4-4-2 .....Is it Dead ?

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Post by Guest Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:28 am

I know Fergie has won bucketloads with that, but I've noticed even him, is implementing more of a 4-4-1-1 since last January, so Rooney can help his hopeless CMs.

Other than Fergie, who let's face it is a freak of a nature (in a good way), I can't think of any modern managers implementing the formation for their top teams...or am I missing someone?

Back in late 80s and 90s, 3-5-1 with a Libero was pretty popular...but it reached its end with emergence of 4-4-2. To me, it looks like the flat 4-4-2 is truly dead now, and it's time for more floating formations to step it up.


Having said that....my favourite formation is 3-6-1 Cool Twisted Evil

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Post by zizzle Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:17 am

Its beacuse in the modern game wingers are played closer to the goal and no longer worry about defensive responsibilities while CMs have to do all the dirty work. Its no coincidence that both tactically discplined traditional wingers like Nedved and the more adventures attacking midfielders like Zidane and Riquilme have disappeared at the same time. The less wingers have to contribute defensivly the more crowded the midfield has to be, and with the need of at least one ball playing CM to get the ball forward then 2 DMs should be there to cover his behind.



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Post by chinomaster182 Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:46 am

The flat 4-4-2 is certainly on a downward trend, its just a hard shape to play fluidly in, especially in the midfield. However, i don't think its going anywhere.

When your opponents play very narrow, like current Milan, it can be good to play wide, especially if you have pacey/tricky wingers that can do lots of danger down the flanks, like say Manchester United.

There's lots of things in Football that come and go and are hot for some years and not so much on others. Take for example Guardiola, he thought his particular brand of deep lying playmaking was dead when he retired, until Xavi came along and now its just hot shit to have a player like him instead of a classic no 10 like Riquelme. Then after Ruud Van Nistleroy people more or less thought the poacher was dead, you just needed a more versatile player, then came Javier Hernandez, i pacier more intelligent player but overall a poacher. Cruyff one said catenaccio was dead when total football seemed triumphant and everyone more or less agreed, now we have Mourinho who teaches strict discipline in the back and fluidity in the front, balance so you can be offensive one second and defensive the other.

I do believe we push foreward in football for new ideas, but i also believe its like chess or paper, rock, scissors. Some things just counter others. Could the sweeper return to prominence? Sure, just not exactly like back in the old days.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/

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Post by rwo power Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:53 am

I think the "Bundesliga dinosaur" HSV still plays it. Well. I guess they are called "BL dino" for a reason. And look where it brought them in the table so far Very Happy
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Post by chinomaster182 Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:54 am

Juventus plays it and its topping the tables... It works because most Serie A teams play so narrow.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/10/23/antonio-contes-system-isnt-a-4-2-4-but-still-provides-excitement/
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Post by michael1 Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:01 am

chinomaster182 wrote:The flat 4-4-2 is certainly on a downward trend, its just a hard shape to play fluidly in, especially in the midfield. However, i don't think its going anywhere.

When your opponents play very narrow, like current Milan, it can be good to play wide, especially if you have pacey/tricky wingers that can do lots of danger down the flanks, like say Manchester United.

There's lots of things in Football that come and go and are hot for some years and not so much on others. Take for example Guardiola, he thought his particular brand of deep lying playmaking was dead when he retired, until Xavi came along and now its just hot shit to have a player like him instead of a classic no 10 like Riquelme. Then after Ruud Van Nistleroy people more or less thought the poacher was dead, you just needed a more versatile player, then came Javier Hernandez, i pacier more intelligent player but overall a poacher. Cruyff one said catenaccio was dead when total football seemed triumphant and everyone more or less agreed, now we have Mourinho who teaches strict discipline in the back and fluidity in the front, balance so you can be offensive one second and defensive the other.

I do believe we push foreward in football for new ideas, but i also believe its like chess or paper, rock, scissors. Some things just counter others. Could the sweeper return to prominence? Sure, just not exactly like back in the old days.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/22/is-the-sweeper-set-for-a-return-to-prominence/


Pirlo came first buddy.

Xavi is a poor mans pirlo
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Post by Sushi Master Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:08 pm

Doesn't the great Newcastle play 4-4-2? Stoke City?

The English NT? Very Happy
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:36 pm

Newcastle say otherwise banana
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Post by Swanhends Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:05 pm

4231 has been the new thing since 2010....seems like everyone and their mothers use it
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Post by justdoit_ Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:09 pm

rwo power wrote:I think the "Bundesliga dinosaur" HSV still plays it. Well. I guess they are called "BL dino" for a reason. And look where it brought them in the table so far Very Happy
Borussia Monchengladbach...
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Post by The Franchise Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:15 pm

Fundamentally flawed formation vs teams with number 10s or those types.

Only got 2 central midfielders, they have a hard choice to make. Do they sit back and protect the back 4?

If the answer is yes, then the opponents center midfield will have time and space on the ball and dominate.

If they try and stop that by getting tight to that midfield, space opens in between the lines for the number 10.

If one stays and the other presses, that one is outnumbered and will be chasing shadows.




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Post by hrealmadrid Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:51 pm

Not dead but certainly a lot less common than it was
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Post by Guest Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:52 pm

4-4-2 is fine. It will always be there. It's just a question of personnel. It's hard to find wingers that can defend and complete midfielders. Because we're dealing with a lot more specialty players, shapes have changed to adapt.

Although Madrid runs a 4-2-3-1, we are getting Di Maria and Ozil to participate a lot more in the midfield. You're starting to see a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-4-2 at times with Madrid. Reason why Ozil's father is complaining... Ozil is having the hardest time with the responsibilities required defensively.

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Post by The Franchise Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:57 pm

Sport, defensively, it is not fine for me.

As I said, if there are only 2 central player defensively they are in trouble. Either outnumbered, have to give space between the lines or the opponent midfield,

Some teams would have the wingers do defensive work, and assist the center however this leaves the fullbacks in tons of space and the defensive work of the wingers detract from their offensive ability.



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Post by Swanhends Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:05 pm

The Franchise wrote:Sport, defensively, it is not fine for me.

As I said, if there are only 2 central player defensively they are in trouble. Either outnumbered, have to give space between the lines or the opponent midfield,

Some teams would have the wingers do defensive work, and assist the center however this leaves the fullbacks in tons of space and the defensive work of the wingers detract from their offensive ability.




Its not an unsolvable problem, though...We've seen different teams win a 442 vs 433 etc battle many times - with the common denominator being the teams playing a 442 always dropped 1 of their 2 forwards goal-side of the deepest opposition midfielder when they were without the ball...not to mention playing a 442 the side should play very compact from back to front (see: Milan late 80s-early 90s)

Its going through a bit of a transformation, of course, but its far from a dead or useless formation
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:06 pm

City, Newcastle and Juventus......

3 unbeaten teams play a form of 4-4-2 in majority of games.

Just sayin.
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Post by The Franchise Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:13 pm

City dont play 442 Mole, its a weird mix of 4231 and 4222 depending on who is playing,

Newcastle I am yet to see (sorry lol) and same goes for Juve other then big games where they have actually used 3 in the middle.

Bhends, of course its not impossible to lose a game with 3 v 2 in the midfield, but its not a smart way to go all things bein equal.

I agree 442 in theory can be very compact, but if your going down the defending and counter route there are various other formations which would make sense to me.

I think 442 is dead, I think 4411 is still feasible, but against many teams its asking for trouble.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:18 pm

The Franchise wrote:City dont play 442 Mole, its a weird mix of 4231 and 4222 depending on who is playing,

Newcastle I am yet to see (sorry lol) and same goes for Juve other then big games where they have actually used 3 in the middle.

Bhends, of course its not impossible to lose a game with 3 v 2 in the midfield, but its not a smart way to go all things bein equal.

I agree 442 in theory can be very compact, but if your going down the defending and counter route there are various other formations which would make sense to me.

I think 442 is dead, I think 4411 is still feasible, but against many teams its asking for trouble.

Notice i said a form of 4-4-2 and 4-2-2-2 is a form of 4-4-2 Very Happy

With all this said i hope we change to 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 lol
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Post by Guest Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:20 pm

Everyone is asked to defend at Madrid now. Even CR7, although he's the worse at it. All we've done is moved the defensive pressure up the field and start it in the opposition's half. It's very similar to what Barca does.

One of the reasons Ozil/Kaka and Benz/Higuain are doing regular rotations is that the effort required by the players to play both defense and offense is huge. Khedira is also asked to go box-to-box like a madman and needs a breather from Coentrao. With Sahin back now, i'd expect Alonso to start getting breathers too.

In short, i think teams run whatever works for the talent they have. The offensive and defensive shapes vary game to game.

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Post by The Franchise Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:20 pm

Look at Barca - Man utd as a prime example.

Two mids trying to contain Xavi and Iniesta, Rooney dropping on Busquets.

Messi drops in between the lines because the two Man Utd mids (Park maybe and someone I cant remember, maybe Carrick) are busy high up the pitch trying to corall Xavi and Iniesta who have opened the lines up. Messi goal.

To counter this, Man utds mids ignore Xavi and Iniesta and cover the space to stop Messi. Xavi and Iniesta have time on the ball to control the game even more. Countered by the wingers who come inside to help. This leaves the Barca fullbacks with time and space on the ball.

No way around it, someone will always have time and space. Pressing high up the pitch stopped all this happening early on, but once Barca got used to the pressing they picked their way trough it and what I said above comes into play.

Again, its not an impossible situation, but its asking for trouble.
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Post by Guest Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Man U has a very meh midfield Franchise. It's a major weakness. Once they get M'Villa (very strong rumors now), things suddenly change drastically for them defensively and in ball recovery in the midfield.

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Post by Sushi Master Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:42 pm

M'Vila alone won't fix ManU's midfield problems. They need someone more creative, not a workhorse sort of player. They have plenty of those.
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Post by Guest Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:50 pm

Sushi Master wrote:M'Vila alone won't fix ManU's midfield problems. They need someone more creative, not a workhorse sort of player. They have plenty of those.

They lack athleticism defensively there. Their workhorses are very meh and don't cover a whole lot of ground. It all comes to winning duels, placement and recovering defensively. M'Vila is on a whole different level than anyone on their squad.

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Post by Lord Awesome Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:52 pm

Man U shouldn't have let go of Tevez, IMO.

Him and Rooney would have worked wonders for the squad.
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Post by Sushi Master Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:08 pm

sportsczy wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:M'Vila alone won't fix ManU's midfield problems. They need someone more creative, not a workhorse sort of player. They have plenty of those.

They lack athleticism defensively there. Their workhorses are very meh and don't cover a whole lot of ground. It all comes to winning duels, placement and recovering defensively. M'Vila is on a whole different level than anyone on their squad.
True, but due due to their whole workhorse mentality of the team, they cover that up nicely. They still lack someone with a decent pass. A Hamsik, Modric sort of guy (if they keep on playing 4-4-2).
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