insan wrote:Actually i dont believe one person changing or carrying any team. Its a football game and its played by 11 men. other 10 must be super talented OR above average players but years of understanding and chemisty between them. Germany and Spain national team are example for this. because 80% of their players trained together every week (in bayern and barcelona).and this chemistry won them world cups.
For me Ronaldinho didnt carry or change barcelona alone. they already had fantastic squad, even better than today. At that time Xavi entered his prime, Iniesta was born, they had prime Eto, prime Deco, prime Puyol, prime Abidal and young Messi. That machine just needed fuel and it was Ronaldinho.

I'm not saying Neymar is better than Ronaldinho, i'm just saying one player never can change or carry any team. Ronnie lacks Neymar's runs which is very important aspect, as it opens space and destroys balance of defenses. he did some runs when he was young and fast, but it was not his style. Neymar lacks his passing. in other things theres no much difference. its very difficult to accept neymar is better now. but he will have better career if he somehow becomes main man in his team. he doesnt need any flash or tricks he just needs to win CL and Ballon dor. For now i dont know maybe they are equal but neymar needs to prove it. Making a "Neymar show" in upcoming El Clasico (without messi) would be a good start. i dont mean a tapin i mean a show. Both messi and ronaldinho did these shows and gained reputation and respect, neymar needs to do it too

I meant influence. His tangibles that can't be seen in stats, is what I mentioned. It was regarding Bank who loves to posts stats to support discussions. I don't think it's that simple. It's a team game, I agree, but there is also allot more to it than that. And there is no denying that having a prime Ronaldinho influenced the entire Barcelona side that at that time was struggling really, really bad.

Look at Xavi and his influence on Barcelona and Spain. Same thing. Not saying Xavi carried either club or country, but there is no denying he had a huge influence in the teams success and bringing out the best out of his team mates. I'm not sure Neymar does that for players around him (yet), but I feel Ronaldinho (with Barcelona, not Brazil), did. Neymar definitley is clutch with his goals and scoring, but as far as influencing the entire sides game Ronaldinho was much better at that as oppose to going out and scoring a ton of goals.

Windkick, nice post, and just like you, I solely believe that not everything is down to statistic but going by your argument, couldn't I have as well said the same thing bout Neymar?

1). U talked bout dinho not doing too well cause he didn't have the burden on him for brazil, couldn't I have as well said that Neymar isn't having that effect in barca cause they have Messi and more stars now?
Who's to say ronaldinho would have had close to such an effect in this messi dominant barca era?

2).U talk bout dinho having a bigger effect on barca, well, can't I as well say Neymar has a bigger effect in brazil because all the players are mainly scrubs or average at best?
Who's to say he wouldn't have had the same effect in a scrub barca team?


3).You also talk about stats, I brought it up because their club title collections are not too dissimilar RONALDINHO has won the Champions League, the Libertadores, the League, the spanish super cup, 1 state championships, 1 Conmebol title, south american footballer of the year, multiple best player awards, Fifa wpoty, balon d'or while NEYMAR has won the Champions League, the League, the Libertadores, the Spanish Cup, the Brazilian cup, the European the super cup, 1 CONMEBOL title, and Multiple state championships, 2 time south american footballer of the year as a teenager, multiple top scorer awards and multiple best player awards (with the world club cup to come) while having bout 10 more years at the very top level.
So, if that isn't having a crazy effect on a team, I wonder what is.

Take what neymar has done for santos for instance (titles, awards, goals, assists, records, ball wizardry) and how he carries brazil and you'll definitely see that Neymar would probably have had the same effect on that barca team pre 2003 if not more.

Individually they are pretty much on thesame talent echelon, as I've pretty much seeing both of them do some insane shit with the ball at their feet, and even if I cannot say neymar is better, I can definitely not say a prime Ronaldinho had anything substantial over neymar either, except his physique and passing range, just as neymar has somethings he does better than dinho (speed, of the ball movement, goals for instance).

Ronaldinho takes the cake as at today, but my argument is that this debate will become redundant in 5 years time or maybe less.
The fact that a 23 year old starting out his career can hold his own to an already established legend at 35 (one of the greatest ever players) should speak volumes of neymar's talent.



It is also worth knowing that going by their ages (23), Neymar wins this comparision and then some that its not even close!!!
At 23, Neymar absolutely trolls ronaldinho!!!

I have no intention on reading this thread, at least partly because I missed most of it.

But I will say this, the only ones (like myself) who was willing to entertain Ronaldinho and Messi debate, was not trying to say Ronaldinho has had a better career or will go down as better...the only debate was Ronaldinho at his very top level, wasnt inferior to anyone. And I still stand by that.

As for this question, what an insult. I rate Neymar as highly as anyone I guess, but he has alot to do to be Ronaldinho.

The Franchise wrote:
But I will say this, the only ones (like myself) who was willing to entertain Ronaldinho and Messi debate, was not trying to say Ronaldinho has had a better career or will go down as better...the only debate was Ronaldinho at his very top level, wasnt inferior to anyone. And I still stand by that.

And you're still deluded.

Like your opinion holds any value...oh wait, you dont have an opinion...go read some stats and then come back to the forum.

That moment when the most delusional poster on the forum calls you deluded.

Thats his opinion, has got every right to have one, and it doesnt make him deluded in any way...

I like to first hear an argument, before I squash it.

I dont have to give any argument. I have an opinion, you think its wrong, so you tell me why if you want and I will proceed to ignore it.

I wasnt addressing my response to you, so I have no reason to explain anything to you. If your so eager for my reasoning, go find the post I said it in.

And above all that, you cant explain anything to anyone about football because you dont know shit. I feel bad wasting my time even writing this.

Go find some clips of Messi tying his show lace and show us the era adjusted stats to prove how he is the best of all time at tying shoe laces and leave football talk to people who actually have some kinda idea what they are looking at.

Ronaldinho was a magician.
Neymar will never be a magician, even if he turns out a higherscoring/more successful/longliving player.

The Franchise wrote:I have no intention on reading this thread, at least partly because I missed most of it.

But I will say this, the only ones (like myself) who was willing to entertain Ronaldinho and Messi debate, was not trying to say Ronaldinho has had a better career or will go down as better...the only debate was Ronaldinho at his very top level, wasnt inferior to anyone. And I still stand by that.

As for this question, what an insult. I rate Neymar as highly as anyone I guess, but he has alot to do to be Ronaldinho.

hmm I would disagree with you about the Ronaldinho and Messi comparison. Prime Ronaldinho is inferior to prime Messi imo. You look at Messi's best ever games, not only is he as complete as Ronaldinho (undertaking most creative and finishing responsibilities) but his productive output is almost double. He's also not really lacking in the magic department. His close control at pace is as beautiful as an elastico or no-look pass.

@hans, yes we get it that u've always disliked neymar but keep your argument intelligent at least. Nobody asked u who is the better magician, my God, what is that even? And how do u even define magic? Based on what he did with the ball that u think neymar can't do? Some elasticos, some long passes? Lol. If neymar has a longer and a more successful career wouldn't that have made him better? Of course it'll be no to u since u clearly have an agenda as shown by your statement. I'm sure dinho is a better magician than van basten and messi too.
Nobody is interested in neymar being a better sorcerer or witch doctor.
Like pirlo said, its always going to be about the feels and emotions with dinho rather than actual argument or substance like someone showing some random pass or skill of a 27 year old dinho, like really? I love how the argument is going in the direction of magic now.

While, dinho might be more enjoyable to watch which I honestly prefar (my emotions speaking), but as peaks go, messi totally destroys dinho and its not even close!!! Infact how is it even an argument in the first place?
Wouldn't be surprised if it becomes about magic now. Magic he couldn't even do for more than a forthnight before going into oblivion, lol.

The Franchise wrote:I dont have to give any argument. I have an opinion, you think its wrong, so you tell me why if you want and I will proceed to ignore it.

I wasnt addressing my response to you, so I have no reason to explain anything to you. If your so eager for my reasoning, go find the post I said it in.

And above all that, you cant explain anything to anyone about football because you dont know shit. I feel bad wasting my time even writing this.

Go find some clips of Messi tying his show lace and show us the era adjusted stats to prove how he is the best of all time at tying shoe laces and leave football talk to people who actually have some kinda idea what they are looking at.

How am I supposed to squash your opinion if I don't even know your argument? Anyone can have an trivial opinion, baby baboon can think that hungry lion next to him is his mother without ever rationalizing why.

Uoooo, what a goal from Neymar. Some magic to rival Ronaldinho's there....

Having read all the arguments, I can't really decide who is better right now.

Ronaldinho was an incredibly important player for us, who turned around our fate. He was one, if not the most, technically gifted player ever, and a great dribler. An incredibly creative footballer and fantastic passer, while also quite prolific goalscorer.

On the other hand, Neymar is now also super important to us. He is also incredibly technical and probably a better dribler than Ronaldinho thanks to being quicker and faster. His magic is there for all to see, but he seems to have limited himself a little bit in order to fit in with the team and improve us. His passing, although very good, is possibly his weakness compared to Ronaldinho or other masters, but on the other hand, he's twice as much a prolific goalscorer than Ronaldinho.

All in all, I can't really say who is better, but I'm completely sure that if Neymar stays with us for as long as Ronaldinho, there will be no doubt he's been an overall better player than Ronaldinho for us... so my vote goes to him.

Ronaldinho on the top of his game is the only player that can rival R9 when he was in his peak. The only problem with those 2 was they didn't do it "long enough".

Ronaldinho literally made Barcelona relevant again. He literally ruined the "galacticos" on his own. He was the one that tutored Messi. He carried Barcelona the moment he joined and improved the team. He brought the feel good factor back from the time Figo left / Barcelona struggled win the league for what was it, 5 years? He gave Xavi and Iniesta that winning mentality. It's only a shame he's decline came early and went full party mode. Simply lost his passion for the game. Neymar came into it and plays with the best 2 players in the world. When Barcelona are "up there" as the best.

It's terrible hard to compare the two eras though. Go back 10-15 years ago and it was a different game. Science has improved. Technology (training) has imporved. Teams had world class defences and world class keepers. Majority of the top sides were tactically disciplined. And were a lot more defensive. Today it's all about attack attack attack and that's why there's a lot more goal fests / players scoring 40+ a season every year. Look at the defences today. The likes of Ramos and Mascherano (who is a beast DM but is half the player as a CB) are regarded as "world class" and "the best CBs" in the world. Teams play with higher lines. There's no real defensive midfielders shielding your defence nowadays. Gone are the days of Makelele etc. It's essentially a new game all built on attack.

You can't take anything away from Messi, CR7, Neymar, Suarez etc because they are arguably the best players I've ever seen play but it's just impossible to compare the two eras imo. R9, Ronaldinho etc never played in "open" free flowing games. Or even 5 years ago when Barcelona played the best football I've ever played just in total control of games. It's two eras. Again, that's not to say Messi and co would struggle back then, but you can't compare them. I don't know. Half baked. Hopefully you get the point 'cause I'll just keep going around in circles.

Neymar is showing traits of Ronaldinho and he's probably the most entertaining player to watch right now. He's magical. The best thing about Neymar (and Suarez) are that both are so unselfish and both are arguably the best players in the world. They literally do not care who scores as long as they win the game. I'm not sure if Suarez tutored Neymar to do that or he was only that player (I didn't watch Neymar's first season at the club so can't really comment) 2 years ago but it's refreshing to see that these two are single handedly carry Barcelona to help let Messi recover to 100%. There's no rush to bring Lionel back. As good as Pedro and Sanchez were they didn't really unlock teams and some what struggled with Messi out. Which lead to rushing Messi's recovery to help Barcelona's cause. Which didn't really help Barcelona, Lionel or his form. Hell, I thought he was on the decline / was burnt out. With Neymar and Suarez in the same team, there's no pressure. They are the greatest trio I've ever seen play. But individually I don't know, I don't think it's fair to compare any of them to the likes of 'Dinho and co. Just appreciate the fact you've seen 'em all play for your club instead of arguing who's better.

Ronaldinho goal vs Nerman goal

jibers wrote:Ronaldinho goal vs Nerman goal

Neymar's is better

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:Ronaldinho goal vs Nerman goal

Neymar's is better

Disagree. Dinho did his in a much tighter turn and his was faster, the defender was tighter. Neymar had more time. Dinho exhibited higher ball control there. Neymars is till GOAT but Dinhos technique was better.

jibers wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:

jibers wrote:Ronaldinho goal vs Nerman goal

Neymar's is better

Disagree. Dinho did his in a much tighter turn and his was faster, the defender was tighter. Neymar had more time. Dinho exhibited higher ball control there. Neymars is till GOAT but Dinhos technique was better.

Dinho was static there while Nerman was in motion.

The beauty of Neymar's is that the move seems already well tought out even before hand and happens in the twinkle of an eye, moreso its all done with his right foot all in a second, dispite being at a disadvantage. Then the spin around the defender just gives it that magic and swagger in the end.

More so, the spin makes that goal iconic!!! Any other spin and goal by any player would be regarded as them doing a "Neymar" from now on by the press!

Red Alert wrote:Ronaldinho on the top of his game is the only player that can rival R9 when he was in his peak. The only problem with those 2 was they didn't do it "long enough".

Ronaldinho literally made Barcelona relevant again. He literally ruined the "galacticos" on his own. He was the one that tutored Messi. He carried Barcelona the moment he joined and improved the team. He brought the feel good factor back from the time Figo left / Barcelona struggled win the league for what was it, 5 years? He gave Xavi and Iniesta that winning mentality. It's only a shame he's decline came early and went full party mode. Simply lost his passion for the game. Neymar came into it and plays with the best 2 players in the world. When Barcelona are "up there" as the best.

It's terrible hard to compare the two eras though. Go back 10-15 years ago and it was a different game. Science has improved. Technology (training) has imporved. Teams had world class defences and world class keepers. Majority of the top sides were tactically disciplined. And were a lot more defensive. Today it's all about attack attack attack and that's why there's a lot more goal fests / players scoring 40+ a season every year. Look at the defences today. The likes of Ramos and Mascherano (who is a beast DM but is half the player as a CB) are regarded as "world class" and "the best CBs" in the world. Teams play with higher lines. There's no real defensive midfielders shielding your defence nowadays. Gone are the days of Makelele etc. It's essentially a new game all built on attack.

You can't take anything away from Messi, CR7, Neymar, Suarez etc because they are arguably the best players I've ever seen play but it's just impossible to compare the two eras imo. R9, Ronaldinho etc never played in "open" free flowing games. Or even 5 years ago when Barcelona played the best football I've ever played just in total control of games. It's two eras. Again, that's not to say Messi and co would struggle back then, but you can't compare them. I don't know. Half baked. Hopefully you get the point 'cause I'll just keep going around in circles.

Neymar is showing traits of Ronaldinho and he's probably the most entertaining player to watch right now. He's magical. The best thing about Neymar (and Suarez) are that both are so unselfish and both are arguably the best players in the world. They literally do not care who scores as long as they win the game. I'm not sure if Suarez tutored Neymar to do that or he was only that player (I didn't watch Neymar's first season at the club so can't really comment) 2 years ago but it's refreshing to see that these two are single handedly carry Barcelona to help let Messi recover to 100%. There's no rush to bring Lionel back. As good as Pedro and Sanchez were they didn't really unlock teams and some what struggled with Messi out. Which lead to rushing Messi's recovery to help Barcelona's cause. Which didn't really help Barcelona, Lionel or his form. Hell, I thought he was on the decline / was burnt out. With Neymar and Suarez in the same team, there's no pressure. They are the greatest trio I've ever seen play. But individually I don't know, I don't think it's fair to compare any of them to the likes of 'Dinho and co. Just appreciate the fact you've seen 'em all play for your club instead of arguing who's better.

I really can't understand how you can say Ronaldinho and R9 had a higher peak than Messi. That's quite impossible to argue. He's far above both of them, no question.

Regarding the "two eras" thing, we are not talking about 50 years ago. Ronaldinho was at Barça 7,5 years ago. Many of Barça current players played with Ronaldinho and with Neymar. There are enough similarities to compare, and football hasn't changed that much, although I admit there's been a (positive) change after Pep Guardiola.

I think Ronnie was a better player.
What makes me choose Ronnie are his body strength and his passing. Ronnie was incredibly strong and could hold off defenders while static and while running with the ball. Neymar is frail and cant quite do that.
Neymar is an average passer while Ronnie was an elite passer.
Neymar is a better goalscorer but the advantage over Ronnie isnt as big as Ronnie's advantage in other areas.

Neymar hasnt fulfilled his potential yet. Hold on with your judgement. At this moment I'd still pick Roonie though, just my personal prefence.

@linetty.. Very mature statement and nobody would fault you for picking dinho.. Afterall, we loved dinho, but not for some of those reasons people are giving, like being as magician and all that, as if neymar hasn't got his goat moments too..

My 2 cents, Technically I think dinho was better. he had better ball control, better passing especially his range, better vision He was also stronger, much stronger.

Dinho was a #10 though. He only played on the wing because he didn't defend and that would have killed Barcelona. I see Dinho as a #10 and Neymar as an interior forward so I think the comparison is a bit off. Dinho was a media Punte.

Neymar is a better forward and makes better runs for sure, but we can't compare them because Dinho was the guy usually picking the ball from deep and running at the defence, basically the Messi of Barcelona back then.

Depends on the team and the set up. Apples and oranges for me.

@jibes, yeah you're very correct, as ronnie had a better passing range and was much more stronger due to his physique. But neymar is the better dribbler, faster, had better movement, and above all a better scorer.
Anyway, it all depends on which neymar you're comparing to dinho tho, as I'll take this Neymar (the one without messi) over any player in the world as opposed to Neymar the goal scorer tbh..

In Ronaldinho's time, Neymar would have had the same level of performance to dinho and I doubt dinho in the era of freaks like messi would have done as much or neither would he have been dominant in anyway (due to freedom of expression of lack thereoff)..

It all boils down to building the team around them. I mean, Just look at Neymar now for instance, I bet nobody knew he would be the most dominant player in all of europe with the highest player ratings, being the la liga top scorer, having the most dribbles, and having the most chances created all at thesame time. Freaking stuff tbh..

So, if you build the team around Neymar, I don't think there'll be anything substantial to choose between them..

Meanwhile yes, for now dinho is better because, he's had more opportunities to play with him being the center piece (for seasons), hence having more moments as a result, something that can be said for neymar also.