How highly would Maradona be rated if...

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:25 am

...he got caught in the "Hand of God" and sent off vs England? Assume that Argentina would not have scored (since Diego scored both goals) and that Lineker would have still scored, kicking Argentina out of the WC.
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:47 am

The premise doesn't make sense because it wasn't red card offence. As for how he'd be rated today, its speculation as we have no way of knowing what he would have done if failed to win the world cup. I've always suspected achieving his "dream" in 86 had some affect on his professionalism in his later years.
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Post by Kick Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:03 am

@DuringTheWar wrote:The premise doesn't make sense because it wasn't red card offence. As for how he'd be rated today, its speculation as we have no way of knowing what he would have done if failed to win the world cup. I've always suspected achieving his "dream" in 86 had some affect on his professionalism in his later years.


Since the call was missed, I think it's a fair assumption that, had the ref seen it, he could of overreacted and given a red card. It's not beyond the realms of possibility, for me.

I think he'd probably still be rated as an all time great. Perhaps it would have cemented Pele as the best ever but it wouldn't have changed the 'Messi Vs Maradonna' discussions.
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:29 am

I don't think refs had it in their minds to see that sort of thing as a red. Ive seen a lot of instances where a player scored or denied a goal with foul play, but never a red card. Maybe im wrong, maybe it did happen occasionally, but relative to the era it happened in, I don't think it "should" have been a red though, which I thought was implied in the thread.
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Post by Kick Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:33 am

Well, I don't think BC is implying he should have been sent off. I think he is simply asking what would have happened if he was.
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Post by futbol Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:19 pm

He would be remembered in the same bracket as Platini and Zico as one of the best #10s of the 80s. Highly doubt many would call him the best of all time. The WC and THAT goal is what defined his legacy.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:47 am

@Kick wrote:Well, I don't think BC is implying he should have been sent off. I think he is simply asking what would have happened if he was.
Precisely
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Post by LeBéninois Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:53 am

Such a big '' If '' imo. What if Zidane doesn't score those 2 headers ( ?!? , awful Brazil defense ) in 1998's final . What if France didn't score that last minute goal against Italy in 2000 ? Would Zidane be so highly rated ?
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Post by fatman123 Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:36 am

Bénin wrote:Such a big '' If '' imo. What if Zidane doesn't score those 2 headers ( ?!? , awful Brazil defense ) in 1998's final . What if France didn't score that last minute goal against Italy in 2000 ? Would Zidane be so highly rated ?


Yes, because of what he achieved with Madrid
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Post by Harmonica Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:21 pm

Maradona is a nostalgic gold mine, he's overrated because of the goal of the century, and casual fans extrapolate that to rest of the tournament and the World Cup win. When you actually rationally compare example Maradona 86 and Messi 14 game by game, you can see that they are rather similar quality performance's, individually.

He did little outside WC86, including rest of the national team career that with OP's assumption, surely he falls to the second tier of players, at least.

He would've won two Ballon d'Or max, based on Onze d'Or and World Soccer Player, and other one being because of the WC86. With OP's assumption only one Ballon d'Or, or not even that.

1. Messi, Pele, Cruyff, Di Stefano
2. Maradona, ...
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:20 pm

"2 ballon d'ors max", well that's funny because that currently is what messi is on, who has only once won the uefa player of the year award since it replaced the ballon d'or. Maradona won two south American player of the year awards playing in a top league while there were a golden generation of Argentinians and Brazilians who he was competing against, 3 in a different magazine. Add that on top of to two onze d'ors and one English world soccer award, and suddenly it seems that he didn't do "little" outside the world cup.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:30 pm

@DuringTheWar wrote:"2 ballon d'ors max", well that's funny because that currently is what messi is on, who has only once won the uefa player of the year award since it replaced the ballon d'or. Maradona won two south American player of the year awards playing in a top league while there were a golden generation of Argentinians and Brazilians who he was competing against, 3 in a different magazine. Add that on top of to two onze d'ors and one English world soccer award, and suddenly it seems that he didn't do "little" outside the world cup.
World Soccer Player 1982~ (Top 10)

Maradona

1983 4 6%
1985 3 7%
1986 1 35%
1987 2 13%
1988 6 2%
1989 4 7%
1990 3 6%

1 times won, average share of votes 35%
2 times in Top 2, average share of votes 24%
7 times in Top 10, average share of votes 11%

Messi

2007 2 18%
2008 2 15%
2009 1 43%
2010 2 24%
2011 1 60%
2012 1 47%
2013 2 14%

3 times won, average share of votes 50%
7 times in Top 2, average share of votes 32%
7 times in Top 10, average share of votes 32%

And that 1 Maradona win being the 1986 year.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:45 pm

What is your point? it doesn't contradict or argue against anything I wrote.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:47 pm

@DuringTheWar wrote:What is your point? it doesn't contradict or argue against anything I wrote.
It shows the public opinion at the time.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:16 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@DuringTheWar wrote:What is your point? it doesn't contradict or argue against anything I wrote.
It shows the public opinion at the time.


It shows English public opinion of his time in Europe. People who couldn't watch him every week unlike messi, people who were obviously extremely bitter in 1987 and 88, and you can compare their ranking for those years with the onze d'or to see that bitterness clearly. It also shows him from the age of 22 to 30, while it shows messi from the age of 19 to 25 (all years in his physical prime)

It shows they rated maradona 3rd in 85 despite playing for a relegation team and not competing in any European or national competition, and his team losing to all the big teams. This reflects really good on what his own individual performance/reputation was.
It shows the ranked him 3rd in 83 despite his season being side tracked by hepatitis, again it reflects really well on how good his own performances/reputation was.

The last 2 years could be attributed to the fact other great players emerged who were in their prime while maradona had physically gone very far down, the fact that others competed in the European cup while his team was only good enough for the uefa cup, and the world cup in which he was injured, and also, bitterness.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:30 pm

@DuringTheWar wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@DuringTheWar wrote:What is your point? it doesn't contradict or argue against anything I wrote.
It shows the public opinion at the time.


It shows English public opinion of his time in Europe. People who couldn't watch him every week unlike messi, people who were obviously extremely bitter in 1987 and 88, and you can compare their ranking for those years with the onze d'or to see that bitterness clearly. It also shows him from the age of 22 to 30, while it shows messi from the age of 19 to 25 (all years in his physical prime)

It shows they rated maradona 3rd in 85 despite playing for a relegation team and not competing in any European or national competition, and his team losing to all the big teams. This reflects really good on what his own individual performance/reputation was.
It shows the ranked him 3rd in 83 despite his season being side tracked by hepatitis, again it reflects really well on how good his own performances/reputation was.

The last 2 years could be attributed to the fact other great players emerged who were in their prime while maradona had physically gone very far down, the fact that others competed in the European cup while his team was only good enough for the uefa cup, and the world cup in which he was injured, and also, bitterness.
Can you post a link where it says it's only english opinion?

Onze d'or also shows the public opinion at the time, and it's not really different. By it Maradona could have won 1 Ballon d'Or, if we exclude 1986.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:33 pm

Actually, it was a red card offense.  If you intentionally hand the ball in the box, it's an automatic red even in the 80s.

As far as where he'd be?  Depends how he recovered from it.  It's after 1986 that he became the best player in the world.  Platini was considered the best player until then (3 straight BdOs from 1982-1985).  Platini got injured in pool play in the 1986 WC and it was serious (although he played)...  he ended up retiring in summer of 1987 instead of having surgery on the knee that he was dragging around for a year.  

Platini prematurely retiring + the hand of god not getting caught = Maradona got the red carpet to being #1 and he took advantage of it. Take either of those things out of the equation, and knowing Maradona was on cocaine, i doubt he could have mentally pulled himself to the level he reached.
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Post by DuringTheWar Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:22 am

@Harmonica wrote:
@DuringTheWar wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:It shows the public opinion at the time.


It shows English public opinion of his time in Europe. People who couldn't watch him every week unlike messi, people who were obviously extremely bitter in 1987 and 88, and you can compare their ranking for those years with the onze d'or to see that bitterness clearly. It also shows him from the age of 22 to 30, while it shows messi from the age of 19 to 25 (all years in his physical prime)

It shows they rated maradona 3rd in 85 despite playing for a relegation team and not competing in any European or national competition, and his team losing to all the big teams. This reflects really good on what his own individual performance/reputation was.
It shows the ranked him 3rd in 83 despite his season being side tracked by hepatitis, again it reflects really well on how good his own performances/reputation was.

The last 2 years could be attributed to the fact other great players emerged who were in their prime while maradona had physically gone very far down, the fact that others competed in the European cup while his team was only good enough for the uefa cup, and the world cup in which he was injured, and also, bitterness.
Can you post a link where it says it's only english opinion?

Onze d'or also shows the public opinion at the time, and it's not really different. By it Maradona could have won 1 Ballon d'Or, if we exclude 1986.


Cant find anything. They are an English magazine, there was no internet, the world wasn't globalised like it is today. Heck I don't even know anyone now that reads world soccer magazine. I think its an educated assumption that it was voted for by either entirely or majorly English opinion.

Here's the funny thing, not only did WSM have gullit as the 87 winner (who wasn't even in onze d'ors top 3), they had maradona 6th in 88, while onze d'or had maradona third only to van basten and gullit (van basten won because of his great Euro 88win/performance, gullit rated high as well because of that, but also because of ac milans camorra gifted serie a title)
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Post by DuringTheWar Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:01 am

@sportsczy wrote:Actually, it was a red card offense.  If you intentionally hand the ball in the box, it's an automatic red even in the 80s.


This is how the laws are right now:


"
- Disciplinary sanctions
There are circumstances when a caution for unsporting behaviour is required
when a player deliberately handles the ball, e.g. when a player:
• deliberately handles the ball to prevent an opponent gaining possession
attempts to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball
A player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goalscoring
opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment arises not from
the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable
and unfair intervention that prevented a goal being scored. "

Source: FIFA


Even now, its only a red card to prevent a goal, a yellow to score one.

@sportsczy wrote:
As far as where he'd be?  Depends how he recovered from it.  It's after 1986 that he became the best player in the world.  Platini was considered the best player until then (3 straight BdOs from 1982-1985).
 

This isn't exactly the whole story is it? Maradona had a bigger international reputation and status than platini from 79 to 81, and there are a number of different publications that back that up which if you force me to I will bring into this thread. Platini was a late developer, its interesting he was 3 seasons consecutively the serie a top score in his late 20s, but for a decade in French first division he was not once the top scorer. He also had a lot injury problems and played for a small team, maradona was in a similar position for argentinos juniors but he managed to get much more international recognition.

Something else interesting, when maradona went to Napoli, his serie a ratings were higher than platinis.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:25 pm

No he didn't.  Platini had just won the Euro in 1984 and still holds the record for the most goals in a Euro by scoring 9 in that one (in 5 games total).  Also, he'd taken France to the WC semis in 1982 out of nowhere and again in 1986.

You have to realize how crap France NT was before Platini arrived on the scene...  before WC 1978, where a young Platini got France qualified, France hadn't been to a Euro or a WC in 20 years (last participation in anthing was WC 1958).

Compared to Maradona...  Argentina hadn't reached the semis of anything since 1978 until 1986.  Maradona was considered one of the better players, but not one of the great ones.  Just a great talent.  1986 WC put him on the map literally.

Platini was considered by everyone... and i mean 100% of the world...  as the best player from 1982 to 1986.  It wasn't even debatable. 3 straight BdOs prove it.
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:49 pm

Yeah I didn't contradict that? I said maradona was rated higher from 79 to 81.

Don't be silly saying 100% of the world, you realize zico was world soccer player of the year in 1983?

The other thing I said is 100% true, in his first season at napoli 84/85 maradonas serie a ratings were higher than platinis.
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Post by LeSwagg James Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:45 am

If he doesn't 'win' the WC then all the Pele vs Maradona debates end imo. He will still be considered great but no GOAT status.

The real question is how come people sweep his hand ball under the rug so easily? I don't even consider him a World Cup winner tbh. He's a blatant cheater.
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:25 am

That's fine to say he was a cheater, although not considering him a world cup winner is childish (it's not like all his five goals and all his 5 assists were with his hand)

But you have to be consistent. Cheating is part and parcel of football. Which players do you respect and consider winners? Ronaldo the serial diver? Messi the serial handballer? What players are above cheating? Maradona for example was denied numerous goalscoring chances by defenders handballs and professional fouls.

Some players cheat more than others of course, but I think most pro footballers aren't above cheating, and they have something on their track record to prove it.
Usually the key difference between players is certain controversial incidents and the media narratives that surround certain players. Example: Eduardo of arsenal once dived against Celtic and there was a furious media witch hunt that dragged his reputation through the mud,    while Mr Vardy of Leicester city does a blatant dive against Manchester United recently and not a word of criticism, because the media is more interested in the rags to riches story (from playing in non league football to scoring against utd in the premier league)
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Post by LeSwagg James Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:39 am

@DuringTheWar wrote:That's fine to say he was a cheater, although not considering him a world cup winner is childish (it's not like all his five goals and all his 5 assists were with his hand)

But you have to be consistent. Cheating is part and parcel of football. Which players do you respect and consider winners? Ronaldo the serial diver? Messi the serial handballer? What players are above cheating? Maradona for example was denied numerous goalscoring chances by defenders handballs and professional fouls.

Some players cheat more than others of course, but I think most pro footballers aren't above cheating, and they have something on their track record to prove it.
Usually the key difference between players is certain controversial incidents and the media narratives that surround certain players. Example: Eduardo of arsenal once dived against Celtic and there was a furious media witch hunt that dragged his reputation through the mud,    while Mr Vardy of Leicester city does a blatant dive against Manchester United recently and not a word of criticism, because the media is more interested in the rags to riches story (from playing in non league football to scoring against utd in the premier league)



I do consider divers cheaters and I look at them with the same disgust. But let's be real, play acting has become part of the game and a little bit to sell the ref is expected from a lot of players.

Purposely scoring with your hand is much much worse than that imo.
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Post by guest_07 Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:49 am

@fatman123 wrote:
Bénin wrote:Such a big '' If '' imo. What if Zidane doesn't score those 2 headers ( ?!? , awful Brazil defense ) in 1998's final . What if France didn't score that last minute goal against Italy in 2000 ? Would Zidane be so highly rated ?


Yes, because of what he achieved with Madrid


i don't think so

redondo contribute more to madrid than zidane did, but majority of fans still regard zidane higher than redondo

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