Will an EPL team make the Semi's of the CL?

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Post by S Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:30 am

Barca's midfield RIGHT NOW is only inferior to Bayern and maybe Real.None else.

Iniesta and Rakitic were immense in the CL.You are heavily underrating them.

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Post by sportsczy Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:43 am

When Modric went down and Di Maria was gone... we had only Kroos.  Madrid can beat anyone with the talent that we have on a given day.  BUT, to win trophies, you need consistency in performance and positive matchups against the elite.  We were HORRIBLE against the top teams last season.  Nick can correct me... but i think we were something like 3 wins and 8 losses against Atleti, Barca and Valencia.  That's the main reason Carlo got fired although it wasn't his fault that we signed 5 AMs, a donkey and 1 attacking CM while getting rid of all the other CMs and DMs.
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Post by Cruijf Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:48 am

S wrote:Barca's midfield RIGHT NOW is only inferior to Bayern and maybe Real.None else.

What exactly have you seen to indicate that? First of all, Juve showed in the CL final that their midfield was indeed superior to Barca's. If Pirlo was 2 years younger and Vidal wasn't having a poor season, they might have won. As it was, they were killed by Barca's lethal counter attacks.

Nevertheless, midfield domination was never one of Barca's strengths this season. Their success was in being very direct when they won possession and relying on the brilliance of their front three.

Iniesta and Rakitic were immense yes, but mostly in the defensive side of their game (where they were heavily underrated). On the ball, they had very simple jobs. I guarantee you had they played Bayern at full strength, the extent of their weakness in midfield would have been exposed.

Honestly, if you want any proof of Barca's midfield being nothing special, watch the second Clasico of the recently concluded season. They were dominated by a midfield of two number 10s and a half fit Modric Laughing
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Post by Cruijf Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:49 am

Sport I'm not contesting the fact Madrid were horribly imbalanced. I'm saying the fact such a poorly constructed midfield dominated Barca speaks volumes as to how weak their midfield was.
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Post by Donuts Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:19 pm

I feel like rakitic is heavily underrated, he has been a workhorse, makes crazy runs, reads the game so well.
iniesta had off form last year but showed up in almost every important game and buscuit is the best DM.

our midfield isn't the same as before but definitely wouldn't take PSG or Juve's last season team over ours lol
i'd only take modric from real but that's about it.. and thiago from bayern lol
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Post by Dnmac4 Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:52 pm

Barca's midfield is exceptional still, it's just they have a different job these days in covering for the front Three.

Rakitic is criminally underrated and he is somewhat handcuffed by the system there running and all the covering he has to do.

People always point to the departure of Di Maria in Madrid's midfield issues but IMO there season started a nosedive when Modric was injured.  The guy is pure class and kept Madrid ticking.  There a totally different team when he plays.

The big gap and the reason no EPL team will make the semi's of the Champions League is the lack of World class players in the league.  The teams spend way too much money on "good" players and a lot of the time don't even get the best out of there "good" players like Atletico do.

The EPL has shipped too many of there world class players to other leagues.  I mean Suarez was hands down the best player in the EPL and now he's third option in Barcelona.

Bale and Modric they lost in a years time.  Di Maria now gone, Ronaldo, Robben, Xabi Alonso, Maschererano, Pique, Jerome Boateng, looks like De Gea is leaving etc etc

You can get big money for these players but you can't replace them.  It's the whole reason I was shocked City fans wanted Yaya sold for 20 mill.  Where on earth are they going to find another Yaya Toure?

It's a mix of bad spending and top class foreign players wanting to leave the league.
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Post by Sri Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:56 pm

So you are saying there are no top class players at all in the PL?

That's a very bold statement.
Not sure if you are just hating at this point, overrating other leagues, and/or underrating every single player in the PL.

I realized long back that I will not see eye to eye with some of your views. But like I have always said, each poster has the right to his own subjective opinions as well.

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Post by LeBéninois Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:07 pm

Dnmac4 actually said
'' The big gap and the reason no EPL team will make the semi's of the Champions League is the lack of World class players in the league. The teams spend way too much money on "good" players and a lot of the time don't even get the best out of there "good" players like Atletico do. ''

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:11 pm

Cruijf wrote:
S wrote:Barca's midfield RIGHT NOW is only inferior to Bayern and maybe Real.None else.

What exactly have you seen to indicate that? First of all, Juve showed in the CL final that their midfield was indeed superior to Barca's.

Honestly, if you want any proof of Barca's midfield being nothing special, watch the second Clasico of the recently concluded season. They were dominated by a midfield of two number 10s and a half fit Modric Laughing


Nonsense lol.

Iniesta and Busquets dominated that final lol, people can talk about Iniesta all they want to in general but in the final and the KO stages of the CL he was brilliant.

How was Juve's midfield superior? Vidal was more known for fouling as he was being passed circles around, Pogba's impact was most felt in and around the box and Pirlo gave the ball away more than anyone.

Marchisio was the only one who actually came away with any of sort credit tbh, also Madrid dominated a Barca midfield without Busquets as soon as Busquets came on it was all Barca Laughing

Plus it makes me laugh as no one mentions Messi when they discuss Barca's midfield, considering he is their midfield lmao.

So yes you are vastly underrating it, it may not be tiki taka brilliance as it was once was but it's still vastly better than most.
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Post by Valkyrja Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:15 pm

I still maintain that Madrid is the best team in the world when playing 442 with Isco, Kroos, Modric and James, even with Barca winning the treble last season. It sucks that this will happen once in a blue moon. We were simply unplayable in the first half of the season. Fatigue due to Carlo's lack of rotation and Modric's injury simply destroyed what was to be a great season for us. Even in the second half of the season we dominated Barca without James, with a half fit Modric and that scrub Bale in the first 50 minutes. Then the whole team was dead tired and Barca capitalized on that. Not taking anything away from Barca since they fully deserved to win the CL as they steamrolled everyone in their way. Just like us in 2014 they peaked at the perfect moment.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:22 pm

Cruijf wrote:
S wrote:Barca's midfield RIGHT NOW is only inferior to Bayern and maybe Real.None else.

What exactly have you seen to indicate that? First of all, Juve showed in the CL final that their midfield was indeed superior to Barca's. If Pirlo was 2 years younger and Vidal wasn't having a poor season, they might have won. As it was, they were killed by Barca's lethal counter attacks.

Nevertheless, midfield domination was never one of Barca's strengths this season. Their success was in being very direct when they won possession and relying on the brilliance of their front three.

Iniesta and Rakitic were immense yes, but mostly in the defensive side of their game (where they were heavily underrated). On the ball, they had very simple jobs. I guarantee you had they played Bayern at full strength, the extent of their weakness in midfield would have been exposed.

Honestly, if you want any proof of Barca's midfield being nothing special, watch the second Clasico of the recently concluded season. They were dominated by a midfield of two number 10s and a half fit Modric Laughing

LOL in that Clasico the midfield was Mascherano-Rakitic-Iniesta... When Busquets came on it was all Barca.

Only Bayern truly dominated the midfield solely because it suited Barca's game plan.
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Post by Sri Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:24 pm

The problem is recursive logic. Classic chicken and egg.

Definition of 'world class' in this thread seems to be players who are playing regularly in the Semi/Final of CL or thereabouts.

English teams not making it to these stages -> PL players are 'good' but not 'world class'.

Therefore, any player who leaves to a team which ends up performing well in the CL (eg. Suarez/Modric/Bale) then merits a 'world class' tag.

Players who were earlier in these teams (eg. Özil, Yaya Toure, Alexis, ...) are not worthy of being 'World Class' any more.

Then of course you end up with a lopsided (in my perception) view that all 'world class potential' players want to leave England and so on and so forth.

hmm

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Post by LeBéninois Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:37 pm

Ozil, Yaya and Alexis are WC and there many others. That being said, it's true that there are more good to very good players in the EPL than truly WC. Others wise, more england teams would be in the semis and quarters finals of the CL. Tottenham did well in CL with Modric and Bale and now that they are gone they are struggling despite having bought many very good players to replace them.
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Post by Thimmy Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:37 pm

jibers wrote:Depends on the draw. If any of the EPL teams draw PSG, Bayern, Madrid, Atletico or Barcelona then it's lights out. Only way I can see any English teams is if English teams get through the 1st round knockout and draw each other.


I'm honestly not convinced that Real Madrid have proven in recent months that they can keep up a high performance level consistently enough to be relied upon to be able to beat non-elite teams, let alone the EPL's elite teams. If Real Madrid draw against Chelsea, ima have to order a shipment of energy drinks, just to keep myself from falling asleep. Speaking of falling asleep.. Vásquez Sleep
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Post by Cruijf Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:37 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Nonsense lol.

Iniesta and Busquets dominated that final lol, people can talk about Iniesta all they want to in general but in the final and the KO stages of the CL he was brilliant.

How was Juve's midfield superior? Vidal was more known for fouling as he was being passed circles around, Pogba's impact was most felt in and around the box and Pirlo gave the ball away more than anyone.

Marchisio was the only one who actually came away with any of sort credit tbh, also Madrid dominated a Barca midfield without Busquets as soon as Busquets came on it was all Barca Laughing

Plus it makes me laugh as no one mentions Messi when they discuss Barca's midfield, considering he is their midfield lmao.

So yes you are vastly underrating it, it may not be tiki taka brilliance as it was once was but it's still vastly better than most.


To say Iniesta and Rakitic dominated the final is just plain wrong, sorry. The game was very open, the only time a team dominated was Juve, from the beginning of the second half until Suarez's goal. It's that period of the game that leads me to saying Juve's midfield was superior, because the minute they stopped sitting off they began to control the game.

As for the whole, 'Busquets dominated Madrid' thing, their loss of control was more due to fatigue than anything else. Barca had already been edging back into the game before Busquets came on. Had Carlo not driven the team into the ground, and had Modric been fully fit, it might have been a different story.

As for Messi, it is a fair point that he is by far their best midfielder, but as the season progressed and Barca got more and more direct, he started dropping into the middle less and less. Watch both Bayern games and the CL final and you'll see what I mean.

My point is simply that the way Barca plays, their midfield has two jobs, neither of which have anything to do with controlling the middle of the park.

1. Cover for a front three that never tracks back and two fullbacks that attack more than Marcelo
2. Get the ball to the front three as soon as possession is won.

That's it. To say top level games are won in the middle of the park when the best team in the world has a midfield that does the jobs above is simply wrong.
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Post by Dnmac4 Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:41 am

srigooner wrote:The problem is recursive logic. Classic chicken and egg.

Definition of 'world class' in this thread seems to be players who are playing regularly in the Semi/Final of CL or thereabouts.

English teams not making it to these stages -> PL players are 'good' but not 'world class'.

Therefore, any player who leaves to a team which ends up performing well in the CL (eg. Suarez/Modric/Bale) then merits a 'world class' tag.

Players who were earlier in these teams (eg. Özil, Yaya Toure, Alexis, ...) are not worthy of being 'World Class' any more.

Then of course you end up with a lopsided (in my perception) view that all 'world class potential' players want to leave England and so on and so forth.

hmm


Alexis isn't world class and neither is Ozil anymore.

Alexis was shipped from Barca to make way for a world class player.  Alexis would no longer be able to start for Barcelona and that is the difference.

They sold Alexis to get a better player in the EPL much of the time it's the total opposite they sell great/world class players and buy like 2 to 3 good players.  I mean look at the Suarez and Bale money, did either team come anywhere close to replacing those players?

Madrid sells Ozil and wins La Decima once he's gone, Ozil doesn't get into that team.  I'm sorry Sri but you need to look no further than the Arsenal board if you want to call Ozil world class.  

Your own fans don't even believe it.

That being said the EPL as a league has world class players, hell IMO they have 3 world class keepers one there going to lose and replace with Sergio Romero (The pattern keeps going) the difference being these other teams there competing against have world class players through there squads not through out there leagues.
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Post by Lomka Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:36 am

Alexis is world class. he lacked arrogance and self esteem of suarez and neymar

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Post by Dnmac4 Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:53 am

No he's not.

I watched him every game for a couple years at Barca. Neymar and Suarez are comfortably a tier above him as is Robben, Ribery Messi, Ronaldo, Mueller etc etc

He's a great player but not world class. I watched the man mess up so many chances given to him on a plate it wasn't even funny, actually his best year was the year Barca shipped him out, that's all you really need to know.

They saw the best of him and figured he didn't cut it.
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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:12 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Cruijf wrote:
S wrote:Barca's midfield RIGHT NOW is only inferior to Bayern and maybe Real.None else.

What exactly have you seen to indicate that? First of all, Juve showed in the CL final that their midfield was indeed superior to Barca's.

Honestly, if you want any proof of Barca's midfield being nothing special, watch the second Clasico of the recently concluded season. They were dominated by a midfield of two number 10s and a half fit Modric Laughing


Nonsense lol.

Iniesta and Busquets dominated that final lol, people can talk about Iniesta all they want to in general but in the final and the KO stages of the CL he was brilliant.

How was Juve's midfield superior? Vidal was more known for fouling as he was being passed circles around, Pogba's impact was most felt in and around the box and Pirlo gave the ball away more than anyone.

Marchisio was the only one who actually came away with any of sort credit tbh, also Madrid dominated a Barca midfield without Busquets as soon as Busquets came on it was all Barca Laughing

Plus it makes me laugh as no one mentions Messi when they discuss Barca's midfield, considering he is their midfield lmao.

So yes you are vastly underrating it, it may not be tiki taka brilliance as it was once was but it's still vastly better than most.


Just to put things into perspective. Pirlo actually completed the most passes from Juve, and that's 38 passes.

I think 4 Barca players completed more passes than him.

Juve were not bad, but Barca simply outplayed them.
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Post by Sri Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:34 am

Dnmac4 wrote:

Alexis isn't world class and neither is Ozil anymore.

Alexis was shipped from Barca to make way for a world class player.  Alexis would no longer be able to start for Barcelona and that is the difference.

They sold Alexis to get a better player in the EPL much of the time it's the total opposite they sell great/world class players and buy like 2 to 3 good players.  I mean look at the Suarez and Bale money, did either team come anywhere close to replacing those players?

Madrid sells Ozil and wins La Decima once he's gone, Ozil doesn't get into that team.  I'm sorry Sri but you need to look no further than the Arsenal board if you want to call Ozil world class.  

Your own fans don't even believe it.

That being said the EPL as a league has world class players, hell IMO they have 3 world class keepers one there going to lose and replace with Sergio Romero (The pattern keeps going) the difference being these other teams there competing against have world class players through there squads not through out there leagues.


Özil has always had his fans and his detractors. If that makes your case for why/how someone stops being world class once they left the mighty La Liga for the donkey PL, then you basically reinforced my point. Thanks for that. Thumbs up

Nobody ever said Liverpool or Tottenham (Laughing) spent their money wisely. So those are bad examples too.

Let's pretend that Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Aguero, ... are all shit while we're at it. Because none of them are 'world class' if they play in PL.

And let's pretend Suarez didn't want to move to Arsenal just one year before Barca came calling, or that he signed a new contract with a clear release clause after all the hoola hoop that summer after Arsenal's bid was rejected by Liverpool because they didn't want to do business with a rival. Because you know, 'world class' players don't want to play in shitty PL in England.

The definition of 'world class' is well debated and to no end on this forum. Ultimately, who you consider 'world class' and how you define it is purely subjective - at best, you can have some consensus when a few others agree with you on your definition and which players you allot to that category.

Like I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinions as long as you treat others' opinions also with the respect that you want your opinions to be shown. If you come off as a person who is just hating for the sake of it and going to have only negative things to say about anything and everything to do with England and the PL, then it is quite hard to take your views seriously - as is the case for me right now. I understand that this may well not be the case, but that is exactly how I have understood your views over time here.

Anyway. If you think EPL is crap, your view. Whatever makes you happy. I don't see the need or necessity to try in vain to convince you otherwise.

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Post by B-Mac Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:01 am

we made it to the quarter finals under Moyes

so anything is possible :coffee:

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Post by Dnmac4 Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:43 pm

srigooner wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:

Alexis isn't world class and neither is Ozil anymore.

Alexis was shipped from Barca to make way for a world class player.  Alexis would no longer be able to start for Barcelona and that is the difference.

They sold Alexis to get a better player in the EPL much of the time it's the total opposite they sell great/world class players and buy like 2 to 3 good players.  I mean look at the Suarez and Bale money, did either team come anywhere close to replacing those players?

Madrid sells Ozil and wins La Decima once he's gone, Ozil doesn't get into that team.  I'm sorry Sri but you need to look no further than the Arsenal board if you want to call Ozil world class.  

Your own fans don't even believe it.

That being said the EPL as a league has world class players, hell IMO they have 3 world class keepers one there going to lose and replace with Sergio Romero (The pattern keeps going) the difference being these other teams there competing against have world class players through there squads not through out there leagues.


Özil has always had his fans and his detractors. If that makes your case for why/how someone stops being world class once they left the mighty La Liga for the donkey PL, then you basically reinforced my point. Thanks for that. Thumbs up

Nobody ever said Liverpool or Tottenham (Laughing) spent their money wisely. So those are bad examples too.

Let's pretend that Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Aguero, ... are all shit while we're at it. Because none of them are 'world class' if they play in PL.

And let's pretend Suarez didn't want to move to Arsenal just one year before Barca came calling, or that he signed a new contract with a clear release clause after all the hoola hoop that summer after Arsenal's bid was rejected by Liverpool because they didn't want to do business with a rival. Because you know, 'world class' players don't want to play in shitty PL in England.

The definition of 'world class' is well debated and to no end on this forum. Ultimately, who you consider 'world class' and how you define it is purely subjective - at best, you can have some consensus when a few others agree with you on your definition and which players you allot to that category.

Like I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinions as long as you treat others' opinions also with the respect that you want your opinions to be shown. If you come off as a person who is just hating for the sake of it and going to have only negative things to say about anything and everything to do with England and the PL, then it is quite hard to take your views seriously - as is the case for me right now. I understand that this may well not be the case, but that is exactly how I have understood your views over time here.

Anyway. If you think EPL is crap, your view. Whatever makes you happy. I don't see the need or necessity to try in vain to convince you otherwise.


First off I didn't say the EPL is crap I asked if they will produce a team to make the final 4 of the CL which should be Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, and City's ambitions with the money spent on there teams.

And I've asked where the disconnect is with all the money they have been spending and the product it finally produces where there competitors in Europe seem to be much more shrewd in the market and hang on to there great players.

OK, Suarez flirted with Arsenal, who cares?  He didn't go there.  Stop living in what may have happened land.  It kinda just proves my point, had Arsenal actually signed him I doubt they lose to Monaco last year.

OK, tell me why Ozil is world class since leaving Madrid.  Make a case for it because I could probably go back to your own board and find you and the rest of your fans dissing him.

Out of the players you listed= Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Aguero.

Aguero is world class, Silva is world class and Toure is world class.  I for one was against Barca selling Fabregas and think he's world class but it's pretty close as he tends to forget about the second half of the season.  If someone thinks he's not world class than I wouldn't argue that anymore.

Costa is not world class but a very good striker.  I backed him to do well in the EPL because it fits his style but is he Neymar, Messi, Ibra, Suarez, Aguero, Rooney, Muller, I just don't think so.

Hazard is world class.

Point being you named 4 or 5 players for the league where the top tier teams have 3-4 world class players in there squad.

IMO the definition of world class is if you have to think about it, there not world class.  Or if they have 4-5 players better than them at there position there a tier below. FWIW.
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Post by Curtinho Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:59 pm

I think barring an early draw against Bayern or Barca that City will make the semis.
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Post by Sri Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:30 pm

Dnmac4 wrote:
srigooner wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:

Alexis isn't world class and neither is Ozil anymore.

Alexis was shipped from Barca to make way for a world class player.  Alexis would no longer be able to start for Barcelona and that is the difference.

They sold Alexis to get a better player in the EPL much of the time it's the total opposite they sell great/world class players and buy like 2 to 3 good players.  I mean look at the Suarez and Bale money, did either team come anywhere close to replacing those players?

Madrid sells Ozil and wins La Decima once he's gone, Ozil doesn't get into that team.  I'm sorry Sri but you need to look no further than the Arsenal board if you want to call Ozil world class.  

Your own fans don't even believe it.

That being said the EPL as a league has world class players, hell IMO they have 3 world class keepers one there going to lose and replace with Sergio Romero (The pattern keeps going) the difference being these other teams there competing against have world class players through there squads not through out there leagues.


Özil has always had his fans and his detractors. If that makes your case for why/how someone stops being world class once they left the mighty La Liga for the donkey PL, then you basically reinforced my point. Thanks for that. Thumbs up

Nobody ever said Liverpool or Tottenham (Laughing) spent their money wisely. So those are bad examples too.

Let's pretend that Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Aguero, ... are all shit while we're at it. Because none of them are 'world class' if they play in PL.

And let's pretend Suarez didn't want to move to Arsenal just one year before Barca came calling, or that he signed a new contract with a clear release clause after all the hoola hoop that summer after Arsenal's bid was rejected by Liverpool because they didn't want to do business with a rival. Because you know, 'world class' players don't want to play in shitty PL in England.

The definition of 'world class' is well debated and to no end on this forum. Ultimately, who you consider 'world class' and how you define it is purely subjective - at best, you can have some consensus when a few others agree with you on your definition and which players you allot to that category.

Like I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinions as long as you treat others' opinions also with the respect that you want your opinions to be shown. If you come off as a person who is just hating for the sake of it and going to have only negative things to say about anything and everything to do with England and the PL, then it is quite hard to take your views seriously - as is the case for me right now. I understand that this may well not be the case, but that is exactly how I have understood your views over time here.

Anyway. If you think EPL is crap, your view. Whatever makes you happy. I don't see the need or necessity to try in vain to convince you otherwise.


First off I didn't say the EPL is crap I asked if they will produce a team to make the final 4 of the CL which should be Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, and City's ambitions with the money spent on there teams.

And I've asked where the disconnect is with all the money they have been spending and the product it finally produces where there competitors in Europe seem to be much more shrewd in the market and hang on to there great players.

OK, Suarez flirted with Arsenal, who cares?  He didn't go there.  Stop living in what may have happened land.  It kinda just proves my point, had Arsenal actually signed him I doubt they lose to Monaco last year.

OK, tell me why Ozil is world class since leaving Madrid.  Make a case for it because I could probably go back to your own board and find you and the rest of your fans dissing him.

Out of the players you listed= Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Aguero.

Aguero is world class, Silva is world class and Toure is world class.  I for one was against Barca selling Fabregas and think he's world class but it's pretty close as he tends to forget about the second half of the season.  If someone thinks he's not world class than I wouldn't argue that anymore.

Costa is not world class but a very good striker.  I backed him to do well in the EPL because it fits his style but is he Neymar, Messi, Ibra, Suarez, Aguero, Rooney, Muller, I just don't think so.

Hazard is world class.

Point being you named 4 or 5 players for the league where the top tier teams have 3-4 world class players in there squad.

IMO the definition of world class is if you have to think about it, there not world class.  Or if they have 4-5 players better than them at there position there a tier below. FWIW.


We've done this tango enough times before and I don't see us getting anywhere with it this time either. Like I said, you have as much right to your views as I have to mine. I have no need to convince you that what I believe is the only reality and that your views are shit, or vice versa for that matter. Let's leave it at that and skip the never ending, vain discussions.

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Post by Casciavit Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:43 pm

Their is no way City will make it to the semis. Their defensive organization is awful. Unless they get an easy path, they'll be knocked out by one of the elite six.
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Post by Dnmac4 Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:21 am

srigooner wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:
srigooner wrote:


Özil has always had his fans and his detractors. If that makes your case for why/how someone stops being world class once they left the mighty La Liga for the donkey PL, then you basically reinforced my point. Thanks for that. Thumbs up

Nobody ever said Liverpool or Tottenham (Laughing) spent their money wisely. So those are bad examples too.

Let's pretend that Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Aguero, ... are all shit while we're at it. Because none of them are 'world class' if they play in PL.

And let's pretend Suarez didn't want to move to Arsenal just one year before Barca came calling, or that he signed a new contract with a clear release clause after all the hoola hoop that summer after Arsenal's bid was rejected by Liverpool because they didn't want to do business with a rival. Because you know, 'world class' players don't want to play in shitty PL in England.

The definition of 'world class' is well debated and to no end on this forum. Ultimately, who you consider 'world class' and how you define it is purely subjective - at best, you can have some consensus when a few others agree with you on your definition and which players you allot to that category.

Like I said in my first post, you have the right to your opinions as long as you treat others' opinions also with the respect that you want your opinions to be shown. If you come off as a person who is just hating for the sake of it and going to have only negative things to say about anything and everything to do with England and the PL, then it is quite hard to take your views seriously - as is the case for me right now. I understand that this may well not be the case, but that is exactly how I have understood your views over time here.

Anyway. If you think EPL is crap, your view. Whatever makes you happy. I don't see the need or necessity to try in vain to convince you otherwise.


First off I didn't say the EPL is crap I asked if they will produce a team to make the final 4 of the CL which should be Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, and City's ambitions with the money spent on there teams.

And I've asked where the disconnect is with all the money they have been spending and the product it finally produces where there competitors in Europe seem to be much more shrewd in the market and hang on to there great players.

OK, Suarez flirted with Arsenal, who cares?  He didn't go there.  Stop living in what may have happened land.  It kinda just proves my point, had Arsenal actually signed him I doubt they lose to Monaco last year.

OK, tell me why Ozil is world class since leaving Madrid.  Make a case for it because I could probably go back to your own board and find you and the rest of your fans dissing him.

Out of the players you listed= Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Toure, Silva, Aguero.

Aguero is world class, Silva is world class and Toure is world class.  I for one was against Barca selling Fabregas and think he's world class but it's pretty close as he tends to forget about the second half of the season.  If someone thinks he's not world class than I wouldn't argue that anymore.

Costa is not world class but a very good striker.  I backed him to do well in the EPL because it fits his style but is he Neymar, Messi, Ibra, Suarez, Aguero, Rooney, Muller, I just don't think so.

Hazard is world class.

Point being you named 4 or 5 players for the league where the top tier teams have 3-4 world class players in there squad.

IMO the definition of world class is if you have to think about it, there not world class.  Or if they have 4-5 players better than them at there position there a tier below. FWIW.


We've done this tango enough times before and I don't see us getting anywhere with it this time either. Like I said, you have as much right to your views as I have to mine. I have no need to convince you that what I believe is the only reality and that your views are shit, or vice versa for that matter. Let's leave it at that and skip the never ending, vain discussions.


So basically you don't believe Ozil is world class?
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