Balance and width Problems

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Post by Babun Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:37 pm

I'm talking about creating goal scoring chances from midfield, not how to back pass from AM to the last defender eco smile

In the last game, I heard many people critisize Ozil for his performance that he didn't come deep to help out etc. There is a basic problem with the current lineup. Our attackers are deprived of space in final third,the players need some genius moments to create goal scoring opportunities. we don't have a horde of footsal playing midgets so other solutions are welcome. Basically,

-----Alonso-----Coentrao----

Di Maria----Ozil------CR7----
-------------Benz-------------

The basic formation. Benz and Ozil have least of space from the front four.If you pass the ball to Ozil then he'll have at max 3 passing options upfront and two backwards. If you play him deeper:

-----Alonso-----Coentrao----
--------------Ozil--------------
Di Maria---------------CR7----
-------------Benz-------------

He'll have the same amount of passing opions with less chance of delievering the final ball Very Happy
Where does lie the real problem? We need someone on the left and someone on the right who creates width Very Happy
Without additional width and a wide passing option, moving Ozil deeper doesn't make sense. It would benefit Benz as well, both of them are double marked most of the time unless they attack through the wings or come very deep Very Happy

Current situation(I don't consider Coentrao a starter in midfield when Khedira is fit):
Balance and width Problems AbBdCeYaS
Marcelo doesn't run to the byline, he cuts in,CR7 doesn't go wide as well. On the other side, Di Maria cuts in 9/10 times Very Happy Ramos doesn't make runs to the byline either. All in all we don't have fullbacks who overlap to create width and no attacker who creates width consistently Very Happy Basically, you need Benz and Ozil in those tight spaces to create something with Marcelo as reinforcement from time to time. Di Maria is played deeper at the moment to balance out the attack. He struggles to bring the ball from midfield on the right to the attackers= another problem. We're too left sided and the middle of the final 3rd overcrowded.

The possible solution:

1.Drop Di Maria for someone who could really bring the ball from midfield to attack and stays wide= Coentrao (superior passing and linkup play, defensively solid).He would also cover more for Marcelo.
2. Play Arbeloa at rightback. Robocop is very solid defensively and makes very well timed runs (footballing brains) to create width. He could also cross if asked to (low or high).
3. Drop Carvalho (other reasons) to accomodate Ramos into CB role.

Example:
Balance and width Problems AbBdC5Maky

On the left, Marcelo will be the one to cut inside and Coentrao the one to go wide. Some would have problems with moving Benz/CR7 to the right. In our system the stinger (striker+winger) is the one scores most of the goals. If we move them to the right, you'll strip them of some creative duties and let them concentrate solely on goal scoring. Benz and Cr7 could interchange their roles as the game goes on. Benz is particularly overlap friendly, if he sees Arbeloa next to him, he'll use him 100% when attacking from the right. When attacking from the left Benz could stay in CF and CR7 make runs into free space to score Very Happy
Ramos inclusion into lineup instead of Carvalho would allow us to reduce the gap between midfield and defence= better pressing=more possession Very Happy
In essense, we lose out on one goal scorer (Di Maria) but we'll get a lot more balance in attack Very Happy
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Post by Guest Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:29 pm

Agree with everything you said. For a RB, Ramos almost never overlaps. With Di Maria as his partner there, i don't really blame him because Angel has no idea how to set up his RB (and himself) for overlaps. So in essence, the opponent can completely disregard our right side because they are tactically inept. Only time we do something over there is if Benz goes wide right with Ramos... then you start seeing a few things.

We just have too many people on the left and centrally... creates a lot of congestion with players. Khedira could help on the right too.

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Post by Babun Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:36 pm

sportsczy wrote:Agree with everything you said. For a RB, Ramos almost never overlaps. With Di Maria as his partner there, i don't really blame him because Angel has no idea how to set up his RB (and himself) for overlaps. So in essence, the opponent can completely disregard our right side because they are tactically inept. Only time we do something over there is if Benz goes wide right with Ramos... then you start seeing a few things.

We just have too many people on the left and centrally... creates a lot of congestion with players. Khedira could help on the right too.
Khedira attacks from the right Very Happy I finally finished the OP Very Happy Off to work,see you tonight eco smile
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Post by Adit Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:36 pm

Not really convincing,ozil could come alot deeper and dictate the tempo we play,something i have seen kaka doing when he is asked.I Have no problem with ozil playing his SS role but is it necessary to play that even when we are leading by goals?. He still has a long way to go in before we can call him a game dictating midfielder.

He rarely helps the midfield,which is a big concern for me.
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Post by Thimmy Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:10 pm

Imbalance and width problems..

Balance and width Problems Curiose101_1222808144

We don't have it Very Happy
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Post by Jack Daniels Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Thimmy wrote:Imbalance and width problems..

We don't have it Very Happy
This bastard never disappoint.. hahaha
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Post by the xcx Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:24 pm

Thimmy wrote:Imbalance and width problems..



We don't have it Very Happy
haha, good one sir.
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Post by Babun Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:33 pm

Adit wrote:Not really convincing,ozil could come alot deeper and dictate the tempo we play,something i have seen kaka doing when he is asked.I Have no problem with ozil playing his SS role but is it necessary to play that even when we are leading by goals?. He still has a long way to go in before we can call him a game dictating midfielder.

He rarely helps the midfield,which is a big concern for me.
Kaka? Very Happy
Ok, some basics of 4-3-3. The midfielders do almost everything, the front three are more like well rounded strikers than wingers+CF. The problem, for 4-3-3 to be effective you need gaps between the defenders. They don't magically appear out of no where, you have to stretch that defence. To stretch the defence you need at least one wide midfielder or someone who goes wide and overlaping fullbacks. If there're no gaps=no overlaping fullbacks= no space for through balls or whatever. The team will have xx % possession but wont score goals unless by some individual magic moment.
Your Kaka can't turn with the ball at his feet towards the opposition. He back passes quite often. Second, we were leading when he came on against tired defenders. Start him against a half decent parked bus, we'll have all the control in the world but no goals scored. Farca games are perfect examples.
Ozil solves the width problems when he goes wide himself and all other issues by himself. In current system, playing him deeper makes only in one condition, we lead by 2+ goals and want the opponent keep from scoring (keep away game). If you dop him into a 4-3-3 without additional width, we won't score goals, simple as that. Mou would have done this, he isn't stupid Very Happy

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Post by Adit Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:49 pm

babun1024 wrote:
Kaka? Very Happy
Ok, some basics of 4-3-3. The midfielders do almost everything, the front three are more like well rounded strikers than wingers+CF. The problem, for 4-3-3 to be effective you need gaps between the defenders. They don't magically appear out of no where, you have to stretch that defence. To stretch the defence you need at least one wide midfielder or someone who goes wide and overlaping fullbacks. If there're no gaps=no overlaping fullbacks= no space for through balls or whatever. The team will have xx % possession but wont score goals unless by some individual magic moment.
Your Kaka can't turn with the ball at his feet towards the opposition. He back passes quite often. Second, we were leading when he came on against tired defenders. Start him against a half decent parked bus, we'll have all the control in the world but no goals scored. Farca games are perfect examples.
Ozil solves the width problems when he goes wide himself and all other issues by himself. In current system, playing him deeper makes only in one condition, we lead by 2+ goals and want the opponent keep from scoring (keep away game). If you dop him into a 4-3-3 without additional width, we won't score goals, simple as that. Mou would have done this, he isn't stupid Very Happy

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This is exactly what im saying,drop deep and maintain possession when we are leading,try to control the game.Goals will come,at least opposition will not have the ball to score.
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Post by Babun Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:20 pm

Adit wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
Kaka? Very Happy
Ok, some basics of 4-3-3. The midfielders do almost everything, the front three are more like well rounded strikers than wingers+CF. The problem, for 4-3-3 to be effective you need gaps between the defenders. They don't magically appear out of no where, you have to stretch that defence. To stretch the defence you need at least one wide midfielder or someone who goes wide and overlaping fullbacks. If there're no gaps=no overlaping fullbacks= no space for through balls or whatever. The team will have xx % possession but wont score goals unless by some individual magic moment.
Your Kaka can't turn with the ball at his feet towards the opposition. He back passes quite often. Second, we were leading when he came on against tired defenders. Start him against a half decent parked bus, we'll have all the control in the world but no goals scored. Farca games are perfect examples.
Ozil solves the width problems when he goes wide himself and all other issues by himself. In current system, playing him deeper makes only in one condition, we lead by 2+ goals and want the opponent keep from scoring (keep away game). If you dop him into a 4-3-3 without additional width, we won't score goals, simple as that. Mou would have done this, he isn't stupid Very Happy

You're asking to drive a car without tires just because it has a BMW motor eco smile
This is exactly what im saying,drop deep and maintain possession when we are leading,try to control the game.Goals will come,at least opposition will not have the ball to score.
When we're a goal or 2 up yeah otherwise I don't enjoy watching Spain. If you do it's your personal preference Very Happy
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Post by Babun Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:41 pm

Bump to this. Today, it might get more attention Very Happy
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Post by Mr Nick09 Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:49 pm

There were issues with width, but the players today were completely off within the system, i think that was more the issue. DI Maria, Carv, Coentrao, Ozil... all bad. No pressing, No passing.

quite an awful turn around. Those issues exist in general but today's context was a bit different.
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Post by S32TABLANCA Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:12 pm

I think we should drop Carvalho in defence and put Khedira in midfield. On the right, we should try Kaka, Higuain, Callejon, maybe even Coentrao (in the Pipita option, we would move Benz to the right) alternate those and see if it works. When Di Maria gets his shit together, Sahin gets back, and (if?) Carvalho gets better we can reinclude them.

Also, stinger. I like it. Cristiano is our Stinger. Very Happy
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Post by The Madrid One Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:05 am

is coentrao a real big problem atm?

coentrao and carvalho.. carvalho is not good enough anymore and coentrao is not good enough yet..

if he was never ment to be played in a double pivot then its obvious because hes bee leaving alonso alone, midfield has been over run, and the connection between it and the attack has gone shit, hence the now 2 consecutive under par games from ozil.
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Post by VanDeezNuts Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:25 am

i really think its the fact that coentrao is not a true CM, he is out of his depth in this position. makes other players look bad imo.

but tbh this thread has had alot of weight lately in our recent games. the issue is evident

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Post by The Madrid One Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:44 am

the issue is that we have no midfield, no good defense, not best offense.

khedira was out and coentrao cant play double pivot leaving alonso to deal with the opposing team. weve had no substance,are we really that vulnerable and incomplete?!
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Post by Babun Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:15 am

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:There were issues with width, but the players today were completely off within the system, i think that was more the issue. DI Maria, Carv, Coentrao, Ozil... all bad. No pressing, No passing.

quite an awful turn around. Those issues exist in general but today's context was a bit different.
It was no different. We tried to get physical, they were more physical Very Happy In that context you try to control the midfield with passing, we tried to... Coentrao is no mid, Ozil isn't a CM neither so the result was pretty meh. It's just like I predicted a 4-3-3 without additional width is useless Very Happy
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Post by Guest Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:18 am

Ramos and Marcelo never overlap. Marcelo always cuts to the middle and Ramos doesn't even bother since Di Maria has no idea how to use him. That's the width problem right there.

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Post by Babun Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:29 am

sportsczy wrote:Ramos and Marcelo never overlap. Marcelo always cuts to the middle and Ramos doesn't even bother since Di Maria has no idea how to use him. That's the width problem right there.
I watched the Bayern game parallel to ours yesterday. As soon as they get the ball they stretch their opponent all over the pitch Very Happy
Look at their positioning for both goals:


We have the fullbacks needed in Marcelo and Arbeloa Very Happy
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Post by guest7 Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:22 pm

Marcelo and Ronny overlaps in their own way, they do it by Marcelo cutting in and Ronaldo going wider and overlapping, then Ronaldo passing/cutting in

Btw today we played with more width (even ramos-di maria overlapping) but Özil had a bad game. I swear everytime Özil has a bad game we lose our shine... He is basicly the final pass, the killer pass etc, when we dont get that our goalscoring chances are not as many / good.
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Post by Guest Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:25 pm

omarish wrote:Marcelo and Ronny overlaps in their own way, they do it by Marcelo cutting in and Ronaldo going wider and overlapping, then Ronaldo passing/cutting in

Btw today we played with more width (even ramos-di maria overlapping) but Özil had a bad game. I swear everytime Özil has a bad game we lose our shine... He is basicly the final pass, the killer pass etc, when we dont get that our goalscoring chances are not as many / good.

That's really not overlapping. I consider overlapping as hard runs by the fullback close to the sideline towards the corner flag. We don't do that much at all.

Reason that the shine goes off is that CR7 and Benz become playmakers and Di Maria/Ozil become the finishers... they can't finish efficiently! It's not a good tradeoff in every sense.

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Post by Guest Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:26 pm

babun1024 wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Ramos and Marcelo never overlap. Marcelo always cuts to the middle and Ramos doesn't even bother since Di Maria has no idea how to use him. That's the width problem right there.
I watched the Bayern game parallel to ours yesterday. As soon as they get the ball they stretch their opponent all over the pitch Very Happy
Look at their positioning for both goals:


We have the fullbacks needed in Marcelo and Arbeloa Very Happy

Yep. You take 2-3 defenders out of the box when you have the wing player and fullback attacking the corner flag with purpose. Opens up all kinds of space in the middle. Makes football simple.

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Post by guest7 Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:28 pm

sportsczy wrote:
omarish wrote:Marcelo and Ronny overlaps in their own way, they do it by Marcelo cutting in and Ronaldo going wider and overlapping, then Ronaldo passing/cutting in

Btw today we played with more width (even ramos-di maria overlapping) but Özil had a bad game. I swear everytime Özil has a bad game we lose our shine... He is basicly the final pass, the killer pass etc, when we dont get that our goalscoring chances are not as many / good.

That's really not overlapping. I consider overlapping as hard runs by the fullback close to the sideline towards the corner flag. We don't do that much at all.

Reason that the shine goes off is that CR7 and Benz become playmakers and Di Maria/Ozil become the finishers... they can't finish efficiently! It's not a good tradeoff in every sense.

Sure, Benzema created alot, but Ronaldo missed 2 good chances, one vs one. Ronaldo should have taken one with him.

Özil had a bad game IMO, and like I said when he doesn't create our goals arent as many
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Post by Adit Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:41 pm

Actually if you watch carefully you will understand why our team lacked control over the game.Coentrao leaving xabi is the problem in midfield ,what can xabi do alone? he aint xavi to leave his marker.He needs space to play make,that space should be provided by his partner,instead coentrao is far out wide playing like a AM. Marcelo's excessive forward runs makes our defense looks bad that it actually is.

Balance and width Problems Ffsq
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Post by Babun Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:32 am

babun1024 wrote:
Adit wrote:Not really convincing,ozil could come alot deeper and dictate the tempo we play,something i have seen kaka doing when he is asked.I Have no problem with ozil playing his SS role but is it necessary to play that even when we are leading by goals?. He still has a long way to go in before we can call him a game dictating midfielder.

He rarely helps the midfield,which is a big concern for me.
Kaka? Very Happy
Ok, some basics of 4-3-3. The midfielders do almost everything, the front three are more like well rounded strikers than wingers+CF. The problem, for 4-3-3 to be effective you need gaps between the defenders. They don't magically appear out of no where, you have to stretch that defence. To stretch the defence you need at least one wide midfielder or someone who goes wide and overlaping fullbacks. If there're no gaps=no overlaping fullbacks= no space for through balls or whatever. The team will have xx % possession but wont score goals unless by some individual magic moment.
Your Kaka can't turn with the ball at his feet towards the opposition. He back passes quite often. Second, we were leading when he came on against tired defenders. Start him against a half decent parked bus, we'll have all the control in the world but no goals scored. Farca games are perfect examples.
Ozil solves the width problems when he goes wide himself and all other issues by himself. In current system, playing him deeper makes only in one condition, we lead by 2+ goals and want the opponent keep from scoring (keep away game). If you dop him into a 4-3-3 without additional width, we won't score goals, simple as that. Mou would have done this, he isn't stupid
Very Happy

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I'm quoting myself for you Adit Very Happy If you don't overlap you need Ozil so far upfront to establish a link for goal scoring. We had total control when Khedira was on but no real goal scoring opportunities Very Happy
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