Another quote - this time from Ten Action.

Question to Carlton Palmer - Why didn't Mourinho splash the cash this summer to try harder to bridge the quality gap with Barcelona?

Answer from Carlton Palmer - Mourinho knows that no matter how much money he gets to spend he cannot buy Messi, Xavi or Iniesta.

messixaviesta wrote:Another quote - this time from Ten Action.

Question to Carlton Palmer - Why didn't Mourinho splash the cash this summer to try harder to bridge the quality gap with Barcelona?

Answer from Carlton Palmer - Mourinho knows that no matter how much money he gets to spend he cannot buy Messi, Xavi or Iniesta.

On that note, I don't know how much more Madrid can improve tbh, only in defense can I see them bettering themselves through transfers

does anyone e know why xavi was on the bench ?

and why didnt villa start?is pedro the more favoured one and is it actually villa who will be fighting for his place?

how the hell did pep have the guts to play 3 defenders including 2 makeshifts,
2 debutants and thiago in place of xavi?

I think Pep showed clearly that he considers every player as equally qualified for the starting 11.
Bar Messi I expect everyone to be subject to rotation.

I don’t think he has any favourites really.
As for the 3 man defence it was a far better option than having Fontas or Mascherano as RB.
Pep overall counted on the midfield’s workrate to support the 3man defence and so it happened

sagnik92 wrote:does anyone e know why xavi was on the bench ?

and why didnt villa start?is pedro the more favoured one and is it actually villa who will be fighting for his place?

how the hell did pep have the guts to play 3 defenders including 2 makeshifts,
2 debutants and thiago in place of xavi?

1. A few reasons for Xavi on the bench. Its only been 2 days of recovery, he's getting old. This is why we bought Fabregas, so that he could fill in for Xavi so that the god is always fresh when we need him. I believe Pep will adopt more of a rotational system this year as well, both Xavi and Iniesta will play less.

Why Thiago then? Pep was playing a 3-4-3 diamond with Thiago as a right midfielder. Xavi would be wasted out there and it actually provided a good opportunity to utilise Thiago's abilities. He's good at dribbling, is fast (got back pretty well today) and can operate as a supportive winger. He played the role perfectly, and was basically man of the match. Each role actually suited the players on the field (Iniesta, Cesc, Thiago) more than Xavi.

2. Again, I think it has to do with the formation he used. Without the normal fullbacks who generally provide most of the width while Villa and Pedro cut inside, his front 2 forwards stayed wider and did more dribbles along the wings. So he decided Alexis and Pedro were best for this. Villa likes to come in a lot, and would have crowded an already full midfield. When he came on he was good though, and I didn't think Pedro was great again.

Pep's just rotating, but he isn't blind. If he thinks Villa and Alexis outplay Pedro, I think he'll play those two.

billy_gr wrote:
Bar Messi I expect everyone to be subject to rotation.

Double underline that sentence. It really is the essence of our team composition this entire season. The idea is to give everyone game time as far as possible and make everyone feel part of the team by having contributed enough. Still if a few of them cannot be accomodated then perhaps they will be moving on by next summer. This is also connected to the reason for not buying a CB. A few of us here immediately said throw Keita out. Pep probably never even considered the idea. The way the team is working this season Keita seems to be a little more important than before or at least not less. He probably is going to be preferred second choice DM rather than Mascherano. Besides he will do his various utility roles as a substitute. Mascherano and Busquets will do some time in CB positions as well. So now we have 3 potential DMs, 6 potential CBs ( although I have doubts how much Pep trusts Fontas ), 3 potential LBs and 3 potential RBs. Although as far as RB is concerned that position will likely not be rotated partly due to D.Alves' extraordinary physical levels except perhaps when there is a tactical change. We of course have 4 potential CMs/AMs and 4 potential wing forwards. The only constant is Lionel Messi as the false number 9 and of course Valdes as the goalkeeper but even he will not play the cup games.

So based on my previous post let's break it up into crystal clear terms.


False Number 9 - Messi ( IRREPLACEABLE )

Wing forwards - Villa, Pedro, A.Sanchez, Afellay

CM/AM - Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Thiago

DM - Busquets, Keita, Mascherano

RB - D.Alves, Adriano, Maxwell

LB - Abidal, Adriano, Maxwell

CB - Pique, Puyol, Abidal, Busquets, Mascherano, Fontas

GK - Valdes, Pinto

Hopefully not but if Messi is ever injured I expect Pep to play either A.Sanchez as the false number 9 which is less likely or Fabregas as a traditional number 10 in a 4-3-1-2 which is more likely. Messi is the only player in the squad who will probably never be rotated. Then comes Valdes but Pinto will play the cup games. D.Alves may be rotated perhaps only if there is a tactical change. Pique too will be rotated very rarely. Everyone else is probably totally subject to the merry go round for various possible reasons - age, injury proneness or simply to give game time to team mates.

Sanchez and Fabregas can play false 9 and i expect them to do so if Messi cant play for what ever reason....

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:
I am not one for tooting my own horn, but I saw 3 at the back as something that should happen, in fact I did feel it was by far the best choice.

My midfield wasnt spot on, we have a diamond shape with Thiago instead of Xavi but the principles were the same. Glad I was able to actually get something right.

In my opinion, every team that dares play with 2 strikers needs this same treatment and get punished for it with 3 at the back.

I had the same thought that your formation and tactics were nearly spot on with just two players different. The minute you suggested them I expected that would indeed be the way of approaching this match. I somehow don't think Pep still has enough confidence in Fontas. Hence three at the back seemed quite likely to me.

Just one minor doubt. I felt Keita was at the base of the diamond and Thiago at it's apex. Iniesta was on the left and Fabregas was on the right. They interchanged at times but most of the times it played out this way. Did you see it in some other way?

I didnt quite see it like that.

Keita certaintly was the guy who sat deep and was the base.

Inista, Cesc and Thiago all rotated in attacking positions, to a degree. Iniesta never went on the right and Thiago never on the left, both Cesc and those two (especially Iniesta and Cesc) changed positions.

At kick off, Cesc however played at the apex and for the first 10 minutes he played there exclusively, then Iniesta was there for a little. Generally speaking Messi dropped deep into that center space and Iniesta and Cesc took turns running in behind (which needed to happen because we played with Pedro and Sanchez very wide to stop their fullbacks providing the only width they would have) with Cesc being the man who ran behind the most. Thiago appeared in the center a few times, but less then the other two. His goal came from him running from the right and Cani not tracking him, he drifted into the center from there.

Defensively, Thiago was certaintly on the right and again Cesc and Iniesta took turns defending that other side.

A few words.
First a word of appreciation for Keita.I thought that his time at Barca was up.
I expected very less gametime for him this season but credit to the old warhouse.
He has played DM the last 2 games and performed admirable there.Showed the discipline to stay back and 2 very neat performances.
Thiago is a superstar.The guy is a monster and if Pep is fair I am under no doubt that he will give Fab a run for his money for the third midfielder's spot. Infact wouldnt be surprised if he outperforms Cesc with equal opportunities.
Sanchez needs to play with a bit more risk and freedom.ATM he is playing it way too safe.
Messi is well Messi.His passing is just sublime nowadays.Short and medium range and especially the final pass he is as good as anyone in the game.
Lionel Mr.Throughball Messi.

I agree with Alex that Sanchez should be given more freedom he has shown at Udinese he can run past people with ease and has a lovely through ball in his locker if given the license to do so....

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Nah, 3 at the back wont ever be our normal formation. Never underestimate the importance of the fullbacks, especially Alves.

Also, 90% of teams in La Liga play 4231...playing 3 at the back against that is terrible tactically.

The wings will get owned and we will have 3 centerbacks marking 1 striker.

As said, 3 at the back should only be used against 2 strikers, but it should be used near enough every time.

Once again a wonderful explanation. I suppose you are saying two strikers with no wingers. Against a conventional 4-4-2 with wingers, four at the back might still be the best.

No, even with wingers we would play this way.

Those wingers wont ever see the ball because of the pressure the back would be under. Alexis and Pedro would no allow any pass down the wings from fullback to winger and force the fullbacks to play inside. We would have 4 players in the center space and no defender has the ability or the guts to make a dribble under that much pressure and that much traffick. The wingers would never see the ball, they would be forced to come inside more and in turn encounter our 4 mids.

Defensively, they cant leave 2 vs 4 in the midfield either, they would come inside to help and when they retrive the ball they wont be in side areas because we would be playing in the center of pitch.

This isnt a perfect example, but I think you get the drift.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/21/chile-1-0-switzerland-chile-deserve-win-but-might-regret-wasting-chances/

I dont think Sanchez should of played with more freedom. In our formation, the only width came from him and Pedro and they had to resist the urge to make their usual runs and provide that width. Also, they had to stay wide because Villareal's only width comes from their fullbacks and those two staying wide and high curtailed that.

I think it might be fair to see Sanchez played within himself to a degree, but I consider that pretty normal for his first start in La Liga vs a CL side.

I think Pedro should be "dropped" for the next game to be frank.

He was terrible vs Porto and against Villareal he didnt past Zapata once, and got his crossed blocked every time but 1.

He also lost the ball more then anyone else, or so it seemed.

I think he still needs to get better at being effective in games he doesnt score in.

I understood why he was chosen over Villa, becase we needed 2 players up front to provide alot of width and he and Sanchez generally odo that better then Villa, but next game, if its fair, Pedro probably needs to come out.

If we need a player to create width, why not Afellay? He's faster and is better at dribbling past defenders

Of course, but he is injured.

I think Affelay would of been perfect for Villareal.

The Franchise wrote:Of course, but he is injured.

I think Affelay would of been perfect for Villareal.

Well as you probably know Sanchez and Afellay are more of traditional wingers than inside forwards and don't have the world class finishing of Villa Pedro and Messi though, and seeing as how many chances our midfielders create, it may be better to use the wingers that are better at finishing than ones that are better at creating space.

I was talking about the 343, in it, you need the 2 guys in the forward line to act as real wingers and create space because the midfield is very crowded and of course you dont have fullbacks to provide width either.

Oh ok, I thought we were talking about the next game

Ah, I see the confusion. Because I said Pedro should be dropped.

I think Pedro should be dropped just because for two games in a row he played quite poor and we got the depth to give someone else a chance.

I agree, he was pretty average at best, I'd like to see Afellay getting a chance as well.

The Franchise wrote:
I didnt quite see it like that.

Keita certaintly was the guy who sat deep and was the base.

Inista, Cesc and Thiago all rotated in attacking positions, to a degree. Iniesta never went on the right and Thiago never on the left, both Cesc and those two (especially Iniesta and Cesc) changed positions.

At kick off, Cesc however played at the apex and for the first 10 minutes he played there exclusively, then Iniesta was there for a little. Generally speaking Messi dropped deep into that center space and Iniesta and Cesc took turns running in behind (which needed to happen because we played with Pedro and Sanchez very wide to stop their fullbacks providing the only width they would have) with Cesc being the man who ran behind the most. Thiago appeared in the center a few times, but less then the other two. His goal came from him running from the right and Cani not tracking him, he drifted into the center from there.

Defensively, Thiago was certaintly on the right and again Cesc and Iniesta took turns defending that other side.

That makes sense. The problem is that I hardly ever saw Thiago on the right at least in the beginning period while Fabregas did come to the right. That's what confused me.

I also felt that Iniesta played a sort of a mini Xavi role which is very different from his normal role. Just a few days back in the Uefa Super Cup he played the Iniesta role to the extreme with exceptional work rate and literally covering every blade of grass on the pitch with or without the ball. Here he was much more controlled often dropping back so that Thiago and Fabregas could go forward. In a sense he was trying to control the game from deep some times which is a Xavi speciality. A good example of this is the multi-pass move resulting in Messi's goal that is being praised a lot. Here Iniesta played like the architect of the entire move controlling it from deep, switching play between flanks and delivering the final pass. Thus it made sense when Iniesta was replaced by Xavi because in this system it was a little bit of a like for like substitution even though their normal playing style is quite different from each other.

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:
I didnt quite see it like that.

Keita certaintly was the guy who sat deep and was the base.

Inista, Cesc and Thiago all rotated in attacking positions, to a degree. Iniesta never went on the right and Thiago never on the left, both Cesc and those two (especially Iniesta and Cesc) changed positions.

At kick off, Cesc however played at the apex and for the first 10 minutes he played there exclusively, then Iniesta was there for a little. Generally speaking Messi dropped deep into that center space and Iniesta and Cesc took turns running in behind (which needed to happen because we played with Pedro and Sanchez very wide to stop their fullbacks providing the only width they would have) with Cesc being the man who ran behind the most. Thiago appeared in the center a few times, but less then the other two. His goal came from him running from the right and Cani not tracking him, he drifted into the center from there.

Defensively, Thiago was certaintly on the right and again Cesc and Iniesta took turns defending that other side.

That makes sense. The problem is that I hardly ever saw Thiago on the right at least in the beginning period while Fabregas did come to the right. That's what confused me.

I also felt that Iniesta played a sort of a mini Xavi role which is very different from his normal role. Just a few days back in the Uefa Super Cup he played the Iniesta role to the extreme with exceptional work rate and literally covering every blade of grass on the pitch with or without the ball. Here he was much more controlled often dropping back so that Thiago and Fabregas could go forward. In a sense he was trying to control the game from deep some times which is a Xavi speciality. A good example of this is the multi-pass move resulting in Messi's goal that is being praised a lot. Here Iniesta played like the architect of the entire move controlling it from deep, switching play between flanks and delivering the final pass. Thus it made sense when Iniesta was replaced by Xavi because in this system it was a little bit of a like for like substitution even though their normal playing style is quite different from each other.

Well Thiago's goal came from him going right to center, and he did alot of good defensive work down that side.

Anyway, the aim of the formation was to circulate passes in the center of the pitch, so naturally you need lots of movement and that leads to players not being set in positions. Thiago, Cesc, Messi and Iniesta were the ones who played in this zone and with that came lots of changing of position.

When the formation is like this and there are lots of passes in the center of the pitch, roles change and that might explain the difference you noticed in Iniesta's role compared to normal.

The Franchise wrote:
Well Thiago's goal came from him going right to center, and he did alot of good defensive work down that side.

Anyway, the aim of the formation was to circulate passes in the center of the pitch, so naturally you need lots of movement and that leads to players not being set in positions. Thiago, Cesc, Messi and Iniesta were the ones who played in this zone and with that came lots of changing of position.

When the formation is like this and there are lots of passes in the center of the pitch, roles change and that might explain the difference you noticed in Iniesta's role compared to normal.

Nice explanation. I saw Cesc on the right a few times even though he was hardly ever on the left. However he mostly moved forward rather than doing defensive work. So in that sense saying Cesc was at the apex of the diamond perhaps makes more sense.