Re: The Official Summer Transfer Rumours Thread

[DuringTheWar]

Well we're at our wits end when it comes to strikers and desperate for a solution, heck it's not that long ago we were discussing Walcott as our central striker or ozil as false 9

our rivals have got far far more firepower up front we are not gonna compete. Especially in the big games we are bleeped when we need to create twice as many chances just to draw. And there's nothing we can bleeping do about it   We can sign ozil, we can sign sanchez, but no matter what, we are going to try to win the premier league with giroud and sanogo as our CFs

[Sri]

I can't believe the stick Giroud still gets. Take him out of our lineup and we're conceding twice as much from set plays. I'm guaranteeing that.

Which isn't to say he should start every game but there are so many things people don't take into account when they talk about him.

The problem is, he wasn't signed for 40 million. Clearly, the price tag is among the foremost reasons in judging how much value a player brings to the team - especially the attacking players.

And if not a price tag, you need a solid reputation of banging in goals, no matter how much of that is stat padding against fodder teams. If you don't score 30+ a season, you are a shit striker. It's these stats that matter.

That said, it is highyl frustrating to see him run himself into the ground but not score any goals. He's filling in the boots of Henry and a few others after that.

Make of this, what you will:

1992–93 Ian Wright 30
1993–94 Ian Wright          35
1994–95 Ian Wright          30
1995–96 Ian Wright        22
1996–97 Ian Wright        30
1997–98 Dennis Bergkamp  22
1998–99 Nicolas Anelka 19
1999–2000 Thierry Henry 26
2000–01 Thierry Henry 22
2001–02 Thierry Henry 32
2002–03 Thierry Henry 32
2003–04 Thierry Henry 39
2004–05 Thierry Henry 30
2005–06 Thierry Henry 33
2006–07 Robin van Persie 13
2007–08 Emmanuel Adebayor 30
2008–09 Robin van Persie 20
2009–10 Cesc Fàbregas 19
2010–11 Robin van Persie 22
2011–12 Robin van Persie 37
2012–13 Theo Walcott 21
2013–14 Olivier Giroud 22

[Sri]

^^ Also note that I am not a proponent of basing any decisions purely on numbers. I concede that this is a partial picture.

It will only make sense when these numbers are compared against the total number of goals scored by Arsenal in each of those seasons, the total number of chances created, the shots-to-goal ratio of the key strikers, assists and how many players scored 10+ goals in that season (or how much the goal scoring burden was shared). Ofcourse, you can also make it more complicated by pulling in data on injuries to those players and analyze the games or minutes played per game in the season.

Then, you might have a better picture created. If anyone has the time to do this, I am sure it will be a very interesting read. (I would, if I had time to compile all that data!)

[DuringTheWar]

I don't think it matters which numbers you use, or what way you crunch them. If the result makes giroud look like a very good goalscorer, then it's wrong.

[Sri]

I don't think it matters which numbers you use, or what way you crunch them. If the result makes giroud look like a very good goalscorer, then it's wrong.

And that is just your bias, then.

EDIT: To clarify, I didn't put up numbers to make a case of Giroud as the best striker Arsenal has ever had. I put them up to incite a fact based discussion on how he compares with what we have been used to seeing. Here's an analogy: Remember Arsene saying you can't go back to sausages after Caviar? This was to initiate an exercise on quantitatively testing if Giroud is really just a sausage or if he has the numbers backing him to show that he could be more Caviar.

[DuringTheWar]

I don't think it matters which numbers you use, or what way you crunch them. If the result makes giroud look like a very good goalscorer, then it's wrong.

And that is just your bias, then.

Bias towards real life rather than chunks of data?

[Hapless_Hans]

I guess I agree it's hard to be objective, and surely Giroud is a very good striker.
But what strikes me about him, and that's nothing 'objective' at all, is that he does not seem to project a real goal threat.
He scores, and plays well, but somehow he does not seem dangerous most of the times he receives a ball.
Anyone else got this feeling?

Anyway I know this is not much to go by, the feeling of some random poster lol.
but fwiw the strongest teams he scored against in the league were Tottenham and Southhampton.
That again might not just be his fault, 'not a big game player' etc, as after all you were not exactly a 'big game team' as a whole lol.

[Twoism]

Stats padding my friends, our Giroud is specialized in it. He also did so for France

[MJ]

I don't think it matters which numbers you use, or what way you crunch them. If the result makes giroud look like a very good goalscorer, then it's wrong.

that's pretty blatant bias

[MJ]

@bbcsport_david 1h
Arsenal no longer pursuing Khedira but still in market for DMF, will sign GK & probably DF depending on Jenkinson/Vermaelen situations #AFC

[VendettaRed07]

I guess I agree it's hard to be objective, and surely Giroud is a very good striker.
But what strikes me about him, and that's nothing 'objective' at all, is that he does not seem to project a real goal threat.
He scores, and plays well, but somehow he does not seem dangerous most of the times he receives a ball.
Anyone else got this feeling?

Yes. This. So much this.

There were so many games last year where giroud scored early on, and then just checked out the rest of the game. Might as well have subbed him off right after

I hate to keep slagging him off but ffs is a backup too much to flippin ask

[Raptorgunner]

I guess I agree it's hard to be objective, and surely Giroud is a very good striker.
But what strikes me about him, and that's nothing 'objective' at all, is that he does not seem to project a real goal threat.
He scores, and plays well, but somehow he does not seem dangerous most of the times he receives a ball.
Anyone else got this feeling?

Anyway I know this is not much to go by, the feeling of some random poster lol.
but fwiw the strongest teams he scored against in the league were Tottenham and Southhampton.
That again might not just be his fault, 'not a big game player' etc, as after all you were not exactly a 'big game team' as a whole lol.

We all see this but few try to ignore it. I dont Wenger last year he goes all out for a striker and if it was not for Ramsey's goal scoring we would have not made top4. All we asking is for back up striker that is proven and not send Yaya Sanogo out against Bayern and other top teams while Giroud is banging chicks in his hotel room.

Shot stats from last season big games:

ARS VS EVE 0-3 -6TH APRIL (70mins played)
3 shots- 1 off target, 1 blocked, 1 saved

ARS VS MAN C- 1-1 29 MARCH (84 mins played)
3 shots- all 3 off target!

ARS VS CHE – 0-6 – 22 MARCH
4 shots- 2 shots saved, ( you remember that early shot he had before the flood gates opened? ) 1 shot off target 1 shot blocked

ARS VS SPURS – 1-0 16 MARCH
0 shots

ARS VS BAYERN 1-1 – 11TH MARCH
2 shots – 1 saved 1 blocked

ARS VS MAN U 0-0 – 12TH FEB
5 shots!- 4 shots off target! 1 shot blocked

ARS VS LPOL 1-5 – 8TH FEB ( 60 min played )
2 shots- 1 saved 1 blocked

ARS VS CHE – 0-0 – 23 DEC
2 shots – 1 shot saved 1 shot blocked

ARS VS CITY – 3-6 – 14 DEC ( 75 min played )
3 shots – 2 shots off target 1 shot blocked

ARS VS EVE – 1-1 – 8 DEC
4 shots – 1 blocked 1 saved 1 off target 1 hit the crossbar

ARS VS UTD 0-1 – 10 NOV
2 shots – 1 blocked 1 off target

ARS VS LPOL 2-0 – 02 NOV
2 shots- 1 shot saved 1 shot off target

ARS VS SPURS 1-0 – 1 SEPT
5 shots- 1 goal 2 shots off target 1 shot saved 1 blocked

All of last season our main man Olivier Giroud scored 1 goal in the important games and he had 0 assists.

[Sri]

That's a good stat collection there, Raptor!

Nobody is saying that based on stats, or otherwise, Giroud is a worldbeater. (Again, I brought this up as a basis to compare him with our previous high-profile strikers).

The real question for me is, how many players are available in the market who are really an upgrade on Giroud in our lone striker system?

We can slag Wenger and Giroud for all that it's worth. But my point of contention is that if we had an opportunity, we would have made a signing. Our pursuit of Suarez and Higuain last summer is well documented. I am glad Madrid moved the goal posts on Higuain. We wouldn't have Özil if that wasn't the case, and I think Özil has a much higher impact that Higuain could ever have had. Suarez would have been a good addition, but not at the cost of the number of games he misses through misconduct.

We aren't as rich as a few other clubs to splash 300k p/w on one player's wage.

Again, for all those who don't rate Giroud: Who do you realistically think we could have signed that we didn't? Falcao? Cavani? Mandzukic? Demba Ba? Remy? Andy Carroll?

When there is no alternative, might as well get behind what we have, instead of cribbing about it.

[Hapless_Hans]

there's two different debates in one here though.

-the first is whether Giroud is good enough as your main striker, and then of course, as sri asks, who realistically would be better

-the second is that last season Giroud effectively had no competition for his spot, and when Wenger had to drop him for his disciplinarian stuff (which could be seen as well as a consequence of having no competition though that's speculation) he had to resort to play Sanogo kid from 2nd French league in a CL 1/16 game.
Which is just no the way it should be at a top club, however much you like the kid.


The first is debatable, the second not imo.

So instead of thinking of replacing Giroud (and then accordingly the replacement should be a class above etc pp), you should be having competition for him, and that broadens the field of candidates.
Because then they don't have to be CLEARLY better than him, you can choose who's better for a game in any given circumstance.

I think what's clouding some of this is these thoughts of 'Walcott can play upfront, Podolski can play upfront etc pp".
They can't. Not really. They shouldn't be regarded as competition/cover.

Alexis is another case, if Wenger plans to use him as CF too now and then.

[Ali]

I guess I agree it's hard to be objective, and surely Giroud is a very good striker.
But what strikes me about him, and that's nothing 'objective' at all, is that he does not seem to project a real goal threat.
He scores, and plays well, but somehow he does not seem dangerous most of the times he receives a ball.
Anyone else got this feeling?

Yes. This. So much this.

There were so many games last year where giroud scored early on, and then just checked out the rest of the game. Might as well have subbed him off right after

I hate to keep slagging him off but ffs is a backup too much to flippin ask

A back up is definitely required in my opinion, but Giroud is definitely not as bad as some posters on this board make him seem. However, when Giroud decides to disappear, he REALLY disappears. That's the must frustrating thing about him, but with Campbell rotating (if he's given a chance) Giroud won't burn out this season like last season, he might even improve upon last season.

[Raptorgunner]

I just want us to have true striker to alternate with giroud, its crazy Sonago is even given minutes.  
We are not a small club and we dont need to give crazy wages to have 2 decent strikers, two season – 1 striker = does not work. If Wenger cant see this, I dont know who can.


Joel Campbell hasn't been giving a squad number Arsenal, whats up with that?

[Hapless_Hans]

Sanogo SHOULD absolutely be given minutes, if not he needs to be loaned out, but these minutes can come in other games than against us in the CL.

[Ali]

I just want us to have true striker to alternate with giroud, its crazy Sonago is even given minutes.  
We are not a small club and we dont need to give crazy wages to have 2 decent strikers.


Joel Campbell hasn't been giving a squad number Arsenal, whats up with that?

I have to agree with hapless, Sanogo should def. be getting minutes. In fact, Arsenal looked much better in our F.A cup win when Sanogo came on. I agree though he shouldn't be getting minutes vs Bayern Munich ffs lol

Campbell is probably just waiting for the rest of the "potential" transfers to go through to be given a number.

[Sri]

there's two different debates in one here though.

-the first is whether Giroud is good enough as your main striker, and then of course, as sri asks, who realistically would be better

-the second is that last season Giroud effectively had no competition for his spot, and when Wenger had to drop him for his disciplinarian stuff (which could be seen as well as a consequence of having no competition though that's speculation) he had to resort to play Sanogo kid from 2nd French league in a CL 1/16 game.
Which is just no the way it should be at a top club, however much you like the kid.


The first is debatable, the second not imo.

So instead of thinking of replacing Giroud (and then accordingly the replacement should be a class above etc pp), you should be having competition for him, and that broadens the field of candidates.
Because then they don't have to be CLEARLY better than him, you can choose who's better for a game in any given circumstance.

I think what's clouding some of this is these thoughts of 'Walcott can play upfront, Podolski can play upfront etc pp".
They can't. Not really. They shouldn't be regarded as competition/cover.

Alexis is another case, if Wenger plans to use him as CF too now and then.

Bang on the buck here, thank you!

Reg. your 2nd point: Wenger was already quoted as saying he plans to use Asexis as another option up front. Podolski and Theo played there to varying success, but neither performed in an exemplary way.

I think one highly underrated fact is that since the dutch player departed, the tactics were rejigged so that there were multiple goal threats and there was a reduced reliance on one person to bang it in. Last season, 2 of the main goal threats were injured : Theo and Ramsey. It left Giroud overworked and overwhelmed. It is not surprising that Giroud turned in better performances when Ramsey returned from injury.

Also, I don't believe that our system works too well when we don't have a pivotal big player playing up front. Sanogo deputises well enough for Giroud as a physical presence up front, around whom the 3-4 players behind can play and knock off balls and play 1-2s. See Giroud's 1-2s last season to know what I mean, considering stats are not worth much and you would rather believe your eyes.

For me, Giroud is a package product with a set of skills bundled in. Unfortunately, goal scoring is not his best forte, but what he offers apart from it to others - that's a good deal which is not being adequately replaced by Theo or Podolski up front. The dutch guy was all this AND a goal threat, which left a hole in the frontline with his sale. I see Asexis+Giroud addressing that between them.

If and when we play Asexis or Theo up front for whatever reason, we will have to rejig our formation and tactics to accomodate it and I am not entirely convinced of how that will work in the PL. That's why there is still some scope for Sanogo. The only way for him is up.

[Raptorgunner]

Sanogo SHOULD absolutely be given minutes, if not he needs to be loaned out, but these minutes can come in other games than against us in the CL.

Thats my point, he should be loaned out. Some people including me will never accept average. Something a lot of fans they’ve days have grown accustomed to.

I do agree with Ali in regards Sanogo, this just shows how much better we would have played last year had we brought in a hungry true striker to compete with Giroud.

[Ali]

Sanogo SHOULD absolutely be given minutes, if not he needs to be loaned out, but these minutes can come in other games than against us in the CL.

Thats my point, he should be loaned out. Some people including me will never accept average. Something a lot of fans they’ve days have grown accustomed to.

No offence but if the club listened to most of your advice, we'd be happy to be playing players that are average at all   

[Sri]

Thats my point, he should be loaned out. Some people including me will never accept average. Something a lot of fans they’ve days have grown accustomed to.

Raptor please! Are you suggesting that based on what you have seen of a 20 year old in a handful of games, you can already determine that he is average and will have no ceiling? Just because he was signed before he was in the spotlight, like a Neymar or a Campbell. Come on!

And you have been critical of so many players in these years that I have known you on the forum, including Ramsey earlier. I agree with you when you say we shouldn't settle for average.

But you can't have a squad of 25 first team stars. It isn't realistic. And despite the money we have now, we can not afford 25 people, each earning 100k+ p/w and demanding to start. You are bound to have some average players in squad roles in every team. I know I am exaggerating what you implied, but this is the other extreme point of view then.

[Ali]

I just want us to have true striker to alternate with giroud, its crazy Sonago is even given minutes.  
We are not a small club and we dont need to give crazy wages to have 2 decent strikers, two season – 1 striker = does not work. If Wenger cant see this, I dont know who can.


Joel Campbell hasn't been giving a squad number Arsenal, whats up with that?

Also, Campbell wont train with us till july 28

[Jay29]

Goal output next season isn't going to be a problem, even with Giroud. Arsenal missed Walcott for practically the whole of last season, but they'll have him back this season, and we've just added Alexis. That's adding another 30-40 goals to the side, potentially.

I see people calling Giroud average but we finished 7 points off the title with him up front, and those seven points weren't obtained not because of his shortcomings, but because of the whole team's shortcomings. He's a great foil for the creative and flair players in the side. Limited, yes, but he creates chances for others, and a lot of Arsenal's best moves last season had him involved.

Wenger's quotes suggested that he thinks he's got enough forwards; maybe too many to be adding anymore. He's already hinted at using Alexis through the middle if need be, and Joel Campbell is being added to the squad as well. So you've got Giroud, Campbell, Alexis and Sanogo for CF. Is there any room for another forward here? I don't think there is. Not without players leaving.

Whether they can provide adequate competition is another matter, but that's not an easy thing to judge right now. We can list their respective qualities, but until we see them play we won't be able to tell.

Plus, we can't rule out playing two strikers more often next season. Guys like Podolski, Walcott and maybe Alexis can't play CF on their own, but if they were to have a partner then they could.

[Raptorgunner]

I really have nothing against Sonago, think he has potential but he is too raw. Needs a season on loan to adapt to the English game. Wenger saw something special in Bendtner as well. Let’s hope Sanogo has a good head on his shoulders.

[Chumlum]

Egyptian right-back Ahmed Fathy is apparently really on trial, btw?

[Sponsored content]