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Post by The Messiah Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:48 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
Idrisozet wrote:Boeteng is Germany best CB...

No he's not. But he's the only really pacey one, and IMHO we need that.

So would you say Badstuber is better, I think Boeteng is much better than Badstuber, I dont understand why manager rate Badstuber so highly.

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Post by VivaStPauli Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:53 pm

No, I would say Hummels and Höwedes are better. Badstuber is good, but he's played because of what he's good at, not because of how good he is.

Hummels and Höwedes are both more complete, and Boateng is still better than Badstuber.
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Post by The Messiah Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:50 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:No, I would say Hummels and Höwedes are better. Badstuber is good, but he's played because of what he's good at, not because of how good he is.

Hummels and Höwedes are both more complete, and Boateng is still better than Badstuber.

What is Badstuber good at...? That is what I dont understand....


Personally I think Boeteng is and has always been a better CB than both Howedes and Hummels.
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Post by rwo power Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:57 pm

Well, Badstuber is pretty reliable at Bayern, I would say. He doesn't look like a star, but he certainly works very nicely there. All the recent clean sheets Bayern amassed were not only due to Neuer after all, and Lahm couldn't be everywhere either.
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Post by The Messiah Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:10 pm

rwo power wrote:Well, Badstuber is pretty reliable at Bayern, I would say. He doesn't look like a star, but he certainly works very nicely there. All the recent clean sheets Bayern amassed were not only due to Neuer after all, and Lahm couldn't be everywhere either.

Have You notice whenever Badstuber and Van Buyten play together the defence is always very shaky.

But when ever Badstuber or Van Buyten plays alongside Boeteng the defence is usually rock solid.
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Post by Sushi Master Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:23 pm

It's because Badstuber and van Buyten are both slow as hell and need someone to cover them. And van Buyten while he has improved is still van Buyten.

As all great CB partnerships, Boateng is the steel and Badstuber the silk which is why they go great together. Hoewedes - Hummels would be my first choice Germany defense.
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Post by The Messiah Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:54 pm

My first choice for Germany back line is.

Howedes--Boeteng--Hummels--no need to mention.
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Post by FC_Hollywood Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:57 pm

It's a shame Loew didn't play Hoewedes at CB instead of Mertesacker. Maybe he wants some experience in the backline?

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Post by rwo power Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:33 pm

Idrisozet wrote:Have You notice whenever Badstuber and Van Buyten play together the defence is always very shaky.

But when ever Badstuber or Van Buyten plays alongside Boeteng the defence is usually rock solid.
Well, that's because Boateng nicely complements Badstuber. Van Buyten is Van Buyten though (although he scores some nice goals, so maybe he should have considered another position? XD)

But in the end both H&H and B&B aren't really bad choices for a CB partnership.
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Post by The Messiah Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:45 pm

rwo power wrote:
Idrisozet wrote:Have You notice whenever Badstuber and Van Buyten play together the defence is always very shaky.

But when ever Badstuber or Van Buyten plays alongside Boeteng the defence is usually rock solid.
Well, that's because Boateng nicely complements Badstuber. Van Buyten is Van Buyten though (although he scores some nice goals, so maybe he should have considered another position? XD)

But in the end both H&H and B&B aren't really bad choices for a CB partnership.

Nice one. I see you.
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Post by The Messiah Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:49 pm

Magricos wrote: Why would Raul be Schalke's captain ? Howedes is a good CB though.

Because his Schalke oldest and best player and one of the greatest players of all time and has a good leadership spirit.

and the writer was trying to show how good Howedes is, as he was awarded Schalke Captain ahead of legendary Raul.
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Post by Dr. Percival Faust Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:24 pm

In an alternate universe, where Germany has an equivalent to Lahm on the right side (his name happens to be Hieronymus von Bratapfel), this would be the perfect line up:

Von Bratapfel --------- Hummels ----- Boateng -------- Lahm
(Beck/Castro) ------- (Badstuber) --- (Höwedes) - (Aogo/Schmelzer)


However, since Hieronymus is just a product of our imagination (like Santa Claus, Jesus and most Eskimos), with the actually available personnel, this is the ideal line up:

-- Boateng ------- Hummels ------- Höwedes ---------- Lahm
(Beck/Castro) --- (Badstuber) --- (Mertesacker) -- (Aogo/Schmelzer)


Still, that's mostly a pipe dream and will very likely not happen by 2012 (maybe in the more distant future), because Jogi heavily rates Badstuber - probably ahead of EVERYONE as far as CBs go. Therefore, the best possible line up that is also realistic would be this one:

-- Boateng --------- Hummels -------- Badstuber ---------- Lahm
(xxxxxxxxxxx) ------ (Höwedes) ----- (Mertesacker) -- (Aogo/Schmelzer)


xxxxxxxxxxx is either
a) Höwedes, meaning that there would only be 7 defenders in the squad, which frees up an additional CF spot
b) Träsch, who Jogi seems to rate higher than both Beck and especially Castro
c) Beck or Castro, who Jogi seems to rate lower than Höwedes, Träsch and even Cacau (not to mention Ramelow).

As far as the starting line up goes in this scenario, it's neat to look at it this way:
- Hummels is the best German CB.
- Badstuber has been performing solid to well in recent months.
- Lahm is a fixture anyway.
- Boateng has been the best RB performer we've seen so far after the world cup (aside from Lahm himself).


Also, Bayern have been playing some games this season with the following line up:
-- Boateng --- Van Buyten --- Badstuber --- Lahm

Rafinha was put to the bench for some matches by Jupp and the above formation was still rock-solid. Even Van Buyten performed well enough.

Now, for the NT, we basically take this rock-solid Bayern formation (which worked against Manchester City and all Bundesliga teams so far), take out the weakest player in Van Buyten and replace him with arguably Germany's strongest CB, Mats Hummels.
Thereby, Germany's defense becomes a greatly upgraded version of Bayern's; 3 of those players will work fine together, since they play at the same club all year and the one slightly weak link (Van Buyten) is hugely upgraded with a top performer (Hummels). I think that's promising and there'd still be an A+ option on the bench with Höwedes for emergency cases (injury, suspension) who would be able to fill in flawlessly, plus a very experienced option with Mertesacker.

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Post by Divine Intervention Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:08 am

My thread is about Belgium. Belgium isn't Germany!
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:24 am

Well you said you didn't know the German Right-Back and didn't know who Mats Hummels was, so now we're educating you. Just say "thank you", will you?
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Post by Guest Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:10 am

You guys all know how highly i think of Hummels and Lahm is right there with him in my book.... The other guys are all incomplete as one has speed, the other height, etc. 1/2 of the German defense is the best you can find in the world and the other 1/2 has clear weaknesses. Neuer helps erase some of the mistakes. But even he could only keep a clean sheet in 4 out of the 10 Euro qualifying games. Depth is an issue too.

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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:25 am

Depth an issue? With Mertesacker, Höwedes, Hummels, Boateng, Badstuber? Friedrich isn't dead yet either. Nah we're cool.

But I do agree on the clear weaknesses. Badstuber is slow as hell for example. But if partnered with Höwedes/Hummels/Boateng that shouldn't matter too much. Mertesacker isn't much of a playmaker. That shouldn't matter too much if partnered with Badstuber/Hummels. And so forth.

IMHO the reason for Germanys lack of clean sheets is the distinct focus on attacking football.

Joachim Löw himself said in an interview recently that he'd rather win 4-2 than 1-0.
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Post by Guest Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:35 am

Dropoff in ability between first team and backups is big. That's the depth issue. And god forbid either Lahm or Hummels get suspended or hurt.

Also, you won't win trophies if you can't play for a 1-0 or 1-1 result when needed. Eventually, teams like the Netherlands, France, Italy, England, Spain, etc. will be there and scoring will be hard. I disagree with Low if that's how he feels.

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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:37 am

IMHO we can replace anyone except Lahm. The dropoff is, in fact, minimal, just look at the recent couple of matches, we sometimes played with what would be considered our 3rd team, yet still dominated.

And outscoring England and Argentina worked at the WC, grinding down Ghana worked as well. And our NT has improved a LOT since the WC.

I really disagree about the depth. Losing Hummels will just mean starting Höwedes, Boateng or Mertesacker, all of whom are decent enough, if they got Piggy and Khedira in front of them, covering their asses.

And dear god did Khedira run his ass off against Belgium.
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Post by rwo power Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:46 am

Dr. Percival Faust wrote:xxxxxxxxxxx is either
a) Höwedes, meaning that there would only be 7 defenders in the squad, which frees up an additional CF spot
b) Träsch, who Jogi seems to rate higher than both Beck and especially Castro
c) Beck or Castro, who Jogi seems to rate lower than Höwedes, Träsch and even Cacau (not to mention Ramelow).
Well, I'd take a look at Marco Höger (22) from Schalke, too. I think he shows some promise, too, and he may be a midfielder, too, but his main position is RB. I would hope he'd get played a bit more and then he might be an option, too.
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Post by BeautifulGame Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:11 am

sportsczy wrote:Dropoff in ability between first team and backups is big. That's the depth issue. And god forbid either Lahm or Hummels get suspended or hurt.

If Hummels is injured Germany have the most inform CB partnership in Europe to replace.Hardly an issue.

U keep on insisting the cleen sheets in qualifiers but the German defence which is the same as Bayern has kept a cleen for nearly 1400 min.I dont think the Lahm - Badstuder - Hummels - Boeteng pairing played together in much in qualifiers.So the cleen sheets of Bayern (which were against far better opposition than qualifiers) is a far better reflection of Germany defense than the qualifiers.


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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:18 am

Cleansheets are not the be all( Except when Krul is involved :coffee: ) and end all just like assists are not the be all and end all for midfielders.......

Germany's defence is fine imo, id like to see Castro and Beck be given a chance but even so Howedes-Hummels-Boateng-Lahm is still a quality defence.....
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Post by Guest Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:23 am

I disagree. You can't compare club and NT football. Most European nations have tough teams... + you get national pride involved and the pressure of playing for your NT. Not downplaying Bayern's achievement; but the circumstances are night and day.

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