Chumlum wrote:OK, I shouldn't have opened my big mouth. Man City have really sacked up here, it seems.

  

Turning around a game where they were already down by 2-0 after the first 15 minutes without their 2 best players, away from home and against the best team in the world.

Ex footballers constantly criticize teams and players who are playing now just to make their careers seem all that much better in comparison. When they can't play anymore, dissing the present and praising the past is all they really can do in order to appease their ego.

Despite having a good presence of leadership within their ranks, Roma remains in the same boat as Arsenal. We're considered a big club, play good football and yet have very little to show for that. I tend to agree that until a club wins a title, the criticism that has been levelled Arsenal's way will continue, regardless of whether it's unfounded or not.

As for Viera's comments. I don't think I agree with him. Arsenal have done very well so far without a clear, visible leader so it's not as much an absolute necessity as he's trying to make it out to be. I like to think that's down to teamwork and togetherness. These guys are getting results for each other and shows in their play. That trumps leadership for me. Let's revisit this debate if/when Arsenal begin to lose form. Until then, they should shown more respect for the result's they've come up with thus far.

McLewis wrote:Despite having a good presence of leadership within their ranks, Roma remains in the same boat as Arsenal. We're considered a big club, play good football and yet have very little to show for that.

I hope this is not misconstrued as a troll, but what kind of big club only has 3 league titles? While this is very subjective, I don't think Roma have quite earned that 'big club' title.

Just watching Keane and Vieira thing on ITV now where the quote is from.

The quotes have been misinterpreted.... he was asked why Arsenal haven't won a trophy since he lifted the FA Cup in 2005 and gave those answers.

He's probably right in that case and while i think this current team has more leaders than at any time during those 8 years its hard to argue that in between this year and 2005 Arsenal have lacked leadership.

These quotes are from the Vieira and Keane documentary.

Vieira wasn't really talking about this season, the question he was  asked was along the lines of why Arsenal has remained trophyless since the FA cup win.

EDIT: Mole beat me to it

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:He's probably right in that case and while i think this current team has more leaders than at any time during those 8 years its hard to argue that in between this year and 2005 Arsenal have lacked leadership.

Wenger's strategy of "Make someone captain so they won't leave the team" was both detrimental and backfired often.

Lex wrote:

Red Alert wrote:Very hard to see a leader in this Arsenal squad right now. Maybe Flamini? But no, he's not really captain material

Don't think I understand this comment? A leader and a captain are two different things. Anyone can technically be the captain, not everyone is a leader. Flamini has been great at organizing the team and issuing instructions this season. Everytime the camera is on him, he's always talking to someone, telling them where to go and what formation to set-up etc

Vieira is just talking out of his blowhole

A captain has and always should be the most influential player on the squad list. Maybe not at Arsenal, but everywhere else. RvP, Cesc and Vermaelen now aren't leaders. Like BC said above, making people captain so they won't leave the team was the worst decision he could do.

Flamini won't carry Arsenal on his own post January, and he's definitely not a leader. He has the experience yes, but they're two different things.

Vieira isn't wrong here hence why majority of everyone in this thread agrees with him, the only people that don't are Arsenal fans. And he's not talking about needing leaders now, he's talking about leaders stepping up in the closing run of the league when they drop points and City / Chelsea close in on you guys. Who's honestly going to step up in your squad and carry you guys then? That's what Vieira means. You guys haven't had a decent captain since his days.

El Gunner wrote:
No they don't!
Maybe Toure to some extend, but beyond that they don't have many "leaders"

Aguero was in the leadership group at Ath. Madrid.
Zabaleta is a great captain that I forgot to mention, too.
Man City have leaders in their side...

If you ask Viera did this as part of mind games before the gunners' trip to etihad, then honestly yes. Anybody who watches EPL can say that.
And if you ask whether he is right, Its yes again. apart from Koscielny and Mertesacker who are the 'closest' to be having some leadership qualities, there are simply none to be seen. Saw someone mentioning sagna as a leader.
All other clubs who are challenging for top honours in EPL on the other hand have 3 or four guys who can easily lead them and take control of the engine room under crisis.
yea majority agrees here, only arsenal fans are saying otherwise.
  

Lumiere_Blanche wrote:All other clubs who are challenging for top honours in EPL on the other hand have 3 or four guys who can easily lead them and take control of the engine room under crisis

Yes, we clearly saw those born leaders rise up and take control recently when City drew with Southampton, Chelsea lost to Stoke and United lost to Newcastle All those leaders, not one could do diddly squat in "times of crisis"

Pls exit stage left

What this is is an attempt to find something about the most in form team at the moment to criticize, so it's no surprise everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. It used to be that Arsenal had no English talent. When that myth got busted, the next fad critique was that Arsenal were a one man team with Henry, then Bergkamp, then Fabregas, then RVP. Once again, when that myth got bombed, the next one up was that we were afraid to get stuck in and lacked physical prowess. A few signings later and it's now come to "Arsenal are leaderless" Once that little tidbit is nipped in the bud, I wonder what the next reason to criticize Arsenal will be

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

McLewis wrote:Despite having a good presence of leadership within their ranks, Roma remains in the same boat as Arsenal. We're considered a big club, play good football and yet have very little to show for that.

I hope this is not misconstrued as a troll, but what kind of big club only has 3 league titles? While this is very subjective, I don't think Roma have quite earned that 'big club' title.

My personal opinion on that is that I agree with you if we're looking at this purely from the perspective of titles won. However, Roma still remain one of Italy's big clubs according to pundits, players, coaches etc. Their fanbase has steadily grown for the past decade and has expanded to markets they've previously not been able to break into (US, Asia, South Pacific, Middle East etc) They are not considered elite and rightfully so, but they do hold a measure of respect among other clubs and players for the talent that comes into the club, for the players it develops, for the culture and philosophy the club follows and for the type of football played. Has any of that generated a mass of titles? Not really. And that's why Roma are just a step below elite-level. Winning a title this season would go a long way towards making that step up. The groundwork is being laid everywhere else.

And you should know by now that I very rarely (If ever) troll.

Roma is the Arsenal of Serie A... that has been a very common view among footy fans for a while now. Not quite as good as Arsenal because Roma missed some CL competitions. But Roma typically play good football, have very good players... but fall just short of trophies for one reason or another.

That said, Roma has Totti and De Rossi. They can't blame the lack of succes for lack of veteran leadership "who's been there". They were both part of the WC winning squad in 2006, where Totti was a starter and De Rossi was one of the top subs.

vieira is right but.. i dont see the character in them to play 2 games a week and grind it out.
thats why when people were laughing at utd for potentially going 15 pts behind i wasnt worried, were only 7 behind our real competition in man city.
ramesy is covering their lack of goals from other areas, hell have to play every game and score 30 plus goals, which is never happening

Lex wrote:What this is is an attempt to find something about the most in form team at the moment to criticize, so it's no surprise everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. It used to be that Arsenal had no English talent. When that myth got busted, the next fad critique was that Arsenal were a one man team with Henry, then Bergkamp, then Fabregas, then RVP. Once again, when that myth got bombed, the next one up was that we were afraid to get stuck in and lacked physical prowess. A few signings later and it's now come to "Arsenal are leaderless" :roll:Once that little tidbit is nipped in the bud, I wonder what the next reason to criticize Arsenal will be

the one man team myth was bombed? afraid to get stuck in was bombed? how was this proved exactly?

Lex wrote:

Lumiere_Blanche wrote:All other clubs who are challenging for top honours in EPL on the other hand have 3 or four guys who can easily lead them and take control of the engine room under crisis

Yes, we clearly saw those born leaders rise up and take control recently when City drew with Southampton, Chelsea lost to Stoke and United lost to Newcastle :lol:All those leaders, not one could do diddly squat in "times of crisis"

Pls exit stage left

Everybody following this thread from the beginning except yourself here know what I was implying there with 'crisis'. May be I should have swapped the word with 'pressure'.
Hence not replying.

Have a nice day.

losing 1 game isnt a crisis, going 8 years without a single honour is.

cyberman wrote:losing 1 game isnt a crisis, going 8 years without a single honour is.

This ^
thanks man

Nobody gives any credit to Arteta. He's always sacrificing himself for the team, taking responsibility (taking penalties and fouling when needed for example), telling players where to be and what to do, and when he was injured he would show up to every game early and motivate the guys in the dressing room. He might only be vice captain in theory, but Arteta is definitely a leader. Perhaps even more-so than Vermaelen.

Mertesacker has also developed quite well as a personality in the team and is always motivating people and shouting now. I don't think we've had such togetherness and passionate players for a long time, so I don't see leadership being a problem at all anymore.

Agreed on Arteta, who has indeed been vastly overlooked.

As for Vermaelen. He's definitely a leader, he's just not a good footballer at the moment. That's his problem. He's shown that he can be much better than what he is now, but what good is a captain that can't lead with his feet as well as with his voice?

How about being 13 points off the top, does that count as a crisis?

What about reducing Old Trafford to a Soho back alley, where teams come, score and then leave?

Yes, we haven't won a title in 7 months, the sink is shipping.
Actually comparing the 2 expectations of the clubs.. Those Barron spells are about proportionate..

cyberman wrote:vieira is right but.. i dont see the character in them to play 2 games a week and grind it out.
thats why when people were laughing at utd for potentially going 15 pts behind i wasnt worried, were only 7 behind our real competition in man city.
ramesy is covering their lack of goals from other areas, hell have to play every game and score 30 plus goals, which is never happening

You mean exactly like we've been doing all season. Bad troll is a bad troll.

cyberman wrote:Yes, we haven't won a title in 7 months, the sink is shipping

Yep, slowly reaching the murky depths of relegation and Phil Jones' locker, glad you can accept those facts

cyberman wrote:Actually comparing the 2 expectations of the clubs..

Indeed. We're fighting to win the league, you're fighting to stay in the top half of the table on MOTD