Calcio Saga 21/22

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Post by Warrior Mon May 23, 2022 6:17 pm

Difference of points is a much better metric than total points. You neglect the context of each season to explain me that Pirlo was better last year... sorry no

Last season the league as a whole was absolute crap. Even Torino/Fiorentina became relegable while they usually compete

Allegri is competing against a better league overall, with a worst team. Vlahovic is a bust so far that's because his teammates cannot reach him with a pass.

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Post by M99 Mon May 23, 2022 6:45 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:Every member in the team and I do mean every member, deserves this trophy. Castelijo played once and gave us three points. Daniel Maldini is the reason we won once against Spezia (along with a rare Saladmaker or Diaz goal). Tatasuranu saved a penalty against Inter. I think we are the team with the most number of goal scorers, and that's a testament to the spirit of the team.


Don't forget this legend.

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Post by Lord Spencer Mon May 23, 2022 8:23 pm

Warrior wrote:Difference of points is a much better metric than total points. You neglect the context of each season to explain me that Pirlo was better last year... sorry no

Last season the league as a whole was absolute crap. Even Torino/Fiorentina became relegable while they usually compete

Allegri is competing against a better league overall, with a worst team. Vlahovic is a bust so far that's because his teammates cannot reach him with a pass.


This season, only one team in the top seven actually improved, and that's Milan. So in that context, last season was a tougher task to get CL football than this season, where all CL contenders declined from last year.

Basically, if this same Juve team played last year, they wouldn't have qualified for the CL.

Also, you are completely ignoring the trophies Pirlo won.

Note that I am not saying that Pirlo did a great job. However, in the context of a transitional year, he didn't actually do bad enough, and would have made more sense to continue the transition with him instead of spending money on a reactive coach just to do a worst job.
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Post by M99 Mon May 23, 2022 8:35 pm

Team of the season.

Maignan
Cuadrado-Bremer-Skriniar-Theo
Pellegrini-Brozovic-Milinkovic Savic
Osimhen-Immobile-Leao
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Post by rincon Mon May 23, 2022 8:55 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
Warrior wrote:Difference of points is a much better metric than total points. You neglect the context of each season to explain me that Pirlo was better last year... sorry no

Last season the league as a whole was absolute crap. Even Torino/Fiorentina became relegable while they usually compete

Allegri is competing against a better league overall, with a worst team. Vlahovic is a bust so far that's because his teammates cannot reach him with a pass.


This season, only one team in the top seven actually improved, and that's Milan. So in that context, last season was a tougher task to get CL football than this season, where all CL contenders declined from last year.

Basically, if this same Juve team played last year, they wouldn't have qualified for the CL.

Also, you are completely ignoring the trophies Pirlo won.

Note that I am not saying that Pirlo did a great job. However, in the context of a transitional year, he didn't actually do bad enough, and would have made more sense to continue the transition with him instead of spending money on a reactive coach just to do a worst job.

In no way did Pirlo do a better job than Allegri. There is this narrative of justice for Pirlo which is fine but let's not get carried away. We had Ronaldo to bail us out, and Chiesa. Simply Ronaldo's departure at the last minute totally derailed our season. A broken squad without a goal machine to keep us afloat. Even with him we relied on Napoli choking at the last minute to qualify for CL.

Allegri went ultra defensive to string results and as boring as it was it worked. Between October and May we were 1st in points tied with Milan iirc. It was painful to watch but it served to secure CL spots ahead of time.
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Post by rincon Mon May 23, 2022 8:58 pm

M99 wrote:Team of the season.

Maignan
Cuadrado-Bremer-Skriniar-Theo
Pellegrini-Brozovic-Milinkovic Savic
Osimhen-Immobile-Leao

Vlahovic for Osimhen
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Post by Warrior Mon May 23, 2022 9:55 pm

Pirlo was not ready for the job, his tactics were null and void, so he was fired. That is justice in my book

Now it sucks because club legend etc and it ruins the relation a bit. Well whoever hired him should have weighted the consequences of promoting someone with zero experience.

This season our squad was a big nothing especially post-Chiesa ACL. It is terrible and low IQ i swear sometimes they cannot string 2 passes together. Can't complete 5 meters forward passes. I saw it with my own eyes

To summarize my thoughts: with Max last season we finish higher, with Pirlo this season we fight for conference league spots. There is a limit to the incompetence one club can take.
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Post by Casciavit Tue May 24, 2022 3:19 am

Lord Spencer wrote:It's idiotic to want Ibra to retire when it's obvious he has a great effect on the players around him.

Playing a third of the season, he scored 8 goals and had 3 assists. One of those assists was for the Tonali goal against Lazio which arguably propelled us to the target. With a good knee, he is better at the build-up than Giroud and is a threat from set-pieces.

We wouldn't have won the title without him. Period.

Reminds me of the clowns who were glad to lose Pirlo and keep Van Bommel (not that MVB wasn't doing great, we should have kept both), only for Juve to take him and start a decade of dominance Laughing


He's our highest earner at 7M a year and he's incapable of starting a game without being injured the next one or needing to be subbed off shortly afterward.

If he wants to be a glorified cheer leader who gets subbed on in the last 10 minutes, sure, but not at that wage and not even close to it.

He's turning 41 and he's injury prone. He's served his purpose in this run. He led a group of young, inexperienced players and showed them what it means to be a champion and showed them what it means to wear the Milan shirt. The end result was we won the title, so he might as well go out on top.

This isn't nearly comparable to Pirlo in 2011. What's idiotic is thinking the moment he leaves everything will crumble, when we've gone on numerous win streaks without him. Laughing

Are the players suddenly going to forget everything they learned mentality-wise from him when he's gone? I'm not discrediting his influence within the squad, nor am I discrediting his impressive goal-scoring record, I'm just saying it's time to move on.
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Post by Lord Spencer Tue May 24, 2022 6:46 am

Casciavit wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:It's idiotic to want Ibra to retire when it's obvious he has a great effect on the players around him.

Playing a third of the season, he scored 8 goals and had 3 assists. One of those assists was for the Tonali goal against Lazio which arguably propelled us to the target. With a good knee, he is better at the build-up than Giroud and is a threat from set-pieces.

We wouldn't have won the title without him. Period.

Reminds me of the clowns who were glad to lose Pirlo and keep Van Bommel (not that MVB wasn't doing great, we should have kept both), only for Juve to take him and start a decade of dominance Laughing


He's our highest earner at 7M a year and he's incapable of starting a game without being injured the next one or needing to be subbed off shortly afterward.

If he wants to be a glorified cheer leader who gets subbed on in the last 10 minutes, sure, but not at that wage and not even close to it.

He's turning 41 and he's injury prone. He's served his purpose in this run. He led a group of young, inexperienced players and showed them what it means to be a champion and showed them what it means to wear the Milan shirt. The end result was we won the title, so he might as well go out on top.

This isn't nearly comparable to Pirlo in 2011. What's idiotic is thinking the moment he leaves everything will crumble, when we've gone on numerous win streaks without him. Laughing

Are the players suddenly going to forget everything they learned mentality-wise from him when he's gone? I'm not discrediting his influence within the squad, nor am I discrediting his impressive goal-scoring record, I'm just saying it's time to move on.


First, if he is renewing, then he is renewing with a much lower base salary, with incentive basis for the rest. So the financial cost of renewing for one year is not big.

Second, his injury record is due to his knee, which may be corrected with surgery. I do think he will renew or continue if his body can't take it anymore. If, however, with whatever treatment another year can be squeezed out of him, then that's a free trump card on the bench.

Of course the team won't regress once he leaves, but that doesn't mean his presence won't be a continuous advantage. There is a reason the management basically left the decision of extension to him.

So, from a football perspective, Ibra can still be decisive when healthy. I think this depends on what ever treatment he gets for his knee. He came back from a similar situation and squeezed out four years, maybe he has another year in him.

Also, outside of the mental and sporting role, you are discounting the massive commercial influence he has. He 100% brings in more in revenue and free attention to the team than his updated salary will be. We got a live mascot for the team who occasionally makes match changing contributions, and probably brings in more revenue to the team than he takes out. What sense would it make to get rid of that?

It's not like Ibra is a Prima Donna who destabilizes the team.
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Post by Casciavit Fri May 27, 2022 9:12 am

Lord Spencer wrote:
Casciavit wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:It's idiotic to want Ibra to retire when it's obvious he has a great effect on the players around him.

Playing a third of the season, he scored 8 goals and had 3 assists. One of those assists was for the Tonali goal against Lazio which arguably propelled us to the target. With a good knee, he is better at the build-up than Giroud and is a threat from set-pieces.

We wouldn't have won the title without him. Period.

Reminds me of the clowns who were glad to lose Pirlo and keep Van Bommel (not that MVB wasn't doing great, we should have kept both), only for Juve to take him and start a decade of dominance Laughing


He's our highest earner at 7M a year and he's incapable of starting a game without being injured the next one or needing to be subbed off shortly afterward.

If he wants to be a glorified cheer leader who gets subbed on in the last 10 minutes, sure, but not at that wage and not even close to it.

He's turning 41 and he's injury prone. He's served his purpose in this run. He led a group of young, inexperienced players and showed them what it means to be a champion and showed them what it means to wear the Milan shirt. The end result was we won the title, so he might as well go out on top.

This isn't nearly comparable to Pirlo in 2011. What's idiotic is thinking the moment he leaves everything will crumble, when we've gone on numerous win streaks without him. Laughing

Are the players suddenly going to forget everything they learned mentality-wise from him when he's gone? I'm not discrediting his influence within the squad, nor am I discrediting his impressive goal-scoring record, I'm just saying it's time to move on.


First, if he is renewing, then he is renewing with a much lower base salary, with incentive basis for the rest. So the financial cost of renewing for one year is not big.

Second, his injury record is due to his knee, which may be corrected with surgery. I do think he will renew or continue if his body can't take it anymore. If, however, with whatever treatment another year can be squeezed out of him, then that's a free trump card on the bench.

Of course the team won't regress once he leaves, but that doesn't mean his presence won't be a continuous advantage. There is a reason the management basically left the decision of extension to him.

So, from a football perspective, Ibra can still be decisive when healthy. I think this depends on what ever treatment he gets for his knee. He came back from a similar situation and squeezed out four years, maybe he has another year in him.

Also, outside of the mental and sporting role, you are discounting the massive commercial influence he has. He 100% brings in more in revenue and free attention to the team than his updated salary will be. We got a live mascot for the team who occasionally makes match changing contributions, and probably brings in more revenue to the team than he takes out. What sense would it make to get rid of that?

It's not like Ibra is a Prima Donna who destabilizes the team.


 Calcio Saga 21/22 - Page 20 NDsVxT5

Still think he should stay?
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri May 27, 2022 10:02 am

Casciavit wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Casciavit wrote:


He's our highest earner at 7M a year and he's incapable of starting a game without being injured the next one or needing to be subbed off shortly afterward.

If he wants to be a glorified cheer leader who gets subbed on in the last 10 minutes, sure, but not at that wage and not even close to it.

He's turning 41 and he's injury prone. He's served his purpose in this run. He led a group of young, inexperienced players and showed them what it means to be a champion and showed them what it means to wear the Milan shirt. The end result was we won the title, so he might as well go out on top.

This isn't nearly comparable to Pirlo in 2011. What's idiotic is thinking the moment he leaves everything will crumble, when we've gone on numerous win streaks without him. Laughing

Are the players suddenly going to forget everything they learned mentality-wise from him when he's gone? I'm not discrediting his influence within the squad, nor am I discrediting his impressive goal-scoring record, I'm just saying it's time to move on.


First, if he is renewing, then he is renewing with a much lower base salary, with incentive basis for the rest. So the financial cost of renewing for one year is not big.

Second, his injury record is due to his knee, which may be corrected with surgery. I do think he will renew or continue if his body can't take it anymore. If, however, with whatever treatment another year can be squeezed out of him, then that's a free trump card on the bench.

Of course the team won't regress once he leaves, but that doesn't mean his presence won't be a continuous advantage. There is a reason the management basically left the decision of extension to him.

So, from a football perspective, Ibra can still be decisive when healthy. I think this depends on what ever treatment he gets for his knee. He came back from a similar situation and squeezed out four years, maybe he has another year in him.

Also, outside of the mental and sporting role, you are discounting the massive commercial influence he has. He 100% brings in more in revenue and free attention to the team than his updated salary will be. We got a live mascot for the team who occasionally makes match changing contributions, and probably brings in more revenue to the team than he takes out. What sense would it make to get rid of that?

It's not like Ibra is a Prima Donna who destabilizes the team.


 Calcio Saga 21/22 - Page 20 NDsVxT5

Still think he should stay?


Yes.

You provided no reason why him continuing would be negative in any way. If he comes back to help, even marginally, that would be a bonus. Of course, that depends on him, and how his knee holds up.

The players want him to continue, and so does the management, and both potential owners. Everyone understands his importancenas a symbol of the side, both commercially and sportingly.

He could come back, does fuck all, and still fully deserve his reduced salary. But I think, if he comes back, then he still have a game changing moment or two in him (like against Lazio).

It's extremely funny for me the number of Milan fans who were so against Bra this season (many of them were also against him joining in the first place). We wouldn't have won the league without him, period.

That being said, we are no longer reliant on him, and wouldn't suffer from his loss. Yet, he can still be useful (especially from a commercial pov).
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Post by Casciavit Fri May 27, 2022 11:06 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
Casciavit wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:


First, if he is renewing, then he is renewing with a much lower base salary, with incentive basis for the rest. So the financial cost of renewing for one year is not big.

Second, his injury record is due to his knee, which may be corrected with surgery. I do think he will renew or continue if his body can't take it anymore. If, however, with whatever treatment another year can be squeezed out of him, then that's a free trump card on the bench.

Of course the team won't regress once he leaves, but that doesn't mean his presence won't be a continuous advantage. There is a reason the management basically left the decision of extension to him.

So, from a football perspective, Ibra can still be decisive when healthy. I think this depends on what ever treatment he gets for his knee. He came back from a similar situation and squeezed out four years, maybe he has another year in him.

Also, outside of the mental and sporting role, you are discounting the massive commercial influence he has. He 100% brings in more in revenue and free attention to the team than his updated salary will be. We got a live mascot for the team who occasionally makes match changing contributions, and probably brings in more revenue to the team than he takes out. What sense would it make to get rid of that?

It's not like Ibra is a Prima Donna who destabilizes the team.


 Calcio Saga 21/22 - Page 20 NDsVxT5

Still think he should stay?


Yes.

You provided no reason why him  continuing would be negative in any way. If he comes back to help, even marginally, that would be a bonus. Of course, that depends on him, and how his knee holds up.

The players want him to continue, and so does the management, and both potential owners. Everyone understands his importancenas a symbol of the side, both commercially and sportingly.

He could come back, does fuck all, and still fully deserve his reduced salary. But I think, if he comes back, then he still have a game changing moment or two in him (like against Lazio).

It's extremely funny for me the number of Milan fans who were so against Bra this season (many of them were also against him joining in the first place). We wouldn't have won the league without him, period.

That being said, we are no longer reliant on him, and wouldn't suffer from his loss. Yet, he can still be useful (especially from a commercial pov).

Because he's 41 and he suffered ANOTHER ACL injury. Why the fuck would I want him to stay?

He isn't going to be match fit until January and I've yet to see a player recover from an ACL injury and immediately go back to their best. It usually takes them a season to get back into the groove of things. Ramon Cugat says it takes almost 15-20 games for players to get their rhythm back after that injury. The issue is a lot of players get muscle injuries after coming back from ACL tears which ruin their rhythm.

Ibra said himself that he had to go to MLS to recover his confidence and form after his ACL injury. When he comes back he isn't going to be decisive the way you think he will. He'll likely get a muscle injury or two on his comeback and he'll be sidelined again.

So if your argument is that he will be decisive in one or two matches and that's all we need, then I disagree. He's on 7M a year and I can't see him getting less than 3-4M/year if he does renew. I'd rather use that wage space and renew the younger guys or actually sign a striker who will be available for the ENTIRE season.

As for commercial impact, well his name obviously puts more eyes on the team, but once again it's hard to exactly attribute his impact. Has game attendance decreased since he's been injured? How many more shirts does he sell compared to other players? Is it sponsorship income? Looking at Milan's income statement in 2021 there was a 20% increase in sponsorship income compared to the previous year, but that's been mainly attributed to Gazidis' aggressive approach of agreeing to promotional advertising deals with multiple commercial partners. Obviously having Ibra on the team increases Milan's commercial appeal to these sponsors, but I think even if he left the sponsorship income will continue to grow.

I love Ibra and appreciate what he's done for the club. I just don't see the point of staying on. He's essentially going to be a glorified cheerleader on the bench. Unless he's paid on a game basis or signs a new contract mainly involving variable incentives, then I don't see the point of carrying on with him.
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri May 27, 2022 11:33 pm

Casciavit wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Casciavit wrote:


 Calcio Saga 21/22 - Page 20 NDsVxT5

Still think he should stay?


Yes.

You provided no reason why him  continuing would be negative in any way. If he comes back to help, even marginally, that would be a bonus. Of course, that depends on him, and how his knee holds up.

The players want him to continue, and so does the management, and both potential owners. Everyone understands his importancenas a symbol of the side, both commercially and sportingly.

He could come back, does fuck all, and still fully deserve his reduced salary. But I think, if he comes back, then he still have a game changing moment or two in him (like against Lazio).

It's extremely funny for me the number of Milan fans who were so against Bra this season (many of them were also against him joining in the first place). We wouldn't have won the league without him, period.

That being said, we are no longer reliant on him, and wouldn't suffer from his loss. Yet, he can still be useful (especially from a commercial pov).

Because he's 41 and he suffered ANOTHER ACL injury. Why the fuck would I want him to stay?

He isn't going to be match fit until January and I've yet to see a player recover from an ACL injury and immediately go back to their best. It usually takes them a season to get back into the groove of things. Ramon Cugat says it takes almost 15-20 games for players to get their rhythm back after that injury. The issue is a lot of players get muscle injuries after coming back from ACL tears which ruin their rhythm.

Ibra said himself that he had to go to MLS to recover his confidence and form after his ACL injury. When he comes back he isn't going to be decisive the way you think he will. He'll likely get a muscle injury or two on his comeback and he'll be sidelined again.

So if your argument is that he will be decisive in one or two matches and that's all we need, then I disagree. He's on 7M a year and I can't see him getting less than 3-4M/year if he does renew. I'd rather use that wage space and renew the younger guys or actually sign a striker who will be available for the ENTIRE season.

As for commercial impact, well his name obviously puts more eyes on the team, but once again it's hard to exactly attribute his impact. Has game attendance decreased since he's been injured? How many more shirts does he sell compared to other players? Is it sponsorship income? Looking at Milan's income statement in 2021 there was a 20% increase in sponsorship income compared to the previous year, but that's been mainly attributed to Gazidis' aggressive approach of agreeing to promotional advertising deals with multiple commercial partners. Obviously having Ibra on the team increases Milan's commercial appeal to these sponsors, but I think even if he left the sponsorship income will continue to grow.

I love Ibra and appreciate what he's done for the club. I just don't see the point of staying on. He's essentially going to be a glorified cheerleader on the bench. Unless he's paid on a game basis or signs a new contract mainly involving variable incentives, then I don't see the point of carrying on with him.


Most reports point to a 2M or 2.5M/year signing with variable incentives. His spot won't be at the expense of anyone else.

I am sure you are intelligent enough to realize his name and brand alone bring more commercial revenue to the team than that salary. I don't think we need hard data to make this assumption. For reference, he is the face of Milan that they chose to use when broadcasting Serie A in the Middle East. If he renews, even if he doesn't play a game, he will still be the face used, and that works especially for demographics that don't usually pay much attention to Serie A.

Sure, he might be the most expensive cheerleader in history, but I am not seeing how the expense outweighs the benefits in this situation.

One thing that is clearly not happening is that the management is depending on him as a key striker for next season, or that is his disrupting the team.

Objectively speaking, I think that is most likely that his sporting impact is going to be minimal at best, and his mentality impact is already in place and doesn't need to have him to be maintained. Yet, his commercial contribution is still valuable, and he is a good cheerleader to have.

Plus, he pissed off the rat Calhanoglu to Inter, so that's a bonus.
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Post by Robespierre Sat May 28, 2022 3:36 pm

M99 wrote:Team of the season.

Maignan
Cuadrado-Bremer-Skriniar-Theo
Pellegrini-Brozovic-Milinkovic Savic
Osimhen-Immobile-Leao



Maignan
Skriniar - Tomori - Bremer
Theo -  Tonali - Brozovic - Milinkovic Savic - Perisic
Leao - Vlahovic
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Post by BarcaLearning Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:02 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40tnYpLwlso&list=TLPQMTAwNjIwMjI0kh_DhywBKA&index=7

Randomly popped up on my YT, one of those nostalgic feelings. Same as La Liga back then, only watch very occasionally the Serie A top teams like the Milan teams. Man they had some of the best players then. Young Seedorf was pretty amazing player already Very Happy Him vs Davids must have been some sight.. although they flopped as usual together for the Dutch NT back then...
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Post by Firenze Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:33 pm

spotted a familiar face at Monza's unveiling of Rannochia, had no idea it was a club owned by Berlusconi and cronies, back in the top flight Proud
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Post by rincon Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:26 pm

Firenze wrote:spotted a familiar face at Monza's unveiling of Rannochia, had no idea it was a club owned by Berlusconi and cronies, back in the top flight Proud

Owned by Berlusconi and run by Galliani. The old crooks are back in Serie A.
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Post by Robespierre Yesterday at 5:04 pm

Yeah ,I wanted Pisa in Serie A

Great city,  historic club, passionate fanbase (derby against Fiorentina would have been nice) and no Berlusconi

My current city was close to reach play off and they have played Serie A recently anyway, I wonder if you remember it Proud

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Post by M99 Yesterday at 11:06 pm

I went there for a day to see the Leaning Tower.
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