sportsczy wrote:

It has several points:
1- To create a physical basis for the refs to call games. If the game is tough, the refs can't call everything and will call only the plays that are tougher than others. So a lot of the diving infractions just won't get called. You set the tone of the game basically.
2- The opponent will stop looking for diving opportunities as much if they know that there is a good likelihood that a hard play is coming. Self preservation kicks in. They actually worry more about getting out the way then trying to play act.
3- Compound psychological affect of physical play... after a while, players get tired of being pushed and beaten. They either look to avoid the contact or try to retaliate. Either way, you're taking the players out of their usual comfort zone.

Because Barca pushes the edges of legality with their tactics, Madrid does the same. Before Mou, we were trying to take the high road and refused to employ the proper measures... it frustrated the hell out of me. Not true anymore.

Your first point makes a lot of sense and i have seen it happening as well.

The second point is not working as you have explained. We still saw Mascherano go down easy. No one looked out for self-preservation, as they all went for 50-50 balls. We saw, Cesc, Pique, Messi, Pedro etc, milk their fouls and indulge in some theatrics.

Infact in the second leg, i was surprised to see some hard tackling by Barcelona's players.

I completely understand the hard tackling taking players out of comfort zone and breaking up the tiki-taka. But it does not instill fear in the players at the highest level!

kiranr wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

It has several points:
1- To create a physical basis for the refs to call games. If the game is tough, the refs can't call everything and will call only the plays that are tougher than others. So a lot of the diving infractions just won't get called. You set the tone of the game basically.
2- The opponent will stop looking for diving opportunities as much if they know that there is a good likelihood that a hard play is coming. Self preservation kicks in. They actually worry more about getting out the way then trying to play act.
3- Compound psychological affect of physical play... after a while, players get tired of being pushed and beaten. They either look to avoid the contact or try to retaliate. Either way, you're taking the players out of their usual comfort zone.

Because Barca pushes the edges of legality with their tactics, Madrid does the same. Before Mou, we were trying to take the high road and refused to employ the proper measures... it frustrated the hell out of me. Not true anymore.

Your first point makes a lot of sense and i have seen it happening as well.

The second point is not working as you have explained. We still saw Mascherano go down easy. No one looked out for self-preservation, as they all went for 50-50 balls. We saw, Cesc, Pique, Messi, Pedro etc, milk their fouls and indulge in some theatrics.

Infact in the second leg, i was surprised to see some hard tackling by Barcelona's players.

I completely understand the hard tackling taking players out of comfort zone and breaking up the tiki-taka. But it does not instill fear in the players at the highest level!

that's the 3rd part of it, psychologically, it's getting hard on them as well. they are taking a beating whenever they play, and it's not pleasant, specially when they hate us as well.

ToEy wrote:Thats why i put a caveat there, I dont know his intentions 100%, but then again some of you guys do mind reading when its "busquet's mono saga".

I wonder what else he could've said in Spanish similar to "mono" which would've made sense in that given situation ... I remember posters around here trying to guess but nothing which came close to mono made any sense.

Anyway, it's an old and petty argument. I was just wondering ...

kiranr wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

It has several points:
1- To create a physical basis for the refs to call games. If the game is tough, the refs can't call everything and will call only the plays that are tougher than others. So a lot of the diving infractions just won't get called. You set the tone of the game basically.
2- The opponent will stop looking for diving opportunities as much if they know that there is a good likelihood that a hard play is coming. Self preservation kicks in. They actually worry more about getting out the way then trying to play act.
3- Compound psychological affect of physical play... after a while, players get tired of being pushed and beaten. They either look to avoid the contact or try to retaliate. Either way, you're taking the players out of their usual comfort zone.

Because Barca pushes the edges of legality with their tactics, Madrid does the same. Before Mou, we were trying to take the high road and refused to employ the proper measures... it frustrated the hell out of me. Not true anymore.

Your first point makes a lot of sense and i have seen it happening as well.

The second point is not working as you have explained. We still saw Mascherano go down easy. No one looked out for self-preservation, as they all went for 50-50 balls. We saw, Cesc, Pique, Messi, Pedro etc, milk their fouls and indulge in some theatrics.

Infact in the second leg, i was surprised to see some hard tackling by Barcelona's players.

I completely understand the hard tackling taking players out of comfort zone and breaking up the tiki-taka. But it does not instill fear in the players at the highest level!

All these points don't always work too well... there are lot of variable. But as a whole, they work enough. You notice that the tone of the games are changing more and more as the Madrid players become more and more efficient at implementing Mou's system.

Other than the crazy last plays and bench clearing brawl, i thought the last two classicos were a lot of fun. We did a lot better in the midfield and possession which allowed us to attack. You had both teams going for goal. There was absolutely no anti-game tactics.

Next one is going to be really fascinating as Barca will be in much better form and Madrid should have a better Coentrao and a recovered Sahin.

wigglesworth wrote:

emassy wrote:Mourinho is still the man to watch out for.like it or not.

That's very difficult if he pokes your eyes out.

Don't worry. He hasn't put his hand on any Italian eye ... yet.

Surag.Blueguy wrote:

ToEy wrote:

Surag.Blueguy wrote:

ToEy wrote:owever, now I have 2 juve fans with 2 different side of the story about transfers in Italy, anyone else can confirm?

Why are you generalizing ?I was just talking about that particular deal..

What about other deals? Like the Lucio, milito, sneijder ones for Inter? Who chooses the player? Mourinho or Moratti?

See a coach presents a list of transfer targets to the sporting director..And its the job of the director to negotiate the transfer fee and agree personal terms etc..

One thing i can tell you sure is Moratti had 100 % faith in what Mourinho was doing..This just gives an indication that he was not fully involved in transfers..The eto'o-Ibra financially happened to be such a great deal and it would have been hard to pass off such a deal..

Like i said Mou,Branca and Moratti were in consensus with most of the transfers..

And let me tell you one more thing from juve's side..By now Bastos and Andreas Beck would have been Juve players..Guess who blocked it ?The coach Antonio Conte..

So what you are basically saying is that, the manager presents a list to the sporting director, and the sporting director will choose from the list/make the deal happen? Suppose the managing director succeed in getting the deal done, the manager still has the power to block it? Honest question, if this is the case, why is it that juve fans kept blaming the transfers of melos and his such on the director,not the manager? Surely the manager presented melo and his likes on the list isn't it?

Mou prefers english-style management, where the coach also makes personnel decisions. He left Inter because of this (and the money methinks) and he was also about to leave Madrid if we hadn't changed our structure to accommodate him (got rid of Valdano unfortunately).

I personally prefer a separation of power because the long term prospects of a club don't always coincide with the much shorter perspective that manager's have (pressure to win immediately). But it's worked in the EPL and is working in Madrid. So what do i know lol.

Yes the coach presents the list to the DS but it also determines the ability of the director if he can execute the deal or not..

Bastos and Beck were all but Juve players..Personal terms were agreed and we were close to agreeing a fee with the teams as well but Conte wasnt interested in both of them ,hence we pulled out from the deal..

See i havent blamed the director one bit..But i can say why some juve fans are upset at the director thats because of the DS's inability to execute "high-profile" deals..In a sense that he always tries to be a cheapskate offering less than what is expected and we end up losing out on him due to various reasons like other prestigiuos clubs interested and offering more money and stuff like that..

And to add one more thing,it depends from coach to coach also..And so far Conte has had a lot of involvement in transfers..

Sorry but couldnt comprehend the last line..excuse me..

@ Nick, yes i agree.

@ Sportsczy

Madrid is clearly improving. There is no doubt about that. I, too, agree that the next clasico will be even better than these matches.

Surag.Blueguy wrote:Yes the coach presents the list to the DS but it also determines the ability of the director if he can execute the deal or not..

Bastos and Beck were all but Juve players..Personal terms were agreed and we were close to agreeing a fee with the teams as well but Conte wasnt interested in both of them ,hence we pulled out from the deal..

See i havent blamed the director one bit..But i can say why some juve fans are upset at the director thats because of the DS's inability to execute "high-profile" deals..In a sense that he always tries to be a cheapskate offering less than what is expected and we end up losing out on him due to various reasons like other prestigiuos clubs interested and offering more money and stuff like that..

Sorry but couldnt comprehend the last line..excuse me..

The last line simply meant that at that point of time, juve fans were unhappy with the transfer of melo for example. It meant that melo surely must be on the list for the sporting director to act upon. If it was a bad transfer, why the juve fans turned against the director but not the manager when the manager put melo in the list in the 1st place?

As for the rest, I can understand why you are saying...thanks

Maybe i am being stupid asking you this but at what point if time ?

You mean Melo's transfer to Galatasaray ?If it is so..

Actually Conte wasnt Melo's preferred choice to be honest..He wanted a more dynamic midfielder alongside Pirlo and Melo was just too slow and tempermental and hence he was sold..

The fans were dissapointed for the reason that he was shipped out on loan and we dint manage to get immediate cash from his transfer..Hence were harping on Marotta..

Surag.Blueguy wrote:Maybe i am being stupid asking you this but at what point if time ?

You mean Melo's transfer to Galatasaray ?If it is so..

Actually Conte wasnt Melo's preferred choice to be honest..He wanted a more dynamic midfielder alongside Pirlo and Melo was just too slow and tempermental and hence he was sold..

The fans were dissapointed for the reason that he was shipped out on loan and we dint manage to get immediate cash from his transfer..Hence were harping on Marotta..

No not when he was shipped out, I mean when he came in (basically not only melo, but many of the transfers when you guys just came back up to SerieA)

ToEy wrote:

Surag.Blueguy wrote:Maybe i am being stupid asking you this but at what point if time ?

You mean Melo's transfer to Galatasaray ?If it is so..

Actually Conte wasnt Melo's preferred choice to be honest..He wanted a more dynamic midfielder alongside Pirlo and Melo was just too slow and tempermental and hence he was sold..

The fans were dissapointed for the reason that he was shipped out on loan and we dint manage to get immediate cash from his transfer..Hence were harping on Marotta..

No not when he was shipped out, I mean when he came in (basically not only melo, but many of the transfers when you guys just came back up to SerieA)

Yes i get what you're saying..There are some thnigs behind this which i like to add..


Frankly some of the fans were unhappy with this transfer at the beginning because we overpaid for him..25m was just too high atleast from my opinion...The coach actually wanted d-agostino over him but had to settle for Melo since Udinese were asking too much.

And Melo dint justify his price tag either ..He was a total flop in his first season..And the coach got sacked for poor results in the end dint he !

And Secco had committed many errors like this in the past so all the fans sort took out all the frustration on him..lol

Also like i said IT DEPENDS FROM COACH TO COACH..some coaches like to involve themselves in transfers and some leave it aside to the sporting director to do his job..

kiranr wrote:I am just saying that if you are going to call him tactical genius, then Wenger, SAF, Hiddink and some other top coaches should also be called one, because he has not shown anything that those manager have not shown (sometimes, maybe more)

Wenger has never won a cl, Hiddink won a European cup in the late 80s but the Euro Cup was a different monster than the champs league

Jose on the other hand has won two champions leagues, both with teams who really should not have won it

right there that is "showing something that those managers have not shown"

Then we have the fact that he's won 2 Trebles and 2 Doubles, winning League Titles in 3 different leagues, winning the champions league with two different teams, his ridiculously long streak of games at home without a loss....

Again, there are plenty of things Jose has done/shown that those other managers haven't, you just aren't opening your eyes to them

bhends wrote:

kiranr wrote:I am just saying that if you are going to call him tactical genius, then Wenger, SAF, Hiddink and some other top coaches should also be called one, because he has not shown anything that those manager have not shown (sometimes, maybe more)

Wenger has never won a cl, Hiddink won a European cup in the late 80s but the Euro Cup was a different monster than the champs league

Jose on the other hand has won two champions leagues, both with teams who really should not have won it

right there that is "showing something that those managers have not shown"

Then we have the fact that he's won 2 Trebles and 2 Doubles, winning League Titles in 3 different leagues, winning the champions league with two different teams, his ridiculously long streak of games at home without a loss....

Again, there are plenty of things Jose has done/shown that those other managers haven't, you just aren't opening your eyes to them

Winning in 3 leagues and winning with one team over many multiple years is the same for me.

Del Bosque won the world cup and the La Liga and the CL. See, there are many who have won with different teams in the different competitions. Marcelo Lippi has won the world cup and many other competitions, doubles at that.

Mourinho went to Chelsea. He had full support of Roman to purchase any player that he wanted. He went to Inter, where he had the full support of Moratti and now he is in Madrid and he has the full support of the board and has been provided enough funds to bring any player that he desires and the transfer budgets which are very high.

Ferguson won the league with teams that were much weaker than a Mourinho team. Winning is not a yard stick to label a manager as genius. He is a brilliant manager, no doubt, but i dont believe there is anything seperating him from other top managers.

@Kiranr, Mourinho is labelled a genius because he is beating the odds and winning with teams that shouldnt be winning. His capacity to adapt, turn his players into monsters hungry for titles while being ready to do anything for him is quite admirable. Another factor that comes into argument is how fast he rose to success.

Surely, when a player like Messi at only 24 has already won so much, he is labelled a genius right? because he is not only able to show incredible talent, but he is also able to turn that talent into success, and to make it happen for himself. Incredibly underrated trait if you ask me.

We are all fans of top teams and winning come easy for us, but it's not. What he did with Porto was incredible, that much you can admit. He went to chelsea, and he turned them into champions on day one. How incredible is that!? he took them straight in Utd face and they won. Look at teams like City, it took them a long while to even get to where they are now, many managers and players, and they still have everything to prove.

With Inter he beat a legendary Barca side, he was against the odds again, and he won the whole thing. Those are incredible achievements, and the man is still a relatively young coach. Look how he is turning around Real Madrid, from the inside out, no matter how you perceive it, it's incredible stuff he is doing.

that's why he is labelled a genius. Winning with the same team over a long period of time is easier if you ask me. You get the time to build up whatever you want on a very extended period of time, you have a team settled in for years.

Mourinho does a 2-3 years job in one season. that's brilliant coaching, and it's not only what happens when you play sporting gijon on the weekend. Being a coach is about making choices and decisions, and when you have made as many as mourinho and have been this successful along the way, you are quite an exceptional coach.

Omniscient wrote:

emassy wrote:Many people picking on mou that he is causing violence,bt i will continue to encourage him to do more and worse. Now take a good look at this:
R.madrid had 3 penalties at bernabeu none were awarded.
*1stly,the ball that was played that hit abidal's hand in barca 18yrd box.
*2ndly,the ball that was played by abidal himself that hit his own hand in barca 18yrd box
*3rdly,the pull on ronaldo's leg by valdes which the referee and linesmen also ignored.
All these hapened at the bernabeu and no body is saying anything about the cheating. Its true we could win without a penalty,but its pressure that concedes penalty for a team afterall so,we earned it,and deserved to be awarded.
My point is why wont mourinho be angry to want to even kill someone when uefa,fifa and the referees are failing to conduct fairness.
I will support mou till death because the cheating is becoming too much and at the end they blame him for everything. Inspite we lost,we gave guardiola the toughest match of his life as a barca coach and left with our heads up. Go mou we re solidly behind you. Do i have a madridista witness in the house?

Basically, you're saying that you're solidly behind Mourinho and his violence because he's the coach of Real Madrid and you're a fanatically, blindly devoted Madridista.

What if he hires a hitman to cripple Iniesta?

What if he assaults Guardiola after the next Clasico?

Will you still be behind him?

It's amazing how thick people can be.

Supporting a club is like getting married,no turning backs,for better for worse,and if jose mourinho is finding it hard to get that assasin,i am on standby anyday,because i love my club. So yes,i will still be behind him and if you have a problem with that?,go to places.

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:@Kiranr, Mourinho is labelled a genius because he is beating the odds and winning with teams that shouldnt be winning. His capacity to adapt, turn his players into monsters hungry for titles while being ready to do anything for him is quite admirable. Another factor that comes into argument is how fast he rose to success.

So he is exceptional at motivating his players and selecting the correct tactics for his team. I explained his rise due to kind of projects he took up. Dont you think a manager like SAF or Capello, if given the reign of Chelsea and a lot of funds cannot make them champions?

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Surely, when a player like Messi at only 24 has already won so much, he is labelled a genius right? because he is not only able to show incredible talent, but he is also able to turn that talent into success, and to make it happen for himself. Incredibly underrated trait if you ask me.

Messi is not just about winning. Sure, winning is the main reason for all the accolades he is getting. But let me tell you that the first time i saw Messi, i turned into a fan. It was the way he played that was genius for me and not that he won so much.

I acknowledge Mourinho's genius in motivating his players to extreme levels. But that does not translate to being a tactical genius, right?

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:With Inter he beat a legendary Barca side, he was against the odds again, and he won the whole thing. Those are incredible achievements, and the man is still a relatively young coach. Look how he is turning around Real Madrid, from the inside out, no matter how you perceive it, it's incredible stuff he is doing.

Even Hiddink was close to beating Barcelona. Whatever the Barca fans say, i will be the first to admit that we had some luck in getting through. Similarly against Inter, we were a little short of luck in getting through to the final. Those were close games and do such close games decide the tactical genius of a person?

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:that's why he is labelled a genius. Winning with the same team over a long period of time is easier if you ask me. You get the time to build up whatever you want on a very extended period of time, you have a team settled in for years.

No it is not. SAF had to deal with understrength teams and still lead them to victories or came second at worst. An incredible achievement that in some people's opinion surpasses Mourinho's (for me it is equal).

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Mourinho does a 2-3 years job in one season. that's brilliant coaching, and it's not only what happens when you play sporting gijon on the weekend. Being a coach is about making choices and decisions, and when you have made as many as mourinho and have been this successful along the way, you are quite an exceptional coach.

Exceptional coach Nick. No doubt. But, only Babun addressed why he could be labelled a tactical genius.

How about we stop defending people who poke people in the eye from behind and agree that the action was wrong?

Anyways, what I dislike most about Mou is that he creates an atmosphere that is prone to these post match incidents.

RealMadrid till death.

kiranr wrote:So he is exceptional at motivating his players and selecting the correct tactics for his team. I explained his rise due to kind of projects he took up. Dont you think a manager like SAF or Capello, if given the reign of Chelsea and a lot of funds cannot make them champions?

Yes, it's part of it. The combination between how long he has been a coach, and how quickly he is able to turn to success is very impressive. He picks up titles everywhere he goes, and in a very short time, regardless of the expectations and pressure he gets the job done. So far he has done wonderfully in his career.

Exceptional coach Nick. No doubt. But, only Babun addressed why he could be labelled a tactical genius.

we were not arguing the same thing, i was explaining you why he is labelled a genius coach, not a tactical genius, which babun did.

Mourinho is a decent manager, but he does not have a patch on quality managers such as Gary Megson and Avram Grant.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:How about we stop defending people who poke people in the eye from behind and agree that the action was wrong?

Anyways, what I dislike most about Mou is that he creates an atmosphere that is prone to these post match incidents.

dude, who is stupid enough to defend that? he has been condemned pretty unanimously by everyone, madrid fans included.

Difference is, while we look at the whole thing that happened and you guys only pinpoint that select incident or only what madrid did wrong without discussing what barcelona did wrong.

The provocations and nagging by barcelona created atmosphere for this incident. Of course it wasnt a one way affair, both teams are responsible, both parties were involved at various level.

We do not pick on him. We simply mock his inferior managerial ability.

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:

kiranr wrote:So he is exceptional at motivating his players and selecting the correct tactics for his team. I explained his rise due to kind of projects he took up. Dont you think a manager like SAF or Capello, if given the reign of Chelsea and a lot of funds cannot make them champions?

Yes, it's part of it. The combination between how long he has been a coach, and how quickly he is able to turn to success is very impressive. He picks up titles everywhere he goes, and in a very short time, regardless of the expectations and pressure he gets the job done. So far he has done wonderfully in his career.

Exceptional coach Nick. No doubt. But, only Babun addressed why he could be labelled a tactical genius.

we were not arguing the same thing, i was explaining you why he is labelled a genius coach, not a tactical genius, which babun did.

The first part doesn't need to be explained nick Just go to wikipedia.org or somewhere similar and look at his achievement list :lol!:

cheesy wrote:Mourinho is a decent manager, but he does not have a patch on quality managers such as Gary Megson and Avram Grant.

You make mistakes like huntsman. First rule to trolling, don't let people find out you're a troll