Fulham Away is the Benchmark- Why did Kenny change our style ?

Much has said about our yesterday's performance and it's been frustrating. Some of the tactics and selections have raised a few eye brows, but the biggest disappointment for me has been the change of attacking style compared to the high standard games we played in the end of last season..namely Man City at Anfield and Fulham at Craven Cottage.

When Carroll was knocking those crosses down to the box yesterday when we had absolutely no one there and no link between midfield and attack, I was reminded of those 2 spectacular performances which in my opinion are the best football we've played since the end of 08-09 season.

We were scoring for fun a few months ago, yet we tend to struggle to score these days...Why is that? When watching extended highlights of those games, I decided to take snap shots as it truly and very effectively shows the difference between Liverpool of yesterday and Liverpool of April-May of 2011.


This is 30 seconds in at Craven Cottage with Suarez breaking through. Notice the amount of runners we are getting into the box and giving Suarez options of whether to pass/shoot. Kuyt is almost shoulder to shoulder with their CB, Raul is lurking just behind the box as well (and gets in the box in the end) and Maxi which seem to far behind in this snapshot, is actually the player scoring from that move 5-6 seconds after that since he continues his run find a space in the box and finishes well. Lack of runners from midfield in behind the strikers was so frustrating to watch yesterday it was unbelievable.

Here is another example. For the second goal in the same game:

This is just after Johnson has delivered his cross into the box. You can see Meireles is in the box already, and Suarez is joining as well...so even if the Fulham defender manages to intercept the cross (that he couldn't in real life) there is a lo of chance that the ball will fall to one of our players in tons of space available, because we've attacked the space around their box perfectly.


Now, 2 quick snapshots for the move that resulted in our 3rd goal.


Perfect pass and move play. Lucas, Maxi, Spearing and Suarez are quite narrow there and you'll see Lucas moving into the space between Fulham midfielders with Spearing coming into the space Lucas is at in this picture, while the balls gets distributed to the right. Meireles , Suarez and Maxi all attack the box when Shwarzer doesn't expect Kuyt to just shoot when this snapshot happens:

It doesn't show Maxi and Suarez but they are in the box, occupying defenders and waiting for a possible pass/rebound. Spearing is well positioned in the middle so in case the ball is intercepted and they counter, we'll have enough cover.


2 More examples in build up of Dirk's goal vs City:

This is absolutely fantastic. Suarez with the ball and 3 PLAYERS IN FRONT OF HIM. Each running toward one direction to make themselves available for a pass, and confuse City defenders. The ball ends up with Raul in this case. City defenders can't risk and and try to block Suarez since those 3 LFC players ahead of Luis could massively take advantage if the killer pass made at the right time. I can't recall Luis attacking opposition with the ball this season and having 3 attackers (from his own team) ahead of him as passing options.

and finally the goal.

Once again we've got plenty of bodies into the box. It shows Luis and Andy, but Fabio is outta the frame, Spearing in tons of space just behind the box...and this time Lucas protecting the midfield in case they made an interception and countered (just like Jay was doing it in build up move to Kuyt's goal at Fulham)




All of those snapshots and build ups had a few things in common:
1) Dynamism of players which gives options to the person in possession.
2) All players wanted the ball at SPACE or FEET....at the moment 90% of our passes are to feet since we play "Pass and stay" as opposed to "Pass and move"
3) Crowding the box. Eying those incomplete blocks or interceptions by opposition defenders, a lot of presence and causing havoc by movement in the box.

Unfortunately, at the moment...we don't hav any of the 3...and 3 players who were at heart and soul of all those brilliant plays aren't playing for us anymore. The Portuegese Lampard is in London....Jay and Maxi play only once a month in CC, and have played 35 minutes in the league combined.

I hope KK gets the squad to watch those 2 games over and over again, and goes through the importance of movement and attacking the box. Hell, I hope Kenny himself watches it first !

I think one of our weaknesses during Rafa's reign, and probably the only weakness of Xabi-Masch partnership was their lack of direct goal threat which left the front 4 for scoring goals.

Under Kenny we solved this problem last season, as likes of Raul, Maxi, and one of Jay/Lucas always joined the attacking moves. I was very excited to see how Kenny will even make our attacking unit more dynamic and unpredictable.

So far...we've gone backwards......there is gap as big as titanic between our midfielders and strikers..and our wide players are nowhere near as much of goal threat as they should be

Not for the first time I find myself applauding your effort and determination in letting your (Liverpool-related) thoughts be heard, Sepi


Umm, I'm afraid all I can honestly and with confidence say on this is "I don't know". I don't know what's the main problem. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, I don't know.

In some games this season we've created a lot of chances but haven't scored enough. In other games we don't create enough clear-cut opportunities. If it was just one or the other, it'd be easier to say "that's where we are failing".

What comes to that "supporting runs from midfield" part, I'll say this:
We need Gerrard. Lucas has scored one goal during his LFC career, can't really expect anything from there. Adam has got goals in him, but he likes to take those long-range shots from outside the box, I can't remember him surging into the penalty area too often. Henderson has been a little too cautious as well, whenever it's Kuyt playing in his place I see Dirk in the opponent's box much more than I'm seeing Hendo. So I'd say it's not necessarily down to tactics, could be simply down to players on the field.

Stevie is going to need to play in that position just behind the strikers when he comes back. I'm not usually an advocate of him playing there , but we need goals.

Downing to the Bench please.

Dirk on the right makes no sense with Caroll on the pitch.

Suarez is way too isolated.I wouldn't mind putting him on the wing.

Kelly.......Skrtel......Agger......Enrique
...........Lucas.........Adam/Spearing...
Kuyt/Maxi......Gerrard............Suarez
...................Caroll/Bellamy.

Kuyt+Bellamy.

Caroll + Downing/Maxi ideally.

this is the full extent of our best options

I'm leaving out Hendo because he isn't better than any player in any of the positions listed.

He can fill in for Stevie as AM , but really he would be the weak point , not because he's poor , but because Stevie in that role is required to score goals , something he just dosen't do.

As I've been writing , I'm actually thinking Maxi could possibly fill in for Stevie.

Anyway......I think that our problems are exacerbated by Caroll's poor form and Suarez poor finishing... we're creating chances , just need to convert them.

^
I don't think our strikers are the problem.

It's the midfield. Hendo and Downing provide very very little to attack, and our fullbacks are actually more dangerous. Adam thrives in a 3-man midfield and struggles in a flat 4-4-2.

Sepi wrote:^
I don't think our strikers are the problem.

It's the midfield.

You want more goals from midfield which is understandable

but realistically the only midfielder what options dowe have in mifield than the ones we currently employ?

Spearing and Maxi?

Spearing inn't gonna fix anything.

Maxi possibly could, but don't coun't on it.

Stevie can fix most of our prblems if he stay's fit.

Caroll need to start putting in some chances though, absloving him of all blame is crazy.

NB: As time goes on I hate Downing , more and more. No idea why we bought this guy....We could've had any number of players better than him.

On Adam

I would have been a real advocate of

Adam-Lucas_Gerrard

had we not been starving for goals.

As of now , Gerrard goes straight into the deep CF position to create some sense of transition game.

^
The thing is, Gerrard's injury record shows we should look at him as a luxury player as someone we really depend on.

We need to spend big on an AM in Jan..someone who links the midfield to attack.

Adam creates some chances, and I like him as a player. He'd make a great squad player at 7M, but as the main man in 4-4-2, it just doesn't work. He takes time to make his decisions which lowers the tempo (something Spearing does the opposite, since he ups the tempo with quick passing) and hence opposition has less time to get in position.

I'd say that...if we play this 4-4-2 with same personnel in the next 2 games, it'll be ugly.

Carroll's miss yesterday was very bad, but what was worse is the ton of empty space in which he provided 4-5 knockdowns, and not a LFC midfielder made himself available there. VDV would have had a hattrick off of those.

We are way too static and predictable in midfield....Maxi, and Meireles provided so much movement and clinicality

Meh you'll probably still beat us.

Sepi wrote:^
The thing is, Gerrard's injury record shows we should look at him as a luxury player as someone we really depend on.

We need to spend big on an AM in Jan..someone who links the midfield to attack.

Adam creates some chances, and I like him as a player. He'd make a great squad player at 7M, but as the main man in 4-4-2, it just doesn't work. He takes time to make his decisions which lowers the tempo (something Spearing does the opposite, since he ups the tempo with quick passing) and hence opposition has less time to get in position.

I'd say that...if we play this 4-4-2 with same personnel in the next 2 games, it'll be ugly.

Carroll's miss yesterday was very bad, but what was worse is the ton of empty space in which he provided 4-5 knockdowns, and not a LFC midfielder made himself available there. Gerrard would have had a hattrick off of those.

We are way too static and predictable in midfield....Maxi, and Meireles provided so much movement and clinicality

Fixed

I agree mostly.

A flat 4-4-2 is always a disaster IMO unless you have Ronaldo as a winger as Ferguson did.

Spending big is not really an option and even so there aren't may people on the market who would be feasible. Perhaps Hamsik , but he's not leaving Napoli.

Maxi could probably provide some movement but it will be at the cost of width and speed.

I think an AM is the last thing we need, we've got loads of people who can play that role. A more attack-minded winger than Hendo is what we could use (Hoilett might be perfect in every way, price tag, age, ability, BPL experienced).

Dirk on the right makes no sense with Caroll on the pitch.

I think it does, Dirk works hard both ways and he's always providing good movement in attack, one of those players who realizes that it's good to make quick runs even if you don't receive the ball, just to get the defence moving, create some space.

quality post, although i do disagree with you calling raul the portugse lampard i can see just how important he mustve been to your team, the way he goes about his game isnt very obvius because alot of the work he does is off the ball (alot like lamps now that i think about it) and his presence seems to open up alot of space for others, similar to suarez
i think the main issue is that a flat 4-4-2 is fading out, as are alot of formations without an AM, although im not sure what the best dolution for pool is because it seems carroll and suarez are giving kenney the same issue torres and drogba give AVB in that both are playing well enough to start although unlike AVB kenney is starting them both, and if it continues to yeild the sort of performances you got against swansea then it might be time to drop one of them and switch to a 4-2-3-1, which would give spearing more opportunites ot play, and would probably best best suited to gerrard given he probably doesnt have the legs to play in a 4-3-3

^ Agreed. We just aren't suited to a flat 4-4-2. We have the right personnel for a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3....It's so obvious to see.

Here is the opposite example from saturday's game.

A comparison to a relatively similar attack vs Swansea really says it all:


2 minutes in, Downing passes the ball to Enrique near the halfway line, and Jose bombs forward. Adam is in the frame, but Downing has stood and not made any move after passing the ball to Enrique. Carroll is running at the box, and Suarez is trying to position himself in space.

2 Seconds later:


Jose continued his run, now in a great position to deliver a ball..there is a TON of space between Williams and Their LB, and the sad thing is, not a single Liverpool player in the box.
- Downing still not made a run, and standing somewhere close to the middle of the park
- Adam didn't continue his run either. there is a whole lot of empty space just behind their box that he could have ran to.
- Suarez has opted to stay on edge of the box, instead of getting in between Williams and I think Taylor.
- Carroll didn't make it in box on time.

result is Jose delivers a ball, no one is there, and they comfortably win the ball back.

The exact opposite of snapshots in OP. Very telling.

If we're playing a true 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1), I agree that the striker combination isn't necessarily the issue. I believe its the combination of Adam and Lucas in the center of midfield. Granted, we do have dilemas on both wings at the moment, with Kuyt not playing a true wide role, Hendo's inconsistent performances and Downing's recent impotence in attacking form. However, it's Adam and Lucas' positioning that really contributes to the dearth of opportunities from the MF.

Both Adam and Lucas are playing deep lying roles, tend to avoid making those surging runs into the box. For Lucas, this is probably what he's been asked to do as a CDM. For Adam, while he is naturally inclined towards a more attacking role, he really wants to be a Xabi Alonso when we need a Gerrard. Xabi - Gerrard - Masch worked because Xabi distributed, Gerrard scored and Masch destroyed. Now that is an oversimplification, but the concept still applies. We're missing that support for the strikers. This deep lying playmaker role works in a 4-2-3-1, but is a little too limited in a 4-4-2. Lucas' ability to distribute the ball, though not as spectacular as Adam, is good enough to justify his place in the midfield of a 4-4-2. What we need is a more box-to-box midfielder capable of distributing and making the runs into the box. Adam’s average positioning is somewhat deceiving on stat sheets. He is often further forward than Lucas, but this is more of a testament to his reluctance to track back and defend at times, rather than his surging runs and direct threat on goal. Maybe Adam can be the midfielder we need, but he's going to need to learn a few new tricks.

The other option is to shuffle the setup. Play a 4-3-2-1 (Christmas Tree) formation with Suarez and Gerrard/Kuyt behind Carroll with Maxi/Adam – Lucas – Hendo/Kuyt(if not used as an SS. In other words this:

-----------------------Carroll/Suarez

-----------Suarez/Bellamy– Gerrard/Kuyt

----------Adam,Maxi – Lucas – Hendo,Kuyt
----------or Downing or Maxi (even Downing as another possibility)

---------Enrique – Agger – Carra/Skrtel – Johnson

This setup is certainly no stranger that the 5-4-1 that we saw several times last season. It also has the added benefit of putting our best attacking options in the best position to score. The big question here is if Lucas is disciplined enough and consistent enough to provide cover for whatever CB pairing is used. With the LM and RM most likely marauding forward to support the three forwards, Lucas would be called on to stymie any potential counterattack. Though he has been called upon over the last season and a half to be the defensive presence in midfield, this formation would raise the expectations placed on his shoulders. I personally think he has the ability, and he has shown he can rise to meet high expectations.

donttreadonred wrote:
Both Adam and Lucas are playing deep lying roles, tend to avoid making those surging runs into the box. For Lucas, this is probably what he's been asked to do as a CDM. For Adam, while he is naturally inclined towards a more attacking role, he really wants to be a Xabi Alonso when we need a Gerrard. Xabi - Gerrard - Masch worked because Xabi distributed, Gerrard scored and Masch destroyed. Now that is an oversimplification, but the concept still applies. We're missing that support for the strikers. This deep lying playmaker role works in a 4-2-3-1, but is a little too limited in a 4-4-2. Lucas' ability to distribute the ball, though not as spectacular as Adam, is good enough to justify his place in the midfield of a 4-4-2. What we need is a more box-to-box midfielder capable of distributing and making the runs into the box. Adam’s average positioning is somewhat deceiving on stat sheets. He is often further forward than Lucas, but this is more of a testament to his reluctance to track back and defend at times, rather than his surging runs and direct threat on goal. Maybe Adam can be the midfielder we need, but he's going to need to learn a few new tricks.

zYyyyeeeeeesssss, I fully agree with this.
Lucas isn't a goal-scorer of any kind and Adam likes his long-range shots and medium-to-long-range passes too much to make dangerous runs into the box. Our wide men - apart from Kuyt from time to time - haven't really brought the dangerous sort off-the-ball movement to our attacks either. We're lacking that final umpf at the moment.

looks like you need a good leggy box to box mid who can shoot and defend

fatman123 wrote:looks like you need a good leggy box to box mid who can shoot and defend

Like a Steven Gerrard type player, or a Raul Meireles?

In all seriousness, someone like Newcastle's Cabaye or Chelsea's Ramires would be a good fit for the role.

donttreadonred wrote:

fatman123 wrote:looks like you need a good leggy box to box mid who can shoot and defend

Like a Steven Gerrard type player, or a Raul Meireles?

In all seriousness, someone like Newcastle's Cabaye or Chelsea's Ramires would be a good fit for the role.

well maybe the stevie g of old yes, but given his age and run of injuries i dont kow if hes got the running in him to play box-to-box for 90mins and as for meireles i dont really see him as a true box-to-box mid, he too lacks th efitness to play sich a role but rahter is a good readers of the game and makes runs when there is a need/opportunity for him to, not like ramires who is a much truer box-to-box player because he really never stops running.

but yeah, sounds like you need a ramires, or essien durring mou, a player like that, not sure who fits that moudl that would be avaialable to you guys though, although if you could find one im sure adam would see alot more of the bench

fatman123 wrote:

donttreadonred wrote:

fatman123 wrote:looks like you need a good leggy box to box mid who can shoot and defend

Like a Steven Gerrard type player, or a Raul Meireles?

In all seriousness, someone like Newcastle's Cabaye or Chelsea's Ramires would be a good fit for the role.

well maybe the stevie g of old yes, but given his age and run of injuries i dont kow if hes got the running in him to play box-to-box for 90mins and as for meireles i dont really see him as a true box-to-box mid, he too lacks th efitness to play sich a role but rahter is a good readers of the game and makes runs when there is a need/opportunity for him to, not like ramires who is a much truer box-to-box player because he really never stops running.

but yeah, sounds like you need a ramires, or essien durring mou, a player like that, not sure who fits that moudl that would be avaialable to you guys though, although if you could find one im sure adam would see alot more of the bench

That's a fair assessment. In my defence, I did say a Stevie G or Meireles type of player. Gerrard isn't the same player he used to be (not that he is washed up, mind you) and Meireles can drop off during games. Though you have to admit, when Meireles is out on the pitch he usually runs his butt off from box to box.

A Wilshere or a Ramsey type of player could fit the mold, too. Heck, even Parker fits the requirements except for his age. Tbh, I know exactly who I would want: Cabaye from Newcastle. (Immaculatemole is going to be angry with me for this one.) He fits all of the criteria we need: creativity (though not flashy), vision (though no "Hollywood" balls), defense, attack and he's even shown a knack for finishing. That said, I would be very surprised if we actually see Cabaye move.

You know who else could fill this role within the organization? Jonjo Shelvey! I'm so excited for what he could bring on his return from Blackpool. Jonjo Shelvey and Connor Coady have the potential to be a heckuva partnership in midfield for the Reds in the not-too-distant future.

Neither Meireles nor Ramirez contribute mush on the defensive side of the ball.

RedOranje wrote:Neither Meireles nor Ramirez contribute mush on the defensive side of the ball.

Ramires contributes a lot in the 'defensive' side of the game...he makes a number of interceptions for example

Or at least 10x more than Meireles