AC Milan vs Palermo

celikmilan wrote:Pippo must be sacked tonight. Lopez and De Jong played good, the rest was awful.

And then we'll get who? Moyes? Besides it's ridiculous to sack someone after their SECOND loss of the season.

3 points from third place and ahead of Inter. Definitely in favour of sacking Pippo.

After all, Allegri should be available come Thursday.

JespSwe wrote:

Arquitescu wrote:By far our worst performance of this season. 2 games ago we went from a draw with positives taken, to a draw that brought out nothing but frustration to a loss in the San Siro with not a single progressive example to take out within the team.

We look(ed) a team bereft of any ideas on how to attack let alone create, a team led by the provinciale del provinciale beat us while our reactions were non-existent despite the line moved noticeably higher in the second.

Have the players already become jaded and disillusioned by a poor string of results? Has Pippo ran out of ways to motivate a team to whom share little chemistry with each other?

Players without a doubt hold responsibility here as if they held half of El Shaarawy or Poli or de Jong's work rate then we would create something yet it is a team that resembles a grid that is without any of its congruent parts.

The calls for sacking Pippo are completely and utterly unjustified though. We have had a good start with streaks of a convictive system in progress as a minor slump in results should NOT have us calling for a manager we just supported 1-2 games ago.

You sack a manager when a team is in crisis, and when the manager cannot overcome that crisis. We are nowhere near a crisis and must keep faith in a coach who has shown FAR more positive traits than Clarence Seedorf.

This isn't *bleep* Inter.

Speaking of Seedorf, yes our legend was unjustly sacked and was not given enough time yet most of the time he seemed a coach better left to model on the sidelines than to actually react. His initial approach was left dry as bringing him back will yield absolutely *bleep* all. Why? The problem has commenced with this disastrous management not providing funds let alone options for Pippo to reinforce as he pleases as despite the quality in our starting XI we are devoid of any depth to build upon a system which lacks the fundamental traits to complete his ideas.

Within midfield we need Montolivo back if not a distributor who won't just settle for short passes to connect to the next. Poli's work has been overlooked while de Jong has been fantastic yet a playmaker in the form of Xabi Alonso (whom we missed out on predictably) is needed to push the midfield urgency or at least a box to box presence who can link our midfield to attack.

I leave our front flank without blame as you cannot grow an olive without a crop to catalyze its balance.

We have now wasted possibly the easiest run of our season and now face the fixture of Sampdoria at their home next saturday with the subsequent Milan derby after that.

This will be Pippo's biggest test yet in digging a team devoid of any confidence out of the hole they have unnecessarily dug themselves.

Forza Milan. Keep your chins up you sheep.

you dostov and dante and few other fellow posters put a very diplomatic thoughts on current situation.

I try to become one, but this whole idea of taking it granted for 5-6 years since the last CL success has taken a toll on me, im pretty sure its for milan fans too.


well 5-6 years they have been giving a lot of excuses, gone through numerous transitions, and they have spoon fed the lies to fans and failed to keep their part of bargain.

well if 5-6 of years of time hasn't given a thought for management to see fundamental problems... i dont see how I can foresee positive changes in the future, for every changes they have made, it has gone for the worse.

as long as galliani and berlusconi is on helm.... this will repeat, for upcoming games, upcoming months, and seasons.


i think its time you guys stop playing nice and diplomatic and be more vocal about it for underlying problems.

we cant even play basic fundamental football, nor some of our players have competence to do so. those who handpicked players should be fired!

Broken, provincial Italian mentality. Coaches do *bleep* all, are negative and make the most baffling sub/rotation decisions, compounded by upper management who offer 5,000 excuses and 0 solutions about the football financial issues and all that shit.

Jesps slowly but surely turning into Fadi lol

Patience friends, the road back to glory will be long.

So then, embarrassed by a side populated by redneck beards that wouldn't look out of place on Turtleman. It was an entirely shameful performance, however I do want to bring a balanced viewpoint to the table.

Firstly, that we lost Alex after just two minutes was evidence of poor man management by Inzaghi to risk our best central defender this year ahead of our hardest 6 game run all year. If he was such a risk he should have been rested as Bonaventura was. Inzaghi is learning so he gets a pass on most things such as this, however it must be noted in the review.

Abate has spoken since the game about our lack of humility and the absence of our "provincial" attitude today. Everything we saw in the first half spoke of a team that underestimated their opponents and in the second of a team lacking belief. We turned around a two goal deficit against Palermo the last time we played them at home, however whereas in that game we showed determination and stamped our authority on the game in midfield to pin Palermo back and grind them down, here we were controlled by a side willing to give us possession where we could not hurt them and who congested space well having taken a commanding lead.

In truth we had been fortunate not to concede earlier. After a poor attempt at a back pass from Abate that was intercepted en route to Alex we were rescued by Diego Lopez for not the first time during the evening. It was a torrid first half for Abate, which also included being well beaten in the air at a corner by The Thing They Call Munoz. His performance was characterised not simply by one early error on the ball but by poor decision in possession throughout. The tendency to go long was encouraged by Palermo's pressure on occasions however at times it was an avenue taken without need. Abate's recourse to a low percentage option was frustrating at a time when we needed to control the tempo and bring the game back onto our terms but instead it fed into our general play. Too often we went long to an isolated Torres which encouraged the separation of our lines that made pressing impossible. Our wide forwards were having to work hard to get back into a defensive shape as we lost the ball cheaply so often and attacks built from midfield were few and far between. We did occasionally produce moments of quality. The combination of De Sciglio, Saponara and Menez led us to break down the left side at lightning pace, with Morganella having to accept a yellow card to halt the move, however there was no consistency to our game plan. Too often we moved the ball too slowly, allowing Palermo's five man backline to easily shuffle across and sweep up our aimless crosses or block attempts to cut into the centre and shoot. At no point did we keep Palermo pinned in their own half for an extended period of time. Instead of shifting the ball from side to side at a high tempo to force the backline to constantly readjust their line and switch markers in the hope of opening up a fault we were impatient. Poor composure, hasty decision making, selfish play, unease in tight spaces and lethargic movement allowed Palermo to sit back for a short time before getting yet another opportunity to break at speed. Too often our midfield was simply bypassed after the ball was given away foolishly in our own half or when the team had failed to adjust in attack and was unbalanced. Almost every player was at one stage responsible for a turnover that resulted not from intense pressure but poor decision making or technique.

The goals conceded were embarrassing but we might well have conceded more if not for two more excellent interventions from Diego Lopez, who is the one player who escapes without criticism for his performance tonight, one odd pass aside. What was so evident against Lazio though to begin the season, a hunger in defence to cover each other, to aggressively confront our opposition and close space rapidly was barely ever on display against Palermo. We've said before that the greatest sin this season could be to lose a match not because we were inferior but because the other side wanted it more. We committed the first sin in football tonight.

There are very few positives, however I will mention some things worthy of recognition at least. Abate's first half was horrid however he was greatly improved in the second and largely reduced the long hopeful balls, whilst offering far more in attack and carried the ball forward with great purpose, though it was too little and his delivery remained inconsistent into the box.

El Shaarawy, once more, decided his first action of the game would be to pass across our back four directly to a striker, however he was a positive addition to the side in the first half. Poli was largely anonymous during the first half and it was a positive substitution. Indeed, in contrast to some of the previous comments made, I would argue that Pippo's substitutions were entirely justified and improved our play. That it was insufficient should not overshadow the fact that it was an improvement. I questioned the decision to maintain Honda's position on the right flank, with Menez instead assuming a central position behind Torres as we moved to a pivot, however it was a logical choice and certainly improved our combinations. The same issues in our play persisted, impatience and poor decision making in combination with technical faults that broken down plays at key moments, however the direction from the bench was clear and had purpose. The withdrawal of Honda for Pazzini was similarly to be applauded in my eyes. Honda had endured a tough game in which he offered very little and was also likely suffering from fatigue. The decision to move to a 4-4-2 gave us a greater physical presence in the box and for the first time granted us the opportunity to benefit from the rather direct game that we tend to fall back into when panic sets in and at least ensured we had a chance to pull back the deficit.

The other positive I wish to mention is Saponara. Whilst it has been mentioned that Muntari's defensive cover against the counter attack was missing, I thought he largely used the ball well, showed the ability to take on a man in midfield to create space, was comfortable combining with his fullback and created our best chance of the day with his cross that Torres should have buried, or at least gotten on target. Defensively he has to improve to better cover passing lanes, however in a game in which the team actually shows up mentally I think he'd be very capable of playing a part in our pressing and I'd like to see him get more game time from now on.

Regardless of our performance today, Inzaghi should not be the target of such vitriol. We are in a race for the league and each game we compete for the same three points. A hard fought performance or a game in which we never showed up garners the same reward. The important thing is how we react to setbacks like this. It's a wake up call to the team and to the problems within our squad and within our game plan. Inzaghi will be working harder than ever this week, so let's give him a chance.

We are about to play every other side in the Top 10 that we've yet to meet over 6 match days. That's when we'll see what Inzaghi and this squad are truly made of. Not over 90 minutes but over many grueling months.

Didn't watch the game, seems like I made the right decision

Let's talk tactics...

If there's one point I'd make, it's that I'd like to see the team press properly.

At the moment we have 1-2 players who might occasionally put pressure on the ball-carrier. This is the worst possible thing a team can do because it makes players waste energy and move out of their positions for no end product.

What are the chances of winning the ball when you press this way? 5%, if that. But what are the chances of winning the ball with a good press? 80%, perhaps more.

In my opinion, to be a successful team in the modern game, you have only two tactical options:

1. Sit deep and counter.
2. Press hard, defend from the front.

Doing either one in a half-assed way is a compromise.

There is no room for experimentation with a hybrid system because the rationales of options 1) and 2) are completely different. Not to mention that it confuses the players, who won't know whether to press or hang back.

I personally have no ideological preference. Both options work, but whatever we are doing now is an ineffective, half-assed press, straight from the losing team's playbook.

It need not be this way.

I would suggest that the hard press would suit our team more considering the players we have at our disposal - the squad is now mostly consisting of quick, agile, high stamina players. Admittedly, this is more so the case when SES is on the field and Muntari and Essien are not.

We need to have the squad trained using zonal marking across the whole length of the field. Our CF needs to press the opposition CB with the help of the CM and the closest wide-forward. The opposition LB needs to be pressed by the CF, the LF and the LM. The opposition CM needs to be pressed by the CDM, and the closest 2-3 players. And so on and so forth.

The take home message is that for this Milan to win games and play well, the team must consistently execute a coordinated press with 3 or 4 players each time we lose the ball. I await the day Pippo realises this, or alternatively, goes full-Mou.

Whilst that would be ideal, I don't believe we'll truly see this emerge. It's not something you can simply switch on and off, it has to be part of the fabric of the team. The mentality to immediately press up and constrict the space in which the opposition can play just isn't in most of our players, the instinct in some is to stand off, in others to close down. You need unity and constant training however the fact that we're not doing it constantly in games and that we're certainly not improving or seeing growing evidence of its implementation tells me that it's not a tenet that is being developed during training.

I disagree with the exclusion of Muntari though. He's probably got the most endurance of anyone in the side, it's essentially why he's always in the team. It doesn't matter if we play two games a week, you just know he's going to be ready. I don't see why he couldn't be a cog in a pressing machine, I've never had any issues at all with his positional play. I don't think you could question his understanding of space. His issues come down to his decision making and ability on the ball and he's also one of our more agile midfielders. Again, we actually have a set of midfielders who all have quality, but we don't have the collective mentality and we're not bringing it to each and every game. We might be able to effectively smother some teams in the odd game, we do occasionally display some sense of cohesion, but Inzaghi's clearly taking us in another direction in my eyes.

I think that whilst a pressing system isn't something you can turn on and off, you can tell the difference between a team where a system is coming into place and a team where the players are above the system - whatever system that may be. I think we're still in the latter category and I would like us to move to the former.

The relevant questions are: what is Inzaghi's direction? Where are we going? And is that the best place to go?

The comments made by Inzaghi though don't suggest that he ever envisions taking us towards the sort of game where we attempt to press and impose ourselves no matter the opposition, as Bayern or Leverkusen do, or as Barca one did. Rather, if anything, Inzaghi seems to speak of taking us towards a model similar to that of Simeone's Atletico. In that sense we combine a high press up the pitch with a deep line if the ball makes it above the half way line. The high press comes into effect immediately after the ball is lost high up the pitch to either win the ball back instantly to attack the side whilst they are in transition or to force them to go sideways or backwards and hold up the attack. The instinct though isn't to continue to push up and constrict the space with a high line but to drop deep once more with a bank of four and five - a subtlety compared to Atleti - if they escape the initial press. Then we simply restrict the space in behind and congest the middle. We would naturally need to tweak this system with a single striker but it's too early to speak of the subtleties before we really see this enforced consistently.

In any case, that's what Inzaghi's comments have led me to believe he perceives as ideal, but we've certainly not seen any consistency yet in our approach. It's takes a while to enforce such changes and alter the mentality of the players though, so it could be something that they are working on.

dostoevsky wrote:The comments made by Inzaghi though don't suggest that he ever envisions taking us towards the sort of game where we attempt to press and impose ourselves no matter the opposition, as Bayern or Leverkusen do, or as Barca one did. Rather, if anything, Inzaghi seems to speak of taking us towards a model similar to that of Simeone's Atletico. In that sense we combine a high press up the pitch with a deep line if the ball makes it above the half way line. The high press comes into effect immediately after the ball is lost high up the pitch to either win the ball back instantly to attack the side whilst they are in transition or to force them to go sideways or backwards and hold up the attack. The instinct though isn't to continue to push up and constrict the space with a high line but to drop deep once more with a bank of four and five - a subtlety compared to Atleti - if they escape the initial press. Then we simply restrict the space in behind and congest the middle. We would naturally need to tweak this system with a single striker but it's too early to speak of the subtleties before we really see this enforced consistently.

In any case, that's what Inzaghi's comments have led me to believe he perceives as ideal, but we've certainly not seen any consistency yet in our approach. It's takes a while to enforce such changes and alter the mentality of the players though, so it could be something that they are working on.

Honestly, I see no evidence of this at all. If that's what we're going for, we've failed so far.

I agree with Dost on Inzaghi's vision, he also mentioned in pre-season that he hopes to emulate the organisation and defensive capacity of Costa Rica in the WC. Though we have conceded a lot since the start, and our defensive ability has been poor. I think it's mostly due to the individual errors of certain players, we've shown greater cohesiveness in the defense than past season. The odd game aside, the mentality of the players need to change, and that will take a while

I very much agree with you Forza that if that's the plan, we've failed. I'm almost certain that Inzaghi referenced the idea in pre-season but our pressing has been haphazard and our intensity in general has dropped over the last few games.

It might come down to Inzaghi choosing to focus first on the way we build play and attack, but even then, we're not consistent within games or even between them. Right now we have less of a style than under Allegri or even Seedorf. It's early days though. In the defensive phase we've mostly just shown greater desperation and our wide forwards have been very disciplined in protecting their fullbacks.

El Shaarawy wrote:I agree with Dost on Inzaghi's vision, he also mentioned in pre-season that he hopes to emulate the organisation and defensive capacity of Costa Rica in the WC. Though we have conceded a lot since the start, and our defensive ability has been poor. I think it's mostly due to the individual errors of certain players, we've shown greater cohesiveness in the defense than past season. The odd game aside, the mentality of the players need to change, and that will take a while

The problem with such a plan is that one can't simultaneously emulate the defensive cohesiveness of that Costa Rica side and take the game to teams. Costa Rica used a five man backline and sat back to take away space in behind. Their two strikers harassed those in possession about the centre circle and moved to compress the game into one flank by encouraging teams to build through the fullbacks, which simply required that those up front protect the passing lane back inside once the central midfielder moved over to defend the flank and force the side to either make a risky pass into the middle or go back to the central defender to recycle possession.

It worked due to the extreme heat in which they played which affected their European opponents more than them, the fact that the sides they encountered were willing to accept control of the ball and give them space in which to counter and the limited attacking cohesion found at national level. Unless we become focused heavily on the counter attack, something that I don't believe particularly suits us, it's difficult to apply the actual structures that Costa Rica used. The attitude of hard work perhaps, but tactically there's little for us to actually apply given that we're no longer in the Champions League. We can match the sides we're competing against in Serie A for talent. We need greater patience on the ball, we need to apply pressure consistently and a few additions to the squad whose first touches don't send the ball five metres in the air wouldn't go amiss either.

We must not forget the manipulating hands of Berlusconi, who affect tactics one way or another.

Bloody waste of oxygen.

dostoevsky wrote:I very much agree with you Forza that if that's the plan, we've failed. I'm almost certain that Inzaghi referenced the idea in pre-season but our pressing has been haphazard and our intensity in general has dropped over the last few games.

It might come down to Inzaghi choosing to focus first on the way we build play and attack, but even then, we're not consistent within games or even between them. Right now we have less of a style than under Allegri or even Seedorf. It's early days though. In the defensive phase we've mostly just shown greater desperation and our wide forwards have been very disciplined in protecting their fullbacks.

I agree for the most part, but I struggle to find the truth in that last statement.

The Atletico Madrid style is really the basic counter attacking system with a time-limited intense pressing in the opposition half. I'm not convinced that this can be done with the 4-3-3 because there's no width in the press - unless the fullback moves up the field and gets exposed in behind. i.e. there's no proper winger in front of the fullback in in a  4-3-3 like there is in a 4-4-2. If there were a proper winger, the overlap could happen more often.

Speaking of which, we've talked about the poor quality of Zapata, but Abate was badly exposed too. Time after time, the huge space he leaves behind him when he goes forward was exploited by Palermo - including for the 2nd goal.

I don't even think it was Abate's fault necessarily. Rather, I think the system forces him to move forward and he has no cover from an overlapping winger like he would in a 4-4-2. The bottom line is that if you are intent on playing a 4-3-3, you have to be all about ball retention because you've committed to having 3 dedicated attackers up there who have less defensive responsibility than wingers or attacking midfielders.

I was speaking of what happens once we've surrendered possession and dropped into our own half. Honda/El Sha/Jack/Menez have all shown urgency to regain their position. Of course it's also important that we've actually had a deal of consistency this season in our line-up unlike last year where injuries and managerial changes led to us transitioning uneasily between the 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 and 4-2-3-1, which affects our defensive structure.

It's naturally different if we're discussing the pressing phase but then again that will depend on the structure of the opposition, it's difficult to discuss in general terms.

Yes. And that brings me back to the overall problem - that is, we have no discernible style whatsoever. You don't know which Milan is going to turn up.