Re: Moyes Has destroyed an empire

by Red Alert Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:08 am

Blue Barrett wrote:
1. There is no bloody proof(other than a bunch of journos making up nonsense stories) that the senior players hated AVB. They came out and backed him time and time again. Did they wish he was gone privately? I wouldn't blame them for thinking like that, considering how out of his depth AVB was. But I think I'd prefer to take into account the almost decade(as of that time) of professionalism the players displayed over one bad stretch that had Daily Fail and the likes digging up nonsense mirage stories. You really look at Frank Lampard of all people and think he'd be THAT petty of a human being? Get real.

2. New to the country blah blah blah, the fact still remains that he was out of his depth, incredibly naive and annoyingly stubborn. Refused to change his tactics to suit the players he had(imagine playing an almost center field high line with Terry, Alex & Ivanovic). Refused to adjust his tactics from game to game to suit the opposition(playing that god awful high line against Arsenal was where I lost it). Making the dumbest substitutions in games or not even making any at all when they were needed.

I can go on and on and on but the fact remains that getting rid of AVB when we did was the right decision. We could have given him 3 years and a blank cheque(not saying the funds weren't made available to him, he refused to buy beyond Mata & Meirelles - who was a panic deadline day buy btw)and all he would have done was lead us to more embarrassment and a faster downward spiral.

Ask Spurs how the "time and patience(and money)" thing went for them.

1. The players and the manager never saw eye-to-eye. That may have been AVB being "stubborn" or whatever. It's clear Terry/Lampard were the main figures in the dressing room. Dressing room went to sh*t after Lampard got dropped. And this isn't on the Daily Fail, this is from Alex and his interview with the Telegraph. Tactics or whatnot, AVB was in the FA cup, CL, and fighting for a top 4 spot at the same time as now before he was sacked. Moyes is out of the FA cup, is almost kicked out of the CL, and doesn't even look like he's going to qualify for the Europa league ffs. You can't compare the two.

2. Yeah, let's just take out every factor to try and get your point across, fine. You're still strong. Moyes will fail at United because he's an average manager and ALWAYS HAS BEEN (and ask any Liverpool fan in the last 10 years they'd be saying the same thing). AVB has all the potential in the world to become a top European coach; same can't be said with Moyes. It obviously didn't work for him at Chelsea (and later Spurs) but whatever. He just needs time and patience at the right project (something he didn't get at Spurs so I'm not sure what you're implying).

by Red Alert Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:12 am

McAgger wrote:AVB not given the backing LMAO RedAlert please. the guy under whom 100m was just spent in one summer and he still couldn't get to CL.

I assume you're talking about his time at Spurs then... that has nothing to do with Moyes and AVBs time at Chelsea.

But on Spurs... HE spent 100m, did he? Or did Baldini/Levy spend 100m? It's quite clear that half the players bought weren't AVB signings.
And he was sacked 2 games out of the top 4 with a very winnable fixture list coming up and the players signed in the summer finally looked like they were starting to gel/adapt to England. Keep in mind he had a WHOLE starting XI injury list btw.

by CBarca Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:20 am

I don't want to bring this back up but 100m was spent and he was sacked halfway through the season. You can't say he couldn't get to CL, he was 2 points off fourth, or very close to it. Because Spurs upper management is an absolute joke, he never had the opportunity to finish the season.

Not like Sherwood has done any better.

by Blue Barrett Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:48 am

Red Alert wrote:
Blue Barrett wrote:
1. There is no bloody proof(other than a bunch of journos making up nonsense stories) that the senior players hated AVB. They came out and backed him time and time again. Did they wish he was gone privately? I wouldn't blame them for thinking like that, considering how out of his depth AVB was. But I think I'd prefer to take into account the almost decade(as of that time) of professionalism the players displayed over one bad stretch that had Daily Fail and the likes digging up nonsense mirage stories. You really look at Frank Lampard of all people and think he'd be THAT petty of a human being? Get real.

2. New to the country blah blah blah, the fact still remains that he was out of his depth, incredibly naive and annoyingly stubborn. Refused to change his tactics to suit the players he had(imagine playing an almost center field high line with Terry, Alex & Ivanovic). Refused to adjust his tactics from game to game to suit the opposition(playing that god awful high line against Arsenal was where I lost it). Making the dumbest substitutions in games or not even making any at all when they were needed.

I can go on and on and on but the fact remains that getting rid of AVB when we did was the right decision. We could have given him 3 years and a blank cheque(not saying the funds weren't made available to him, he refused to buy beyond Mata & Meirelles - who was a panic deadline day buy btw)and all he would have done was lead us to more embarrassment and a faster downward spiral.

Ask Spurs how the "time and patience(and money)" thing went for them.

1. The players and the manager never saw eye-to-eye. That may have been AVB being "stubborn" or whatever. It's clear Terry/Lampard were the main figures in the dressing room. Dressing room went to sh*t after Lampard got dropped. And this isn't on the Daily Fail, this is from Alex and his interview with the Telegraph. Tactics or whatnot, AVB was in the FA cup, CL, and fighting for a top 4 spot at the same time as now before he was sacked. Moyes is out of the FA cup, is almost kicked out of the CL, and doesn't even look like he's going to qualify for the Europa league ffs. You can't compare the two.

2. Yeah, let's just take out every factor to try and get your point across, fine. You're still strong. Moyes will fail at United because he's an average manager and ALWAYS HAS BEEN (and ask any Liverpool fan in the last 10 years they'd be saying the same thing). AVB has all the potential in the world to become a top European coach; same can't be said with Moyes. It obviously didn't work for him at Chelsea (and later Spurs) but whatever. He just needs time and patience at the right project (something he didn't get at Spurs so I'm not sure what you're implying).

He told O Jogo: "Andre is not the kind of person who talks a lot, he's someone who is a bit closed. That's just the way he is.
"I saw some comments of Lampard recently and I think he deserved more respect.

"It is true that a player knows he will sometimes have to stay on the bench, especially after reaching a certain age. That's not a problem.
"But with Lampard's history at the club, where he has more than 10 years, he deserves a word or an explanation from the manager.
"Fundamentally, it was a question of respect for everything that he represents for Chelsea."

Alex also questioned claims player power drove Villas-Boas out of the club.
"I think it makes little sense to say that there was a hardcore who did not want Andre to continue," he said.
"If you look carefully, (John) Terry and Ashley Cole always played, (Didier) Drogba and even Fernando (Torres) had lots of opportunities.
"We, the players, often have a habit when things go wrong of blaming the coach.
"But that's not true. Sometimes things don't go well for the team due to little details, like a lack of luck, or poor form from some of us.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/chelsea/9128671/Chelseas-sacked-manager-Andre-Villas-Boas-did-not-respect-Frank-Lampard-says-former-defender-Alex.html

Not once did he mention that the dressing room "went to sh*t" after Lamps got dropped. And the problem wasn't that he was dropped, the problem was that AVB was quite disrespectful in the way he dropped Lamps(perhaps trying to prove to the players that they should look past his young age). Not once did he mention that the players sulked or worked against him or whatever other theory you're running with. A player like Lampard will get upset(of course he's human) but he'll come in and put in the work day in, day out no matter what. He's NOT the kind of player who'll be a cancer to the dressing room.

Just stop with that flimsy theory. Its a myth. Drop it.

Also, AVB isn't better than Moyes. We had lost a lot of games(keep in mind we were top at some point) and were playing worse each week. We were bound to finish right where we eventually finished(6th or maybe even 7th) and no AVB wasn't going to inspire anyone to win the FA Cup, much less the CL. I admire your incredibly weird hypothetical optimism if you think AVB would have achieved anything that season though(be it trophies or top 4). You probably think 2Pac Shakur is still alive somewhere.

by VendettaRed07 Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:29 am

lts not even the results. Results are only part of the equation when you consider how well a manager is doing, how they can build a club, etc.

The problem with AVB and Moyes is the same. All of their teams have looked and played like crap on a consistent basis and showed zero signs of getting any better. Played like crap week after week.

by Blue Barrett Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:28 am

VendettaRed07 wrote:lts not even the results. Results are only part of the equation when you consider how well a manager is doing, how they can build a club, etc.

The problem with AVB and Moyes is the same. All of their teams have looked and played like crap on a consistent basis and showed zero signs of getting any better. Played like crap week after week.

EXACTLY!

Take Rogers, for example, he was given time but I'm very sure if Liverpool had played like shit every week and kept losing needlessly, he would have gotten the boot(much like Hodgson & Dalglish). But his team showed promise and signs of improvement and he was rightly given the support.

by RedOranje Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:52 am

Poor choice in comparisons. Terribly poor choice. The circumstances surrounding Hodgson, in particular, are completely and utterly different from those of the other managers being discussed and even Dalglish's circumstances should not be compared to Rodgers' for a number of reasons. I can understand why you chose those particular examples (in an attempt to frame it in a manner that an LFC fan will empathise with your view on) but you clearly lack the requisite details to speak on the subject.

Hodgson himself brought an entirely incompatible mentality to the club (perhaps comparable to Moyes in this instance, but certainly not Rodgers or Dalglish) and further faced a changing of ownership above him during his short stay.

Dalglish's time was hampered by a struggling DoF and the aftershock of a turbulent period of transition within the club.

Rodgers' situation, from his arrival on, has been entirely different. He was brought in after convincing the owners of his long term plan and he was to be given at least one, if not two, full seasons to show progress toward that regardless of initial struggles. And there WERE initial struggles. Rodgers faced a rather torrid opening couple of months with Liverpool on the pitch with more than a few outside the club predicting his exit... but he received backing and stability from within the club and progress has been seen since.

by free_cat Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:22 am

Olympiakos! :bow:

Unicef on their chest! :bow:

New més que un club!

by Highburied Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:53 am

IN MOYES WE TRUST!

Get a taste Man Utd fans, get a taste, you too.

by Nishankly Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:10 am

Stick with Moyes, He is the one, Surely Fergie can't be wrong?

That said, Im glad United is suffering now, They had their jokes on us for 4-5 years, Time for them to gtfo.

by futbol Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:13 am

Woke up.

Saw Moyesie not sacked.

Day = rescued. :bow:

by Hapless_Hans Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:57 am

lol. these fools will indeed not sack him, but give him another year and the power to 'overhaul' the squad (that he's clearing out by his mere presence).

a gift that keeps on giving Heart

by RED Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:38 am

The biggest Obstacle in sacking Moyes is SAF. SAF's ego is far too big to admit his mate has been an utter disaster and that his choice of appointing Moyes was a terrible one. He's got it in his head that due to Moyes' similar background to his, that they are cut from the same managerial cloth. That Moyes being afforded time would entail a similar outcome to his at United. It's just wishful thinking, for one, Moyes has nowhere near the same credentials as SAF had when he was appointed and United were under different circumstances back then.( we were a bottom half team) that needed major work from the ground up.

For the issue to be really forced (as crazy as that sounds given our current plight) the fans would need to turn on him. I'm talking booing, not attending games..

Or dare I say it, a good old tonking by our 2 fiercest rivals. We play Liverpool on a Saturday, then the following week play City...and sandwiched between these games is our 2nd leg with Olympiakos.

A loss, elimination from the CL and and another loss.....and he will be out. No doubt about it!

And today he is odds on favourite to get the sack by every Bookie. Positive sign.

by Hapless_Hans Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:51 am

RED wrote:
Or dare I say it, a good old tonking by our 2 fiercest rivals. We play Liverpool on a Saturday, then the following week play City...and sandwiched between these games is our 2nd leg with Olympiakos.

A loss, elimination from the CL and and another loss.....and he will be out. No doubt about it!

And today he is odds on favourite to get the sack by every Bookie. Positive sign.

From your mouth to god's ears, yet I hope god doesn't listen!! Moysie needs to stay!!

But yes, pressure is mounting, they now got polls up at the Mirror etc whether he should be sacked, that would've been unthinkable 2 weeks ago.

On the other hand, the 'it's not Moyes fault but the squad needs a 500+ million pounds overhaul' brigade will strike back in the media as well!

by VendettaRed07 Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:02 am

Hopefully Neil Lennon is Moyes' replacement Proud

by RED Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:05 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:
RED wrote:
Or dare I say it, a good old tonking by our 2 fiercest rivals. We play Liverpool on a Saturday, then the following week play City...and sandwiched between these games is our 2nd leg with Olympiakos.

A loss, elimination from the CL and and another loss.....and he will be out. No doubt about it!

And today he is odds on favourite to get the sack by every Bookie. Positive sign.

From your mouth to god's ears, yet I hope god doesn't listen!! Moysie needs to stay!!

But yes, pressure is mounting, they now got polls up at the Mirror etc whether he should be sacked, that would've been unthinkable 2 weeks ago.

On the other hand, the 'it's not Moyes fault but the squad needs a 500+ million pounds overhaul' brigade will strike back in the media as well!

They already have and they always do. It's like some of them are scared to admit Moyes has been a disaster. Failing to see that the team he inherited, despite their shortcomings, actuall won the title last season. They have this loyalty to him from God knows where...

But a few are turning. The media are slowly starting to give it to him..

by farfan Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:42 am

CBarca wrote:I don't want to bring this back up but 100m was spent and he was sacked halfway through the season. You can't say he couldn't get to CL, he was 2 points off fourth, or very close to it. Because Spurs upper management is an absolute joke, he never had the opportunity to finish the season.

Not like Sherwood has done any better.

spurs were 7th when fraudas was sacked. they're 5th right now.
they're playing considerably better under sherwood, scoring more and conceding less too .

spurs finished 5th last year and spent 100 million in the mercato , only to find themselves perfomring worse thant the previous season and getting further away from their top 4 objective . humiliating losses to top 4 four teams made the gap even bigger, and the tactical naivité ,stubbornness and horrible man management displayed by fraudas-flopas were a key factor to his deserved dismissal .

by Firenze Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:18 pm

farfan wrote:

spurs were 7th when fraudas was sacked. they're 5th right now.

Spurs were only 5 points off fourth when AVB was sacked, they're currently 6 points off hmm

by Lord Spencer Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:52 pm

Firenze wrote:
farfan wrote:

spurs were 7th when fraudas was sacked. they're 5th right now.

Spurs were only 5 points off fourth when AVB was sacked, they're currently 6 points off

Yes, but they are in a better position in the league as well. It is only natural for all leads to stretch was the season goes on. If anything, it is actually commendable that they are only 6 points away from an impossible fourth spot.

by BarcaLearning Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:54 pm

WOOO HOOOO, lets all celebrate, all the Man U haters! banana

Have been waiting for this for soooo long Cool

by M99 Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:56 pm

Milan would beat Man Utd, I can say it with confidence. Never did I dream that Moyes would screw up so bad.

by BarcaLearning Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:59 pm

Tbf though, Moyes surely isnt that bad a manager. He did so well with a lesser team in Everton and have them consistently about 5-6th, thats quite an achievement, and a lot of ppl rated him b4 he managed Man U.

I guess Man U manager is another one of those near impossible jobs that just takes a top top top manager in order to successfully manage... or at least suitable. Moyes seems simply a mismatch to manage Man U.

by Lord Spencer Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:04 pm

BarcaLearning wrote:Tbf though, Moyes surely isnt that bad a manager. He did so well with a lesser team in Everton and have them consistently about 5-6th, thats quite an achievement, and a lot of ppl rated him b4 he managed Man U.

I guess Man U manager is another one of those near impossible jobs that just takes a top top top manager in order to successfully manage... or at least suitable. Moyes seems simply a mismatch to manage Man U.

Everton are actually in a better shape now than they were with him rofl

by BarcaLearning Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:16 pm

urbaNRoots wrote:Dutch Football ‏@football_oranje
Van Persie, "My teammates are in some of the areas where I want to play. This makes it difficult for me." (NOS)

Van Persie "Then I have to change my tactics to suit my teammates, and play outside my zone. That's a pity

Who is he talking about, Rooney?

Omg....obviously complaining about the tactics. Moyes has lost the players, thats for sure. Wonder why Fergie arent interfering, I thought he would if things are this cr4p.

by eelir Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:48 pm

I am sorry if this has been posted!

Man U fan tatoo Very Happy

http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/26/manchester-united-fan-demands-david-moyes-sacking-by-getting-moyes-out-tattoo-4323851/

Spoiler:

by Motogp69 Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:34 pm

Moyes is bad, but Fergie started destroying your "empire" long before Moyes was even hired.

You give Moyes Everton level players and are surprised United are where Everton would normally be on the table. Shocked :facepalm:

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