Roy Keane claims we have been "brainwashed" into believing the Premier League is Europe's finest

Donuts wrote:and whose fault is it for playing with 10 men?
what a dumb reason, maybe if they played and fouled fairly they wouldn't have that problem.

Are you daft? Who here is claiming both decisions weren't justified?

The argument we're making is that both games weren't indicative of anything. Bayern/Barca just benefited from the man advantage. Which they clearly did.

No one knows how either game would have played out if it stayed 11v11.

I don't think Barca/Bayern would have collapsed like that had they played 10 men. In fact they probably would have played better. The fact that Arsenal/City need 11 men to have a chance to draw or knick a win just shows how far off the top they are.

It's like they are threading a thin line, be careful or we will lose because we can't beat/draw teams with 10 player. What a petty excuse

The PL is the most competitive, balanced and unpredictable league in the world, but the top teams are not as good as the other top teams in other top leagues (Germany and Spain).

Gil wrote:

Are you daft? Who here is claiming both decisions weren't justified?

The argument we're making is that both games weren't indicative of anything. Bayern/Barca just benefited from the man advantage. Which they clearly did.

No one knows how either game would have played out if it stayed 11v11.

both games are indicative of the fact that neither city nor arsenal could keep up with a top european team without making enormous mistakes that they were duly punished for

this excuse is absolutely hilarious... no boss, i didn't lose our company millions by oversleeping, see, nobody knows what would have happened if i hadn't overslept, so it's not like i'm worse than my colleagues

the complete lack of self-awareness in here is astounding

Gil wrote:

Donuts wrote:and whose fault is it for playing with 10 men?
what a dumb reason, maybe if they played and fouled fairly they wouldn't have that problem.

Are you daft? Who here is claiming both decisions weren't justified?

The argument we're making is that both games weren't indicative of anything. Bayern/Barca just benefited from the man advantage. Which they clearly did.

No one knows how either game would have played out if it stayed 11v11.

messi would most likely score his 1v1 and someone as fast as Robben is definitely capable of getting to the ball and finishing it with his preferred left foot into the open goal. Both teams up 1-0.

Of course Dmac quotes me without actually making reference to anything I wrote and instead went on his own tandem.

Sigh. I'm not defending nor chastising the EPL, I reckon this forum has enough of that already. What I am doing is (in my own words) trying separate the heaviness in Keane's judgement to what maybe the reality. And I use the word "maybe" as I'm sure we all have our own versions of "reality". Yes, Man Utd misrepresented the EPL in the same way Juventus misrepresented Serie A, Real Madrid misrepresented La Liga for 7 odd years, Leverkusen with Bundesliga, etc. It doesn't mean the league is crap or in Keane's words, people are brainwashed into thinking it's good, it's simply means (to me) that those aforementioned teams did not do the league's reputation any justice as the quality is still there to be seen (if you want to see it).

Also, it's Man Utd, who doesn't like laughing at their expense?!

Gil wrote:

Forza wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:
Somehow the fact that they were both playing with 10 men seems to skip the minds of people.

Is that some kind of excuse? I think players who get red cards are directly responsible for that. It's not as if either of the red cards was unwarranted. At the beginning of each game, both teams had 11 men. The fact is that Bayern and Barca are 2 of the top candidates for the final this year and proved themselves as superior teams in those games.

Give it a rest. Both games were tied at 0-0 and Bayern/City were both being outplayed at the time.

Beating a team with ten men means nothing.

Wrong. It means your team is better disciplined and that is an advantage in itself. This is not a computer game that you can quit and do a rematch because you don't like how they panned out. Red cards happen and in both of these cases they are the direct result of poorly executed skills by the respective home teams which allowed attackers to get into dangerous positions, followed by poorly executed tackles to warrant the red cards. Also, credit should be given to Munich and Barca for creating those chances.

urbaNRoots wrote:The PL is the most competitive, balanced and unpredictable league in the world, but the top teams are not as good as the other top teams in other top leagues (Germany and Spain).

I don't know if I agree.
I would say one of the major strengths of the Premier League is the number and quality of top teams.
You don't really have something like a top 4 anywhere else. As for the competitiveness and the balance, I don't know. I think the quality of lower and midtable teams in the PL isn't that high as the openness and tactical recklessness with which all ties are played might suggest.

I would agree however that using these latest results to judge league strenghts isn't really compelling.
Arsenal and City came up against Barca and us, but it's not like it was a huge insurmountable difference in those ties.
And Utd, well it's no coincidence they're 6th in the league. I doubt whether Gladbach or San Sebastian would have brushed Olympiakos aside on their home turf, either.

I don't know why people keep saying competitive = entertaining and exciting, when I don't believe its always the case.

Keane here is correct that the EPL is a market tool, not saying the league sucks, or isn't competitive. I just think most English clubs don't play to their strength and when they meet the other elite teams outside of the PL they become very passive and try to defend more then attack be it at home, away or neutral ground. The one thing that benefits them the most is Roman and Sheikh Mansour had it not been for them they wouldn't have most the talent in the league right now and the league table would've been much different. Hell it probably be better for Arsenal and Liverpool right now.

Even if they English teams got eliminated before the next round wouldn't mean they're on a decline or anything.

It's called Mule League for a reason.

EPL has the most money so the league depth is the best. But the elite of the EPL aren't as good as the rest of the top leagues. The top teams in EPL all have clear flaws. You can't say that about Madrid, bayern, barca, etc... Those teams have areas of relative weakness compared to other parts of their team. But they are not weak anywhere.

The closest team in EPL to reach that completeness is Chelsea.... they're only a CF away. But until then, they have a flagrant flaw too.

What he said is 100% true and the replies in this thread prove it. EPL is the most competitive league but definitely doesn't have top teams near the quality found in Germany and Spain.

EPL is the best for every team that plays in it because you know you will get your fair share and you know Buyern will not be knocking on the door for every talent you have.

Any team in La Liga (minus two disgraceful clubs Real and Barcelona) or Bundesliga (minus Buyern) would love to play in EPL

Firenze wrote:

PL when judged as a whole, being the best in the world, is certainly not nonsense.

Surely the best in fans, passion, money, brand, marketing and broadcasting.

The best in team quality... well, that's very much debatable.

Outside of Bayern I doubt there is another team you could put in the league and have them be favourites.

Current form liverpool would blow barcelona apart imo and they aren't even in CL.

The best team in Germany and the two best teams in Spain are better than Premier League's best team(s) right now. PSG might be better as well. But if you take the top-10 teams from every league, I think the Premier League has the most quality.

Not that it really matters what everyone's opinion on the best league is. Just try and enjoy following the league you like the best (where your club plays).

By the way, just a question I feel like putting out there: Two seasons ago the Champions League was won by the team that finished that season 6th in the Premier League. Which other league has that kind of quality that their 6th-placed club might win that season's CL?

Blue Barrett wrote:Nonsense.

I'm pretty sure if Liverpool or even Everton had played this Olympiakos team they would have beaten them handily. Much less City, Chelsea or Arsenal. Please.

Also, what Doc said about Arsenal & City is spot on.

agreed

Art Morte wrote:By the way, just a question I feel like putting out there: Two seasons ago the Champions League was won by the team that finished that season 6th in the Premier League. Which other league has that kind of quality that their 6th-placed club might win that season's CL?

in last 10 years it's 2nd time who happens, as you'll remember well in 2005 and always an EPL club so
yes that's a good point

Art Morte wrote:By the way, just a question I feel like putting out there: Two seasons ago the Champions League was won by the team that finished that season 6th in the Premier League.

that's what happens when you give up on the domestic league because you're severely underachieving and concentrate all effort and resources on the cl... can't afford to do that if you're in a title race

just 3 months ago there was some irony because United destroyed the Leverkusen in Germany
it's all relative, Swansea midtable EPL club stopped the Napoli 3rd Serie A and it deserved widely to win , Juventus was eliminated even from Galatasaray but I don't think we are worse than Greek league ( Aristotle's syllogism:)  or Turkey league

lszanto wrote:Outside of Bayern I doubt there is another team you could put in the league and have them be favourites.

Current form liverpool would blow barcelona apart imo and they aren't even in CL.

Same Liverpool that is way behind Man City?

Robespierre wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:Nonsense.

I'm pretty sure if Liverpool or even Everton had played this Olympiakos team they would have beaten them handily. Much less City, Chelsea or Arsenal. Please.

Also, what Doc said about Arsenal & City is spot on.

agreed

You guys really don't know how tough Olympiakos is at home... check your history and then come back.

halamadrid2 wrote:I don't think Barca/Bayern would have collapsed like that had they played 10 men. In fact they probably would have played better. The fact that Arsenal/City need 11 men to have a chance to draw or knick a win just shows how far off the top they are

Why isn't there a rule in place to stop complete and utter verbal AIDS like this being spewed? You should be banned for such trash. I wish I could eat your hamster in front of you so you too could feel the pain and confusion I felt reading this twoddle

Honestly I see halamadrid's point, if Barça or Buyern played with 10 men against 11, they wouldn't have struggled as much as Arsenal and City did. When Szczesny and Demichelis went off, both games were over from that moment and I don't think it would be the case if the situation was reversed and Neuer/Mascherano were sent off.

Barcelona struggle in La Liga with 11 men, why should we assume they would not only be ok, but be better with 10 men?