Non-Muslim countries that are more Islamic than Muslim countries

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Post by guest_07 Mon May 30, 2016 5:22 am

Telegraph.co.uk
(Monday 30 May 2016)
By Damien McElroy, Foreign Affairs Correspondent

Ireland 'leads the world in Islamic values as Muslim states lag'

the summary:

Ireland best embodies the Islamic values of opportunity and justice, according to a survey by a leading US academic

The Koran's teachings are better represented in Western societies than in Islamic countries, which have failed to embrace the values of their own faith in politics, business, law and society, a leading academic at George Washington University has said.
A study of 208 countries and territories has found that the top countries in both economic achievement and social values are:
1) Ireland
2) Denmark
3) Luxembourg
4) Sweden
5) the United Kingdom
6) New Zealand
7) Singapore
Cool Finland
9) Norway
10) Belgium

the highest Muslim countries in the list are:
33) Malaysia
48) Kuwait

other Muslim countries failed to be in top 100, even Saudi Arabia

Hossein Askari, an Iranian-born professor of International Business and International Affairs at George Washington University, said Muslim countries used religion as an instrument of state control. He said: “We must emphasise that many countries that profess Islam and are called Islamic are unjust, corrupt, and underdeveloped and are in fact not ‘Islamic’ by any stretch of the imagination.

“Looking at an index of Economic Islamicity, or how closely the policies and achievements of countries reflect Islamic economic teachings - Ireland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Singapore, Finland, Norway, and Belgium round up the first 10”.

“If a country, society, or community displays characteristics such as unelected, corrupt, oppressive, and unjust rulers, inequality before the law, unequal opportunities for human development, absence of freedom of choice (including that of religion), opulence alongside poverty, force, and aggression as the instruments of conflict resolution as opposed to dialogue and reconciliation, and, above all, the prevalence of injustice of any kind, it is prima facie evidence that it is not an Islamic community,” he said.

An Overall Islamicity Index analysing social rules and human rights measures found that similar rankings were generated in 2010.
"New Zealand, Luxembourg, Ireland, Iceland, Finland, Denmark, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, and the Netherlands; and again only Malaysia (38) and Kuwait (48) make it into the top 50 from Muslim countries,” he said. “Islam is, and has been for centuries, the articulation of the universal love of Allah for his creation and for its unity, and all that this implies for all-encompassing human and economic development."

the source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/10888707/Ireland-leads-the-world-in-Islamic-values-as-Muslim-states-lag.html

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon May 30, 2016 5:26 am

One would expect the countries with Sharia Law to top the list. Doesn't sharia meet Muslim values? scratch Without doing any research into it, I assume the GWU professor is cherrypicking which values to count here.
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Post by guest_07 Mon May 30, 2016 5:29 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:One would expect the countries with Sharia Law to top the list. Doesn't sharia meet Muslim values? scratch Without doing any research into it, I assume the GWU professor is cherrypicking which values to count here.


the one that doing the Sharia Law are not fully understand how to implement it

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Post by guest_07 Mon May 30, 2016 5:31 am

Islamic is about way of life, meaning it involves everything about life

if some country do the Sharia law but still corrupt, oppress their people, too many injustice, that is not Islamic

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Post by rwo power Mon May 30, 2016 5:45 am

Here's the methodology of the study: http://www.ahmad-juhaidi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/how-islamic-islamic-countries.pdf
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Post by guest_07 Mon May 30, 2016 5:56 am

rwo power wrote:Here's the methodology of the study: http://www.ahmad-juhaidi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/how-islamic-islamic-countries.pdf


thanks for the help

i appreciate it, rwo power Thumbs up

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Post by guest_07 Mon May 30, 2016 6:13 am

guest_07 wrote:

the highest Muslim countries in the list are:
33) Malaysia
48) Kuwait

other Muslim countries failed to be in top 100, even Saudi Arabia

Hossein Askari, an Iranian-born professor of International Business and International Affairs at George Washington University, said Muslim countries used religion as an instrument of state control. He said: “We must emphasise that many countries that profess Islam and are called Islamic are unjust, corrupt, and underdeveloped and are in fact not ‘Islamic’ by any stretch of the imagination.



i apologize

based on the source from rwo power, there are several other muslim countries in top 50-100

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Post by rwo power Mon May 30, 2016 10:35 am

Well, if the report is true that Saudi Arabia set up rules in a way that makes it near impossible for Iranian Muslims to attend to the hajj, then they probably should get some more minus points in their Islamicity ranking...

(The German language NZZ report stated that the dispute was - among some other things - over the demand of the Saudis that the Visas of the Iranians had to be obtained via a Third country and not via Tehran, and that they were not allowed to use cheaper Iranian airlines for the fight to Mecca and that there was an assembly ban for Iranians - these points were not mentioned in the Guardian article as far as I know.)

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/29/iran-pilgrims-will-not-attend-hajj-amid-row-with-saudi-arabia
http://www.nzz.ch/international/nahost-und-afrika/pilgerfahrt-nach-mekka-saudiarabien-soll-iranische-pilger-von-hajj-abhalten-ld.85546
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Post by guest_07 Mon May 30, 2016 10:40 am

rwo power wrote:Well, if the report is true that Saudi Arabia set up rules in a way that makes it near impossible for Iranian Muslims to attend to the hajj, then they probably should get some more minus points in their Islamicity ranking...

(The German language NZZ report stated that the dispute was - among some other things - over the demand of the Saudis that the Visas of the Iranians had to be obtained via a Third country and not via Tehran, and that they were not allowed to use cheaper Iranian airlines for the fight to Mecca and that there was an assembly ban for Iranians - these points were not mentioned in the Guardian article as far as I know.)

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/29/iran-pilgrims-will-not-attend-hajj-amid-row-with-saudi-arabia
http://www.nzz.ch/international/nahost-und-afrika/pilgerfahrt-nach-mekka-saudiarabien-soll-iranische-pilger-von-hajj-abhalten-ld.85546


if for safety reason, may be it justified

if for some ego reason, saudi arabia are do the wrongdoing from Islamic perspective

for this case, i'm not sure which is which

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Post by rwo power Mon May 30, 2016 10:47 am

From the NZZ report, it appeared that the Saudi demands were mainly set up to make the hurdles for Iranians to be able to attend higher. The Guardian article seemed to focus more on the security aspect. What is true in the end is hard to discern from afar.
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Post by Unique Mon May 30, 2016 1:46 pm

so in Ireland the catholics and protestants cant live together but the muslims are doing well. only in Ireland Laughing Laughing
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Post by Cruijf Tue May 31, 2016 8:52 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:One would expect the countries with Sharia Law to top the list. Doesn't sharia meet Muslim values? scratch Without doing any research into it, I assume the GWU professor is cherrypicking which values to count here.


There is not a single Islamic State in today's world, because one of the conditions according to classical Islamic scholars was that the leader would be a Caliph chosen by the entirety of Muslim community. This was knowingly discarded with the demise of the Ottoman Empire.

What you have now are a bunch of nation states who determine their own laws, allegedly inspired by Islamic theology but not bound by it.

As for how Ireland got to the top I'd have to read the study, but it's not too surprising. You'd be surprised how unislamic most Muslim countries are, even by their own assessment. Most gave up the pretense long ago.
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Post by Guest Tue May 31, 2016 9:28 pm

Cruijf wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:One would expect the countries with Sharia Law to top the list. Doesn't sharia meet Muslim values? scratch Without doing any research into it, I assume the GWU professor is cherrypicking which values to count here.


There is not a single Islamic State in today's world, because one of the conditions according to classical Islamic scholars was that the leader would be a Caliph chosen by the entirety of Muslim community. This was knowingly discarded with the demise of the Ottoman Empire.

What you have now are a bunch of nation states who determine their own laws, allegedly inspired by Islamic theology but not bound by it.

As for how Ireland got to the top I'd have to read the study, but it's not too surprising. You'd be surprised how unislamic most Muslim countries are, even by their own assessment. Most gave up the pretense long ago.


Under that qualification there is no way any Islamic nation could ever exist. Good luck getting Ahmadis or Ismailis cosigning anything put out by any of the Sunni or even Shi'a schools. I don't even think Saudi Arabia allows the former two into Mecca.

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Post by Cruijf Tue May 31, 2016 10:07 pm

Betty La Fea wrote:
Cruijf wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:One would expect the countries with Sharia Law to top the list. Doesn't sharia meet Muslim values? scratch Without doing any research into it, I assume the GWU professor is cherrypicking which values to count here.


There is not a single Islamic State in today's world, because one of the conditions according to classical Islamic scholars was that the leader would be a Caliph chosen by the entirety of Muslim community. This was knowingly discarded with the demise of the Ottoman Empire.

What you have now are a bunch of nation states who determine their own laws, allegedly inspired by Islamic theology but not bound by it.

As for how Ireland got to the top I'd have to read the study, but it's not too surprising. You'd be surprised how unislamic most Muslim countries are, even by their own assessment. Most gave up the pretense long ago.


Under that qualification there is no way any Islamic nation could ever exist. Good luck getting Ahmadis or Ismailis cosigning anything put out by any of the Sunni or even Shi'a schools. I don't even think Saudi Arabia allows the former two into Mecca.


In the current world yes it's highly unlikely it would ever happen. But in the past there were dynasties that were uninterrupted for hundreds of years that united the entire Muslim community.

We are simply too divided theologically now for anyone to claim a certain country practices "Sharia law". That's why no one really bothers trying anymore. Even Saudi Arabia has given up and now blatantly institutes laws without any basis in Islamic scholarship.

To go back and look at classical Islamic caliphates and compare their values with the values of countries today is thus a very worthwhile pursuit. It's not just a matter of saying "Sharia law" countries are the closest to Islamic values.
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Post by Guest Tue May 31, 2016 10:43 pm

Cruijf wrote:
Betty La Fea wrote:
Cruijf wrote:

There is not a single Islamic State in today's world, because one of the conditions according to classical Islamic scholars was that the leader would be a Caliph chosen by the entirety of Muslim community. This was knowingly discarded with the demise of the Ottoman Empire.

What you have now are a bunch of nation states who determine their own laws, allegedly inspired by Islamic theology but not bound by it.

As for how Ireland got to the top I'd have to read the study, but it's not too surprising. You'd be surprised how unislamic most Muslim countries are, even by their own assessment. Most gave up the pretense long ago.


Under that qualification there is no way any Islamic nation could ever exist. Good luck getting Ahmadis or Ismailis cosigning anything put out by any of the Sunni or even Shi'a schools. I don't even think Saudi Arabia allows the former two into Mecca.


In the current world yes it's highly unlikely it would ever happen. But in the past there were dynasties that were uninterrupted for hundreds of years that united the entire Muslim community.

We are simply too divided theologically now for anyone to claim a certain country practices "Sharia law". That's why no one really bothers trying anymore. Even Saudi Arabia has given up and now blatantly institutes laws without any basis in Islamic scholarship.

To go back and look at classical Islamic caliphates and compare their values with the values of countries today is thus a very worthwhile pursuit. It's not just a matter of saying "Sharia law" countries are the closest to Islamic values.


Hmm interesting.

I think values in all society change through time though.

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