dostoevsky wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.

No single system is the future, football works in cycles. Even when focussed upon a certain style, the German youth development system will give rise to German national teams of different characters, even within the same generation.

Actually Löw already works on adding more flexibility. If a team only sticks to one modus operandi, their opponents will be able to figure out a tactic against it in due time. See Spain against England - England's method may not have looked beautiful, but obviously parking the double decker (as GoonerJay aptly put it in the chat) did the job and England won. Spain very much lacked the proverbial "Plan B" to overcome the successfully parked bus.

dostoevsky wrote:England need to choose what is right for them and with their crop of youngsters popping up, that will likely change after Euro 2012 when another round of retirements may change some aspects of the team.

Well, I'd be interested if England manages to figure out a style for themselves in the future. And style doesn't mean one tactic, but something that makes the team recognizable whomever they play and however they do it.

by dostoevsky Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:14 am

rwo power wrote:
dostoevsky wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.

No single system is the future, football works in cycles. Even when focussed upon a certain style, the German youth development system will give rise to German national teams of different characters, even within the same generation.
Actually Löw already works on adding more flexibility. If a team only sticks to one modus operandi, their opponents will be able to figure out a tactic against it in due time. See Spain against England - England's method may not have looked beautiful, but obviously parking the double decker (as GoonerJay aptly put it in the chat) did the job and England won. Spain very much lacked the proverbial "Plan B" to overcome the successfully parked bus.

dostoevsky wrote:England need to choose what is right for them and with their crop of youngsters popping up, that will likely change after Euro 2012 when another round of retirements may change some aspects of the team.
Well, I'd be interested if England manages to figure out a style for themselves in the future. And style doesn't mean one tactic, but something that makes the team recognizable whomever they play and however they do it.

Indeed, I remember in the past few years that Italy's performances in 2006 were to blame for a new wave of defensive teams at both club and international level which would persist, however now even Prandelli wishes to add an Italian touch to Spain's style of play, whilst TMO is attempting to highlight a perceived new dominance arising from quick, counter-attacking football. No team can sustain a single system for several years without being 'worked out' so to speak. In the same manner that a style is hunted, those attempting to reach the top can not stand still. Even given the current squad, Germany can field a line-up based upon a Piggy-Kroos combination or Sven-Lars. On the part of Italy, our midfield is built on Pirlo or even simply the idea of Pirlo whether he is present or not. England's midfield meanwhile will probably never cease to be the subject of debate, even once the Euro starts.

Part of England's problem in my eyes has come from being restricted by a lack of true diversity in their options across the park. At the World Cup, their forward line consisted of Rooney, Crouch, Defoe and Heskey. In the future, England should be able to call upon a selection Rooney, Sturridge, Welbeck, Carroll, Walcott or Zamora. England can maintain their more traditional forwards and exploit this as a strength as long as others are in the squad who can alter England's style of play and allow England to change the circumstances of games, not to simply react or hope for the best.

The ability to express very different kinds of football with a single squad isn't necessary to win a tournament, however it's better to have every option available to a manager, even if they then perhaps choose the wrong path due to this abundance of choice. It's important that the manager at least has something to invest his ideas in.

by rwo power Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:52 am

dostoevsky wrote:Indeed, I remember in the past few years that Italy's performances in 2006 were to blame for a new wave of defensive teams at both club and international level which would persist, however now even Prandelli wishes to add an Italian touch to Spain's style of play, whilst TMO is attempting to highlight a perceived new dominance arising from quick, counter-attacking football. No team can sustain a single system for several years without being 'worked out' so to speak. In the same manner that a style is hunted, those attempting to reach the top can not stand still.

Exactly. I think the main problem comes from coaches/teams that rest on their laurels after winning stuff. I think that can very much happen to Spain right now. They don't seem to have inserted many new elements after their EC and WC wins, and it starts to show. The fact that one team can't play identically over years also stems from the fact that key players get older and lose certain characteristics with time (mostly speed/pace) while they gain others (usually the proverbial experience) and thus might be better used in slightly different roles. If a coach doesn't adapt to that, he possibly wonders what went wrong if the expected successes don't come around anymore.

dostoevsky wrote:Even given the current squad, Germany can field a line-up based upon a Piggy-Kroos combination or Sven-Lars. On the part of Italy, our midfield is built on Pirlo or even simply the idea of Pirlo whether he is present or not. England's midfield meanwhile will probably never cease to be the subject of debate, even once the Euro starts.

Actually I'd love to see the double-Bender in the NT one day Very Happy

The English NT's problem is that Capello, no matter what he wanted to do, still bowed to the English media and tried to stick the big names all together in the midfield, no matter whether they form a team or not. I think the English media *still* hasn't understood that you don't need to take the best players, but the best team. That has always been the case when they started with "none of the German players would find a place in the English team because man by man the English players are stronger". I really wonder why it is so difficult for them to understand that it's about a team not single world beaters.

That's why I mentioned in another thread where people said that Rooney would easily make it into for example the German team that I just wouldn't want him in the German team as I don't think he'd make the *team* stronger. To form a team you need to have characters that fit together, and I think that a player like Rooney wouldn't work with the German boys due to a totally different mentality. I mean, in SA, the German players had fun outside their training camp, went on safaris, explored the area etc. Rooney only complained that he was bored outside of the matches. Something like that just doesn't fit.

I think in England they really need to teach the young players not only how to play football, but help them develop their personality, too. I saw a documentary about a German youth academy a while ago, and the German players go to school there and are expected to get good marks in class, too. (IIRC, Alexander Merkel went to Italy because he was bad in his school marks and the VfB academy didn't want to keep him due to that, not for lack of playing skills). Moreover, the youngsters are also schooled in rhethorics and how to deal with the press. I think I remember that quite some people remarked that German players usually don't make fools of themselves when interviewed (okay, let's leave out Roman "We have a grandios saison gespielt" Weidenfeller XD) - that's the reason.

dostoevsky wrote:Part of England's problem in my eyes has come from being restricted by a lack of true diversity in their options across the park. At the World Cup, their forward line consisted of Rooney, Crouch, Defoe and Heskey. In the future, England should be able to call upon a selection Rooney, Sturridge, Welbeck, Carroll, Walcott or Zamora. England can maintain their more traditional forwards and exploit this as a strength as long as others are in the squad who can alter England's style of play and allow England to change the circumstances of games, not to simply react or hope for the best.

Yeah, that's what I noticed, too. Somehow they really lack a proper plan most of the time. In a way, last match for once showed a homogenous tactic that everybody adhered to. It may not have looked nice, but it was a strict gameplan from beginning to end.

dostoevsky wrote:The ability to express very different kinds of football with a single squad isn't necessary to win a tournament, however it's better to have every option available to a manager, even if they then perhaps choose the wrong path due to this abundance of choice. It's important that the manager at least has something to invest his ideas in.

Yeah. And the media should not rip the manager apart when he tries out stuff and it doesn't work. The German media were comparatively kind to Löw's 3-4-2-1 experiment, for example. I think if Capello would have tried something like that, he'd be torn to pieces in English media for it.

by dostoevsky Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:18 am

rwo power wrote:Exactly. I think the main problem comes from coaches/teams that rest on their laurels after winning stuff. I think that can very much happen to Spain right now. They don't seem to have inserted many new elements after their EC and WC wins, and it starts to show. The fact that one team can't play identically over years also stems from the fact that key players get older and lose certain characteristics with time (mostly speed/pace) while they gain others (usually the proverbial experience) and thus might be better used in slightly different roles. If a coach doesn't adapt to that, he possibly wonders what went wrong if the expected successes don't come around anymore.

Definitely, and it's particularly important to have true competition for places within a squad and a manager willing to embrace that and set aside loyalty, even with a successful group. Lippi was loyal to players who were about as mobile as a World War I tank stuck in the Alps during winter. To an extent this has plagued Spain given the lack of chances afforded to Llorente, however the problems for Italy and England are different to that of Spain in defeating issues of loyalty to a squad, in that whilst Spain have a spread of talent at all ages, both Italy and England were left with gaps between significant options, though England's is more enforced by an aggressive media rather than the personal preferences of Lippi. For Italy, Cannavaro was starting despite being on the verge of turning 37, yet his back-ups, Bonucci and Bocchetti, were 22 and 23. The competition for spots between 2006 and 2010 had allowed Cannavaro's presence to be a persistent one, with only Chiellini arising whilst Barzagli and Gamberini failed to win the confidence of the manager. In our forward line a similar problem arose with the age difference between the likes of Totti and Miccoli as options set ignored by the coach and Balotelli and Rossi. The choice truly was between potential and experience, with no healthy growth of options allowing our squad to become comfortable and safe.

For England, it's a similar case to an extent. The heirs to Terry, Ferdinand, Gerrard and Lampard aren't obvious ones. The likes of Cahill and Barry aren't expecting to be challenged in the future by Smalling, Jones, Wilshere and Ramsey, the competition is present and immediate. There are options, however the transition hasn't been as natural as it should be in a national team and for a coach under intense pressure from the media, there will be criticism with either decision.

rwo power wrote:The English NT's problem is that Capello, no matter what he wanted to do, still bowed to the English media and tried to stick the big names all together in the midfield, no matter whether they form a team or not. I think the English media *still* hasn't understood that you don't need to take the best players, but the best team. That has always been the case when they started with "none of the German players would find a place in the English team because man by man the English players are stronger". I really wonder why it is so difficult for them to understand that it's about a team not single world beaters.

That's why I mentioned in another thread where people said that Rooney would easily make it into for example the German team that I just wouldn't want him in the German team as I don't think he'd make the *team* stronger. To form a team you need to have characters that fit together, and I think that a player like Rooney wouldn't work with the German boys due to a totally different mentality. I mean, in SA, the German players had fun outside their training camp, went on safaris, explored the area etc. Rooney only complained that he was bored outside of the matches. Something like that just doesn't fit.

I think in England they really need to teach the young players not only how to play football, but help them develop their personality, too. I saw a documentary about a German youth academy a while ago, and the German players go to school there and are expected to get good marks in class, too. (IIRC, Alexander Merkel went to Italy because he was bad in his school marks and the VfB academy didn't want to keep him due to that, not for lack of playing skills). Moreover, the youngsters are also schooled in rhethorics and how to deal with the press. I think I remember that quite some people remarked that German players usually don't make fools of themselves when interviewed (okay, let's leave out Roman "We have a grandios saison gespielt" Weidenfeller XD) - that's the reason.

I've just been threatened by my friend that if I'm not off of these forums in ten minutes and studying for tomorrow's exam, I'm going to be killed, so I'll have to be quick. Razz

I definitely agree with the notion of the best team, though it was dangerously abused by Lippi in the case of Italy. Almost every forward in the country with any flair in his bones apart from Di Natale and Quagliarella - who were then benched by Lippi for reasons unknown and painful to my person - managed to annoy Lippi in some form or another, however a firm stand by the manager is required. In some cases it backfires, but essentially you do need a team willing to work for each other. I believe that for all of his faults, Rooney is willing to work for a team, though I see your point about the German national team. In the case of Germany, one fits the system, where as Rooney to an extent can almost demand that the system must fit him in order to benefit England the most. Uruguay won an entire tournament by building the team around Forlan, however each situation is unique and a happy and well functioning team - not always possible with limited time together - will always be the most desirable outcome.

rwo power wrote:Yeah, that's what I noticed, too. Somehow they really lack a proper plan most of the time. In a way, last match for once showed a homogenous tactic that everybody adhered to. It may not have looked nice, but it was a strict gameplan from beginning to end.

Time running out, so: yes. Razz

rwo power wrote:Yeah. And the media should not rip the manager apart when he tries out stuff and it doesn't work. The German media were comparatively kind to Löw's 3-4-2-1 experiment, for example. I think if Capello would have tried something like that, he'd be torn to pieces in English media for it.

I was incredibly impressed with Löw's courage in attempting such a system and he deserves plaudits for the attempt - even if I must admit that not trying out the system in training prior to the match showed...unique administration. Razz

He's embracing the true value of the international friendly though, and if everyone treated them as Löw did, then there wouldn't be so much apathy from club fans about international fixtures. Hopefully Prandelli shows such an adventurous nature in the future, however I tip my hat to Löw.

by Jay29 Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:40 pm

See, I believe the reason for our lack of gameplan is that managers don't realise that as a collective, England are inferior to a good number of sides. Instead, they judge the team on the idividuals within it. The media and fans have been guilty of this too, hence the whole "man for man, England are better than Germany, therefore we should win".

Managers seem to think that if they just put the best eleven possible on the pitch, that they'll win, which obviously has backfired. Whether our strategy to park the double decker bus against Spain was an actual acceptance that we were inferior to Spain, or just happened because Spain was just that damn good, we don't really know. We'll have to wait and see.

Capello also doesn't seem to know how to make use of all the players he has. One well-documented example is how he constantly has a go at Walcott for not going to the byline and whipping in crosses, even when it's not Walcott's natural game or even things he excels at. Surely, if he wanted someone to perform as a traditonal winger, someone like James Milner or Stewart Downing would be better options.

The recent switch to 4-3-3 might indicate he's actually realised this, but again we'll see if he sticks with it.

by rwo power Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:03 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:Capello also doesn't seem to know how to make use of all the players he has. One well-documented example is how he constantly has a go at Walcott for not going to the byline and whipping in crosses, even when it's not Walcott's natural game or even things he excels at. Surely, if he wanted someone to perform as a traditonal winger, someone like James Milner or Stewart Downing would be better options.

Indeed. It looks as if the coach of the England NT (even before Capello, mind you!) just has a formation in mind and sticks the players there, no matter whether they can play it or not. This is aggravated by the fact, that most English players lack the versatility to be able to play different positions well. I noticed that when I followed discussions about German players like Thomas Müller - many English people seemed to be surprised that he can play in virtually every position in attack, but players like that make it possible to react more flexible when a formation change is needed on short notice. There were so many discussions that Gerrard is always played out of position (IIRC) - but heck, if he can't play that other position, then simply don't play him if "his" position is already occupied!

by The Franchise Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:51 pm

The Madrid One wrote:world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.

Counter attack the future?

So what happens when you face a team that dont want to attack and therefore you cannot counter?

by rwo power Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:03 pm

The Franchise wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.
Counter attack the future?

So what happens when you face a team that dont want to attack and therefore you cannot counter?

Exactly that's the point why Jogi Löw is now experimenting with setups like 4-1-4-1 or 3-4-2-1 - he wants to figure out something where he can go on full attack course, if need be. The only drawback is that he has to stabilize the defense in these cases - but then, he said he'd rather win 4:3 than 1:0. ^^

by Zealous Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:08 pm

The Franchise wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.

Counter attack the future?

So what happens when you face a team that dont want to attack and therefore you cannot counter?

Watch our game vs Levante. That is exactly what happens lol

Socieadad did the same thing but Pipita saved our asses. It'll be a problem for Mou but I don't think we've reached the point where teams will want to full on park the bus against us yet.

Even then we can still play with the ball at our feet so I think we can solve that type of issue.

by The Franchise Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:13 pm

I like 3421. I saw the game vs Ukraine and while it was hard defensively to pull off I think it was at least partly down to the wings backs Aogo and Trasch not being good enough/not having good games.

by The Franchise Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:16 pm

Zealous wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:world class counter attacking systems are the future of football, germany and real madrid will dominate the planet.

if england want success, they should follow suit too.

Counter attack the future?

So what happens when you face a team that dont want to attack and therefore you cannot counter?

Watch our game vs Levante. That is exactly what happens lol

Socieadad did the same thing but Pipita saved our asses. It'll be a problem for Mou but I don't think we've reached the point where teams will want to full on park the bus against us yet.

Even then we can still play with the ball at our feet so I think we can solve that type of issue.

Exactly the game I was thinking about when I wrote it lol

In the end, all ways of playing have a method to limit it. There is no master system for all teams to copy.

I think Madrids way is the best for them though and they should certaintly stick to it with the personale they have. It will be difficult as teams park the bus more, but when your great, teams do that eventually no matter how you play.

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