Re: The Three Lions

by Nishankly Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:05 pm

Lallana with one full season will be back, he still has a couple of years in his tanks. Should be in the squad for the Euros.

by Jay29 Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:07 pm

Alli and, to some extent, Kane disappointed me more than Sterling.

We didn't really play to Alli's strengths. He was never close enough to Kane for his runs to cause any damage. However, the role he did play showed up some of his deficiencies as a midfielder. He needs to do more on the ball when has it, especially as he doesn't have an Eriksen alongside him to take that responsibility.

Kane's general play was poor throughout the tournament. Can't complain about the goals and that's his primary job, but he looked more and more static at the tournament went on and didn't connect well with Sterling.

by Nishankly Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:07 pm

Also has Milner retired? Surely better than both Henderson and Dier combined.

by Hapless_Hans Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 pm

Nishankly wrote:Also has Milner retired? Surely better than both Henderson and Dier combined.

Apparently, yes.

Jay29 wrote:Alli and, to some extent, Kane disappointed me more than Sterling.

Sterling seemed to me the most dangerous England player by far. Sure he wastes some great chances but these chances exist due to his runs and he's shown at City that he can still score in the last minute. Better should have kept him on probably.

by Unique Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:16 pm

great runs mean nothing if you have no end product.

by Thimmy Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:55 am

I've never understood why Alli is so highly rated. He's decently tall, but doesn't really dominate in aerial duels, decently fast, but not fast enough for it to make a difference, has decent technique, but it hardly ever benefits him. He looks bright every now and then, but every time I hear his name, I'm reminded of that awkward, leaked "sex tape" of his - and not his actual talent Razz

by Jay29 Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:11 am

He has excellent offensive movement and instinct in the penalty area. He's pretty much a second striker for Spurs.

He can't play the same role for England.

by CBarca Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:27 pm

Jay29 wrote:He has excellent offensive movement and instinct in the penalty area. He's pretty much a second striker for Spurs.

He can't play the same role for England.

Yeah this is essentially it. He's also quite creative and stepped up his playmaking this last season. It's clear he's raw, but in a more well drilled team like Spurs, you can see why he's rated.

I still think he has a lot to improve on though. And I've seen him play really well as a midfielder. To me, this world cup, he seemed like he didn't relish the role he had and suffered because of it. Not because he couldn't play the role, but because he's a bit of a diva and I don't think he wanted to play the role he did.

Of course, it certainly wasn't a role that he flourishes in anyway, so it's not all on him, but I do think some of his poor performance could be chalked down to attitude.

by CBarca Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:29 pm

On English midfielders, with a little more time and maturity, I see Harry Winks being a great player and a fixture for England.

Unfortunate injuries this season, but who can forget his performances against Madrid earlier on in the year?

He's the type of midfielder England are crying out for, I think.

by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:32 pm

Dele Alli is essentially a shitty version of Muller, in the sense that his talent is being at the right place at the right time to figure in the scoresheet, but unlike Muller he doesn't contribute much else besides that. He might be a system player.

by RealGunner Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:16 pm

I think we need to scrap 3-5-2 or at least play it with the right players (which we don't have).

by Jay29 Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:45 pm

From what I read from Southgate, the system developed like this:

- 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 didn't offer enough defensive cover in midfield
- 3-4-3 gave us better cover in midfield, but playing two holding midfielders limited the attack
- 3-5-2 was the balance between the two, enabling two midfielders to join the attack but having the extra security of a third defender

I think we need to switch between 3-5-2/3-4-3 depending on the situation. 3-4-3 could allow Alli to play closer to Kane or get another winger into the side.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:10 pm

Don't particularly see anything wrong with the system.

The only one who looks ill suited to it is Alli, the rest of the issues are due to the fact we don't have a good enough midfield.

No system fixes that, the only system issue I had during the tournament is I thought we could have switched to 433 and took Walker/Tripper off for Rashford instead of taking Sterling off which was a mistake imo.

But in terms of the system to start games with I don't see an issue with it.

by RealGunner Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:19 pm

Well, I am not really sure about that.

To me it feels like the system southgate ended up with papered over the cracks because it was the only system which worked better than the others rather than a system which would be the best. I wish he had tried more and not got so hung up on the exact same players in the exact same system. It kinda reminded me of Tite when his entire system was built upon the fact that all 11 players performed well enough for him and even one being poor or missing disrupted everything.

It was also weird that Southgate ended up starting Walker at RCB when we didn't really use him there in the qualifiers. It feels like he was so influenced at what managers at Chelsea/Spurs/City did that he forgot to try and be innovative or adaptive himself. Walker was at fault for the goals against Croatia and Colombia iirc. He had a shit tournament because he has never been a great defender. So to play him at CB was never really going to work against better teams.

Big Wenger raises a good point

Wenger told you lot about Walker pic.twitter.com/Oye4gwVgWI
— M1Ö (@MesutOzilClass) July 11, 2018

In the end, let's face the hard facts. In terms of performances we had a terrible world cup. Panama match is a non-factor. We beat teams like them and San Marino regardless. Struggling to beat Tunisia, not beating Belgium twice, not beating colombia (who would have beaten us with James most likely), not beating Croatia. Only win was against Sweden which was our best important performance.

It feels like the performances and quality itself wasn't any different to the previous tournaments. What was different this time was the morale, team work, ethics, desire and commitment. Southgate brought the squad together and they played like a team. They tried. But it just felt like the team was devoid of ideas, quality and innovation.

Is it the system? the players? maybe bit of both?

I am sure we will improve though. Southgate will learn a lot from this tournament. But how many tournaments have we been through just to say "we need more technically sound players" in the team. And how many times has it ever happened? It's the same media who is calling for a creator that will be bashing the best creator in the PL in about a month's time. I have high hopes for Sancho. Not because he is quality but because he isn't in England. I think more youngsters need to follow.

In terms of our system and tactics, I'd like to see 4-2-3-1 tried again with different players. I'd also like to see more of 3-5-2 but with different players there too. Proper wing backs and proper midfielders. We'll see how much really changes in the future though.

by Jay29 Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:33 pm

It's like we said before: we've done very well considering we played the whole tournament without a midfield.

It's impossible to have high quality performances without a functioning midfield. Doesn't matter what the system is.

Somehow, we got this far with a trio of Henderson, Lingard and Alli. Henderson is limited but solid in a holding role, but Lingard is an attacking midfielder and Alli a second striker. They're not the dynamic 8s that the team really needs and their lack of quality in those positions shows against good opposition.

Delph and Loftus-Cheek looked a lot better today. They show for the ball and progress the play. Suddenly, we were making chances in open play with them in the team.

In theory, then, 3-5-2 is fine. How we want to play is fine. But like with any team, we need the right personnel to make the most out of it.

by RealGunner Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Yea I agree with you. Seeing Loftus-Cheek and Delph is what prompted this. I mean we did lose in the end but I think having proper midfielders and personnel helps make the system what it is. Even if it means benching the 'highly rated' players. Against Croatia, playing just with one real CM was not the best of ideas. Fair enough it nearly worked if it wasn't for Kane bottling but it was never going to work for 90 minutes. When Croatia got control, they were never going to lose it. If we had brought in Delph instead of Dier or Loftus cheek instead of Vardy, it would have turned out better. Starting either of them instead of Alli would have been even better. But hindsight and all.

We also need to strengthen our wingbacks. Young has gone lost somewhere in wanting to be a winger or a fullback. I read that he made 3 forward passes all match against Croatia. Trippier is great though. I don't think Rose is a good player but his left foot is important. Maybe we'll find someone better in 2 years there.

-----------------------Pickford---------------------------
-------CB----------Stones/CB-------Maguire------------
Trippier--------CM----------CM-----------------LWB----
------------------------CAM------------------------------
---------------Kane-----------LS-------------------------

Those empty positions need to be filled. I hope southgate drops the loyalty and bias and favouritism. And I hope we find the right players because we really can build something positive from this.

by futbol_bill Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:43 pm

RealGunner wrote:Well, I am not really sure about that.

To me it feels like the system southgate ended up with papered over the cracks because it was the only system which worked better than the others rather than a system which would be the best. I wish he had tried more and not got so hung up on the exact same players in the exact same system. It kinda reminded me of Tite when his entire system was built upon the fact that all 11 players performed well enough for him and even one being poor or missing disrupted everything.

It was also weird that Southgate ended up starting Walker at RCB when we didn't really use him there in the qualifiers. It feels like he was so influenced at what managers at Chelsea/Spurs/City did that he forgot to try and be innovative or adaptive himself. Walker was at fault for the goals against Croatia and Colombia iirc. He had a shit tournament because he has never been a great defender. So to play him at CB was never really going to work against better teams.

Big Wenger raises a good point

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wenger told you lot about Walker <a href="https://t.co/Oye4gwVgWI">pic.twitter.com/Oye4gwVgWI</a></p>— M1Ö (@MesutOzilClass) <a href="https://twitter.com/MesutOzilClass/status/1017148993418219522?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

In the end, let's face the hard facts. In terms of performances we had a terrible world cup. Panama match is a non-factor. We beat teams like them and San Marino regardless. Struggling to beat Tunisia, not beating Belgium twice, not beating colombia (who would have beaten us with James most likely), not beating Croatia. Only win was against Sweden which was our best important performance.

It feels like the performances and quality itself wasn't any different to the previous tournaments. What was different this time was the morale, team work, ethics, desire and commitment. Southgate brought the squad together and they played like a team. They tried. But it just felt like the team was devoid of ideas, quality and innovation.

Is it the system? the players? maybe bit of both?

I am sure we will improve though. Southgate will learn a lot from this tournament. But how many tournaments have we been through just to say "we need more technically sound players" in the team. And how many times has it ever happened? It's the same media who is calling for a creator that will be bashing the best creator in the PL in about a month's time. I have high hopes for Sancho. Not because he is quality but because he isn't in England. I think more youngsters need to follow.

In terms of our system and tactics, I'd like to see 4-2-3-1 tried again with different players. I'd also like to see more of 3-5-2 but with different players there too. Proper wing backs and proper midfielders. We'll see how much really changes in the future though.

Perhaps this is the best you could expect given your talent level?

But much better than the likes of Brasil, Germany, Spain and Argentina! All of them have much better talent, but disappointed!

by RealGunner Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:50 pm

Like Jay said, it was the best we could have hoped for going into the tournament full of scrubs and lack of a midfield.

Although it doesn't mean we can't improve on it.

by Jay29 Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:35 am

Our problem is number form:

The Three Lions - Page 35 _Em_7Gi2k5jE9iGh6C2vGydklnTS0YE9XJGf7Foj88c

by sportsczy Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:40 am

That's a good stat for midfielders and wingers... they automatically have to cover a lot more ground. The issue here is that England midfielders are basically shit with the ball at their feet. It's not a new issue. Shows me that England mids release the ball very quickly or hoof it.

by S Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:35 pm

Never realised England are world champions in u20 category too

So u17 champions , u20 champions , u19 European champions, WC semi finalists

Ufff, future is looking bright

by Jay29 Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:30 pm

Gary Cahill has retired from international football, while Jamie Vardy says he's "stepping aside but not closing the door entirely".

Cahill is no surprise since he's getting on. I suspect he's making way for Joe Gomez now that he's fit again.

Vardy's decision is a surprise. Southgate apparently wants to blood a younger striker in so Vardy is going to step into the Defoe role and only get called up when we have injuries.

Not entirely sure which striker will replace him, though. Maybe Solanke or Abraham.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:24 pm

Solanke? That's the worst idea I've ever heard Laughing

by RealGunner Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:05 pm

There aren't many good young strikers so i am not sure what Southgate is thinking. Sturridge is fit again and had a good pre-season so maybe he can be relied upon if he gets enough game time.

James Maddison will probably get called up very soon. Not a striker but very much a second striker.

by Jay29 Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:22 pm

England squad for games against Spain and Switzerland:

Keepers: Jordan Pickford, Jack Butland, Alex McCarthy

Defenders: Joe Gomez, Harry Maguire, John Stones, James Tarkowski, Kyle Walker, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Kieran Trippier, Luke Shaw, Danny Rose

Midfielders: Fabian Delph, Jordan Henderson, Eric Dier, Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Dele Alli, Jesse Lingard, Adam Lallana

Forwards: Harry Kane, Raheem Sterling, Danny Welbeck, Marcus Rashford

No real surprises since Southgate is opting for continuity after the World Cup. McCarthy is cover for Nick Pope and Tom Heaton (both injured long-term), Gomez comes in for the retired Cahill, Shaw replaces Young, Tarkowski comes in from the reserves list, and Lallana's back from injury.

We're only three games in so there was never going to be many new faces. Likes of Maddison, Sancho, etc. will have a chance to make the next squad, in all likelihood.

by RealGunner Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:35 pm

Shaw well deserved.

Rest of the squad looks really poor tbh. Finishing 4th at the WC was great but we need to replace half this squad for the euros.

That midfield...

One goal scorer in the entire squad...

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