Congrats on Winning La Liga.... anyone??!!

eelir wrote:It is the coach who decides whether the team sits and defends or plays its usual attacking game right? Or am I missing something?

You're missing that this team has no leader who rallies the troops and says: "*bleep* this shit, we're going to score now, follow me."

Schoolboys, indeed.

The CL has hit particularly hard because it stands in contrast to Madrid's fortune in the CL

Even a domestic double would be overshadowed by an unprecedented 3rd CL in a row.

#WeAreAllLiverpool

Meh. CL is a competition for casuals and as irrelevant as the World Cup now. Two teams are contesting the final which aren't even top 2 in their respective leagues. Before 1992 they wouldn't even be allowed to enter the competition.

Tell me with a straight face Roma is a top 4 team in the world or Liverpool top 2. A bit of luck here with the draws, a bit of luck there with referees and you are in the final.

About as meaningless as the World Cup where 11 men are put together who never play together throughout the year except 3 or 4 times, led by 2nd rate coaches. And the team with the most players who play together at club level takes the trophy (Germany/Bayern, Spain/Barcelona).

A 38 game competition tells you the truth however.

Tells you everything you need to know about this "best Madrid ever" side that I fully expect us to beat them easily on Sunday as usual. When we were at our best Madrid were bus parading a Copa del Rey.

Junior, are you butt hurt or what?

futbol_bill wrote:Junior, are you butt hurt or what?

Senior, please, you know I always speak sense and the truth.

You mean nonsense and foolishness. Life in Finland has warped your once brilliant mind.

futbol wrote:Meh. CL is a competition for casuals and as irrelevant as the World Cup now. Two teams are contesting the final which aren't even top 2 in their respective leagues. Before 1992 they wouldn't even be allowed to enter the competition.

Tell me with a straight face Roma is a top 4 team in the world or Liverpool top 2. A bit of luck here with the draws, a bit of luck there with referees and you are in the final.

About as meaningless as the World Cup where 11 men are put together who never play together throughout the year except 3 or 4 times, led by 2nd rate coaches. And the team with the most players who play together at club level takes the trophy (Germany/Bayern, Spain/Barcelona).

A 38 game competition tells you the truth however.

Tells you everything you need to know about this "best Madrid ever" side that I fully expect us to beat them easily on Sunday as usual. When we were at our best Madrid were bus parading a Copa del Rey.

Agree 100%.

damn. first time in over 10 years that liverpool make the champions lge final and it means nothing

Unique wrote:damn. first time in over 10 years that liverpool make the champions lge final and it means nothing

Since you ain't winning it, it means double nothing actually.

Doc wrote:You mean nonsense and foolishness. Life in Finland has warped your once brilliant mind.

This is true to some extend, my brain froze a bit and the geographical closeness to Harmonica doesn't help either but I do what I can.

futbol wrote:

Unique wrote:damn. first time in over 10 years that liverpool make the champions lge final and it means nothing

Since you ain't winning it, it means double nothing actually.

true but when frenzy brags about manure being the 2nd best team in england i can shoot him down with liverpool are the 2nd best team in europe.

Myesyats wrote:

futbol wrote:Meh. CL is a competition for casuals and as irrelevant as the World Cup now. Two teams are contesting the final which aren't even top 2 in their respective leagues. Before 1992 they wouldn't even be allowed to enter the competition.

Tell me with a straight face Roma is a top 4 team in the world or Liverpool top 2. A bit of luck here with the draws, a bit of luck there with referees and you are in the final.

About as meaningless as the World Cup where 11 men are put together who never play together throughout the year except 3 or 4 times, led by 2nd rate coaches. And the team with the most players who play together at club level takes the trophy (Germany/Bayern, Spain/Barcelona).

A 38 game competition tells you the truth however.

Tells you everything you need to know about this "best Madrid ever" side that I fully expect us to beat them easily on Sunday as usual. When we were at our best Madrid were bus parading a Copa del Rey.

Agree 100%.

Gotta say, when started reading I thought it was just one of those dis things we do to make ourselves feel better But after reading it is that, the CL has been expanded so much and together with whats said, means other factors rather than the teams actual level will affect whether one progresses to the latter stages and actually wins it... it does feel like some of the prestige and merit has been taken out of it nowadays, not trying to discredit Real, but overall yes.

Even Zidane sat down and admitted it is harder to win La Liga than to win the CL.

Madrid are peasants, not royalty....

See I cannot debate that the true test of a team is the league because you have to maintain your level for so long. However leagues have another reason for losing respect and that is the lack of top competition. In that sense the French, German and Italian leagues have lost some of their prestige in the last few years. To some extent the Spanish as well since for some time it was only about the big two and then Atletico to Simeone's great credit became a third part of the equation. Then of course there is the EPL which could be justifiably said to be the most competitive but quite often in the last few seasons questions have been asked whether the EPL winner comes anywhere near Barca, Madrid, etc.

Knock out competition does have a huge share of luck involved and once in a while one team could even become too unbelievably lucky for too long a period leading to justified anger and animosity in everyone else. Madrid of today remind me of Germany of 80s and 90s. My childhood was full of stories of how hated they used to be for being second best on the pitch most of the times but still somehow winning in the end. This kind of success comes with strong pros and cons. On one side people hate such teams for being so lucky and the whole thing seeming so unfair but on the other side people also commend their never say die and winning attitude. However when era defining great teams are discussed such teams are usually not much more than a foot note. Instead teams which truly dominate on the pitch and play with panache are recalled much more fondly. I have been shouting for too long that I do not consider this Real Madrid a particularly great team. Even if they win their third UCL in a row they may not be listed among the top ten club teams of all time. Or at least not top five.

Still whether we like it or not the most prestigious competitions in football are knock out competitions. We could argue that the UCL should be for champions only but it unquestionably is the most prestigious club tournament today and has been so for many years now. As for the world cup one could say it has even more evils than the UCL but I have no doubt its even more prestigious. It still remains the greatest trophy a footballer can ever win no matter how lopsided things may sometimes become. If you win the world cup your name is forever preceded with world cup winner. That's hardly the case with winning the UCL and even less with winning a league title.

Let me end with the definition of the best club team in the world which a few of us agreed on at this forum itself a few years back. It is the team that wins both UCL and its league title in the same season. If no team does that then the position remains vacant. Going by that definition here are the best teams in the world in reverse chronological order from ever since I started following club football regularly.

2017 - Real Madrid
2015 - Barcelona
2013 - Bayern Munich
2011 - Barcelona
2010 - Inter Milan
2009 - Barcelona
2008 - Manchester United
2006 - Barcelona

I think yes the league season is a true test of a team. But I also think the champions league is the test of peak performance.

We our consistent, but our absolute maximum performance isnt quite there yet.

Yes, the players deserve criticism for Roma. But the coach is the captain of the ship and is ultimately responsible. The players did not come to that game with the right attitude and thats also down to the coach.

messixaviesta wrote:See I cannot debate that the true test of a team is the league because you have to maintain your level for so long. However leagues have another reason for losing respect and that is the lack of top competition. In that sense the French, German and Italian leagues have lost some of their prestige in the last few years. To some extent the Spanish as well since for some time it was only about the big two and then Atletico to Simeone's great credit became a third part of the equation. Then of course there is the EPL which could be justifiably said to be the most competitive but quite often in the last few seasons questions have been asked whether the EPL winner comes anywhere near Barca, Madrid, etc.

Knock out competition does have a huge share of luck involved and once in a while one team could even become too unbelievably lucky for too long a period leading to justified anger and animosity in everyone else. Madrid of today remind me of Germany of 80s and 90s. My childhood was full of stories of how hated they used to be for being second best on the pitch most of the times but still somehow winning in the end. This kind of success comes with strong pros and cons. On one side people hate such teams for being so lucky and the whole thing seeming so unfair but on the other side people also commend their never say die and winning attitude. However when era defining great teams are discussed such teams are usually not much more than a foot note. Instead teams which truly dominate on the pitch and play with panache are recalled much more fondly. I have been shouting for too long that I do not consider this Real Madrid a particularly great team. Even if they win their third UCL in a row they may not be listed among the top ten club teams of all time. Or at least not top five.

Still whether we like it or not the most prestigious competitions in football are knock out competitions. We could argue that the UCL should be for champions only but it unquestionably is the most prestigious club tournament today and has been so for many years now. As for the world cup one could say it has even more evils than the UCL but I have no doubt its even more prestigious. It still remains the greatest trophy a footballer can ever win no matter how lopsided things may sometimes become. If you win the world cup your name is forever preceded with world cup winner. That's hardly the case with winning the UCL and even less with winning a league title.

Let me end with the definition of the best club team in the world which a few of us agreed on at this forum itself a few years back. It is the team that wins both UCL and its league title in the same season. If no team does that then the position remains vacant. Going by that definition here are the best teams in the world in reverse chronological order from ever since I started following club football regularly.

2017 - Real Madrid
2015 - Barcelona
2013 - Bayern Munich
2011 - Barcelona
2010 - Inter Milan
2009 - Barcelona
2008 - Manchester United
2006 - Barcelona

Agree with this a lot, CL can be a weird competition at times for some teams, Juve for example have dominated their league for so long but just cant quite do it in the CL and even back in the late 90s where they got to three finals but just one of them, otherwise they surely would be remembered and ranked much higher nowadays when ppl talk about historic teams.

You can argue they probably werent complete enough, which I consider the current Real team to be, I mean they have that good mix of a new manager or fresh still, mature and older players together with young talents, etc., etc, and what they are doing is amazing, but seeing a couple of Real fans calling them the best ever is just way over the team, especially when they are struggling so often to finish 2nd or 3rd in the league. I mean they cant even beat us

Myesyats wrote:

futbol wrote:Meh. CL is a competition for casuals and as irrelevant as the World Cup now. Two teams are contesting the final which aren't even top 2 in their respective leagues. Before 1992 they wouldn't even be allowed to enter the competition.

Tell me with a straight face Roma is a top 4 team in the world or Liverpool top 2. A bit of luck here with the draws, a bit of luck there with referees and you are in the final.

About as meaningless as the World Cup where 11 men are put together who never play together throughout the year except 3 or 4 times, led by 2nd rate coaches. And the team with the most players who play together at club level takes the trophy (Germany/Bayern, Spain/Barcelona).

A 38 game competition tells you the truth however.

Tells you everything you need to know about this "best Madrid ever" side that I fully expect us to beat them easily on Sunday as usual. When we were at our best Madrid were bus parading a Copa del Rey.

Agree 100%.

Isn't surprising consider you agree to idiotic things most of the time tbh.

Pepcelona and their unbeatable aura in the weakest football era of all time:

In 08-09 you competed in La Liga against this team full of world-beaters

Casillas, Sergio Ramos (Van der Vaart, min. 71), Cannavaro, Metzelder, Heinze, Lass, Gago, Marcelo (Huntelaar, min. 58), Robben (Javi García, min. 78), Raúl, Higuaín.

Against Lyon in the CL R16

Lloris, Clerc (Bodmer 46), Cris, Boumsong, Grosso, Delgado (Kallstrom 61), Juninho, Toulalan, Makoun, Ederson (Keita 85), Benzema.

Against Never Munchen in the next round  

Butt, Oddo, Demichelis, Breno, Lell, Altintop (Ottl 46), Schweinsteiger, Van Bommel, Ze Roberto(Sosa 76), Ribery, Toni.

Against Chelsea, biggest robbery in European football history

Cech, Bosingwa, Alex, Terry, Ashley Cole, Lampard, Essien, Ballack, Anelka, Drogba (Belletti 72), Malouda.

Against Man U in the final. Fergie put out a midfield consisting of Anderson, Carrick, 60 yo Giggs and Park.

Van der Sar, O'Shea, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Anderson (Tevez 46), Carrick, Giggs (Scholes 75), Park (Berbatov 66), Ronaldo, Rooney.


In 2010-11 in La Liga

Casillas, Ramos, 38years old Carvalho, Pepe, Marcelo, Khedira, Alonso, Ozil, Ronaldo, Di Maria, Benzema

Now compare that midfield to Casemiro, Kroos, Modric and Isco

In CL

Against Arsenal in the first round; needed an awful referee performance to get past this lot. RVP's red card was a disgrace.

Szczesny; Clichy, Koscielny, Djourou, Sagna; Diaby, Wilshere; Rosicky, Fabregas, Nasri; Van Persie


Against Shakthar in the first round

Pyatov, Srna, Ischenko, Rakitskiy, Rat; Hubschman, Mkhitaryan; Douglas Costa, Jadson, Willian; Luiz Adriano.

Against a good but not great Madrid in the semifinals, needed another awful ref performance.

Against United in the Final, this time SAF fielded a midfield of Valencia, Carrick, 62 yo Giggs and Park, and also other scrubs like Chicharito and Fabio da Silva.

Van der Sar, Fabio, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Valencia, Carrick, Giggs, Park, Rooney, Chicharito.


Looking at it that way Pepcelona isn't that glamorous after all. Less to say that in 14-15 you played 2 overrated plastic clubs in the first 2 rounds and a crippled Bayern in the semis. Needed Messi magic to get past them.

tl;dr

messixaviesta wrote:See I cannot debate that the true test of a team is the league because you have to maintain your level for so long. However leagues have another reason for losing respect and that is the lack of top competition. In that sense the French, German and Italian leagues have lost some of their prestige in the last few years. To some extent the Spanish as well since for some time it was only about the big two and then Atletico to Simeone's great credit became a third part of the equation. Then of course there is the EPL which could be justifiably said to be the most competitive but quite often in the last few seasons questions have been asked whether the EPL winner comes anywhere near Barca, Madrid, etc.

Knock out competition does have a huge share of luck involved and once in a while one team could even become too unbelievably lucky for too long a period leading to justified anger and animosity in everyone else. Madrid of today remind me of Germany of 80s and 90s. My childhood was full of stories of how hated they used to be for being second best on the pitch most of the times but still somehow winning in the end. This kind of success comes with strong pros and cons. On one side people hate such teams for being so lucky and the whole thing seeming so unfair but on the other side people also commend their never say die and winning attitude. However when era defining great teams are discussed such teams are usually not much more than a foot note. Instead teams which truly dominate on the pitch and play with panache are recalled much more fondly. I have been shouting for too long that I do not consider this Real Madrid a particularly great team. Even if they win their third UCL in a row they may not be listed among the top ten club teams of all time. Or at least not top five.

Still whether we like it or not the most prestigious competitions in football are knock out competitions. We could argue that the UCL should be for champions only but it unquestionably is the most prestigious club tournament today and has been so for many years now. As for the world cup one could say it has even more evils than the UCL but I have no doubt its even more prestigious. It still remains the greatest trophy a footballer can ever win no matter how lopsided things may sometimes become. If you win the world cup your name is forever preceded with world cup winner. That's hardly the case with winning the UCL and even less with winning a league title.

Let me end with the definition of the best club team in the world which a few of us agreed on at this forum itself a few years back. It is the team that wins both UCL and its league title in the same season. If no team does that then the position remains vacant. Going by that definition here are the best teams in the world in reverse chronological order from ever since I started following club football regularly.

2017 - Real Madrid
2015 - Barcelona
2013 - Bayern Munich
2011 - Barcelona
2010 - Inter Milan
2009 - Barcelona
2008 - Manchester United
2006 - Barcelona

I also dont consider this Madrid one of the GOAT teams. A team has to win and play exceptionally well, have era defining performances, instill fear among opponents to enter that conversation. I just dont find Madrid's performances anything to write home about nor do I fear them. We are at our weakest in a decade and the supposed GOAT team still cant dominate us. We still match them and often times outplay them like at the Bernabeau.
That shouldnt be the case with a GOAT team.

Nobody in the world considers this Real Madrid team GOAT apart from a few donkeys on this forum tbh

The Franchise wrote:I think yes the league season is a true test of a team. But I also think the champions league is the test of peak performance.

We our consistent, but our absolute maximum performance isnt quite there yet.

Yes, the players deserve criticism for Roma. But the coach is the captain of the ship and is ultimately responsible. The players did not come to that game with the right attitude and thats also down to the coach.

THIS - Addressed the issue accurately in very few words.