The reason for the decline

I have witnessed, first-hand, both the great Juventus sides, as well as the debacles; this current is very reminiscent of both the 1990 and 2009 sides, for some very different reasons. The side is very lethargic, and part of the responsibility lies with Conte; he refuses to properly rotate the squad, meaning the players have no fears regarding potentially losing their place. I find it a shock that Vucinic, Pirlo, Bonucci, Isla, and especially Buffon have kept their places, regardless of the horror-show-displays we have all witnesses.

Buffon and Pirlo have overstayed their welcome; I remember the Buffon of 2001-2008, 2011, where he was almost an impenetrable wall in the goal, pulling off miraculous saves, coming out and challenging a shooter, commanding his area and being the leader we have come to know. I do not know the board's feelings concerning Storari, but I have held him in high esteem; he is not the greatest GK, but he makes some great saves, gets his angles and position correct, and never complains, I think he has earned a extended run in the side.

Pirlo has simply gone downhill.......FAST, he is completely overrun in midfield, is useless in games when he is man-marked, can't tackle, and is lazy; I pray his contract is not extended, as players like Grenier, Xabi Alonso, and Nainggolan are surely worth a look. It has reached a point where, he and Buffon are almost a detriment to the side, not a benefit

The summer budget was incorrectly spent, as we could have sold players like Vucinic, Isla, and Padoin, using the cash to make a play for a LWB (Fabio Coentrao), and a CM (Nainggolan), thus giving the squad both balance and depth at every position. Marotta waited too long to move on Radja, as evidenced by Cellino"s comment "a deal could have been done with Juve, had Marotta approached us earlier", straight up incompetence by Marotta.

The 3-5-2 has been found out; all teams have to do is "park the bus" and exploit our LWB hole on the counter attack. The squad is built to play a 4-2-1-3, but it seems Conte's stubbornness will cost Juve in the CL again this year.

Juve scouts are waiting to long to pull the trigger on deals concerning youngsters; they wait until they burst onto the scene, driving up their price tag. Players like Ananidze, Griezmann, Grenier, Depay etc. can all be picked up for peanuts, currently, and will most-likely explode in 2-3 years

Ananidze finally someone except me sees that talented kid

dude are u crazy? the only one i would consider selling was vucinic in terms of hunger, other than that....Buffon and Pirlo to leave?? give me the number of ur dealer man wanna toke that good weed u smokin lolololol

Juvellinapoli wrote:I have witnessed, first-hand, both the great Juventus sides, as well as the debacles; this current is very reminiscent of both the 1990 and 2009 sides, for some very different reasons. The side is very lethargic, and part of the responsibility lies with Conte; he refuses to properly rotate the squad, meaning the players have no fears regarding potentially losing their place. I find it a shock that Vucinic, Pirlo, Bonucci, Isla, and especially Buffon have kept their places, regardless of the horror-show-displays we have all witnesses.

Buffon and Pirlo have overstayed their welcome; I remember the Buffon of 2001-2008, 2011, where he was almost an impenetrable wall in the goal, pulling off  miraculous saves, coming out and challenging a shooter, commanding his area and being the leader we have come to know. I do not know the board's feelings concerning Storari, but I have held him in high esteem; he is not the greatest GK, but he makes some great saves, gets his angles and position correct, and never complains, I think he has earned a extended run in the side.

Pirlo has simply gone downhill.......FAST, he is completely overrun in midfield, is useless in games when he is man-marked, can't tackle, and is lazy; I pray his contract is not extended, as players like Grenier, Xabi Alonso, and Nainggolan are surely worth a look. It has reached a point where, he and Buffon are almost a detriment to the side, not a benefit

The summer budget was incorrectly spent, as we could have sold players like Vucinic, Isla, and Padoin, using the cash to make a play for a LWB (Fabio Coentrao), and a CM (Nainggolan), thus giving the squad both balance and depth at every position. Marotta waited too long to move on Radja, as evidenced by Cellino"s comment "a deal could have been done with Juve, had Marotta approached us earlier", straight up incompetence by Marotta.

The 3-5-2 has been found out; all teams have to do is "park the bus" and exploit our LWB hole on the counter attack. The squad is built to play a 4-2-1-3, but it seems Conte's stubbornness will cost Juve in the CL again this year.

Juve scouts are waiting to long to pull the trigger on deals concerning youngsters; they wait until they burst onto the scene, driving up their price tag. Players like Ananidze, Griezmann, Grenier, Depay etc. can all be picked up for peanuts, currently, and will most-likely explode in 2-3 years  

STOP POSTING WHEN YOUR DRUNK....Pirlo is easily our most IMPORTANT player. hesjust 34 years old and has been playin competitive football on stop for 3 years. he is often the player who recovers the most balls for us, and without him we look LOST. Maybe if Conte would rest him more hed look better, but if he did thathis "tactics" wouldn't work. he maybe a great motivator, but hes lacking. the VAST majority of the goals buffon lets in are off deflections or due to poor defenders positioning or some stupid ass mistake (i.e. that incredulous back pass from chiellini that led to the icardi goal). keepers are actually pretty helpless in front of goal without their defenders, which is why its so important for them to be able to communicate and organize the defense. Chiellini, Bonnucci, and ogbonna have been making bonehead mistakes lately, only ogbonna has an excuse because hes learning a new system, and Barzagli is showin his age a bit, all this affects the keeper.

Naingolan is as overrated as they come, hes solid all around, but nothing special, and nothing we already dont have in bunches. I agree we should've sold Vucinic,ut only if we had a comparable replacement, which we dontS.

THIS ALL MARROTTAS FAULT HE DIDNT WANT TO PAY FOR VAN PERSIE, HE DIDNT WANT TO PAY FOR JOVETIC, THE ONLY KILLERS WE HAVE UP FRONT ARE TEVEZ AND QUAGLIARELLA (which our fearless leader refuses to play for whatever reason). IF WE CONVERT ON EVEN A FRACTION OF THE CHANCES WE CREATE (better put the chances that that has-been, nothing Pirlo creates for us), NOT ONLY WOULD WE BE ELITE ON THE SCORING END, BUT WE WOULDNT ALLOW ALL THESE COUNTER ATTACKING GOALS THAT KEEP SENDING US HOME WITH 1 POINT.

FilthyLuca wrote:

Juvellinapoli wrote:I have witnessed, first-hand, both the great Juventus sides, as well as the debacles; this current is very reminiscent of both the 1990 and 2009 sides, for some very different reasons. The side is very lethargic, and part of the responsibility lies with Conte; he refuses to properly rotate the squad, meaning the players have no fears regarding potentially losing their place. I find it a shock that Vucinic, Pirlo, Bonucci, Isla, and especially Buffon have kept their places, regardless of the horror-show-displays we have all witnesses.

Buffon and Pirlo have overstayed their welcome; I remember the Buffon of 2001-2008, 2011, where he was almost an impenetrable wall in the goal, pulling off  miraculous saves, coming out and challenging a shooter, commanding his area and being the leader we have come to know. I do not know the board's feelings concerning Storari, but I have held him in high esteem; he is not the greatest GK, but he makes some great saves, gets his angles and position correct, and never complains, I think he has earned a extended run in the side.

Pirlo has simply gone downhill.......FAST, he is completely overrun in midfield, is useless in games when he is man-marked, can't tackle, and is lazy; I pray his contract is not extended, as players like Grenier, Xabi Alonso, and Nainggolan are surely worth a look. It has reached a point where, he and Buffon are almost a detriment to the side, not a benefit

The summer budget was incorrectly spent, as we could have sold players like Vucinic, Isla, and Padoin, using the cash to make a play for a LWB (Fabio Coentrao), and a CM (Nainggolan), thus giving the squad both balance and depth at every position. Marotta waited too long to move on Radja, as evidenced by Cellino"s comment "a deal could have been done with Juve, had Marotta approached us earlier", straight up incompetence by Marotta.

The 3-5-2 has been found out; all teams have to do is "park the bus" and exploit our LWB hole on the counter attack. The squad is built to play a 4-2-1-3, but it seems Conte's stubbornness will cost Juve in the CL again this year.

Juve scouts are waiting to long to pull the trigger on deals concerning youngsters; they wait until they burst onto the scene, driving up their price tag. Players like Ananidze, Griezmann, Grenier, Depay etc. can all be picked up for peanuts, currently, and will most-likely explode in 2-3 years  

STOP POSTING WHEN YOUR DRUNK....Pirlo is easily our most IMPORTANT player. hesjust 34 years old and has been playin competitive football on stop for 3 years.  he is often the player who recovers the most balls for us, and without him we look LOST. Maybe if Conte would rest him more hed look better, but if he did thathis "tactics" wouldn't work. he maybe a great motivator, but hes lacking.  the VAST majority of the goals buffon lets in are off deflections or due to poor defenders positioning or some stupid ass mistake (i.e. that incredulous back pass from chiellini that led to the icardi goal).  keepers are actually pretty helpless in front of goal without their defenders, which is why its so important for them to be able to communicate and organize the defense.  Chiellini, Bonnucci, and ogbonna have been making bonehead mistakes lately, only ogbonna has an excuse because hes learning a new system, and Barzagli is showin his age a bit, all this affects the keeper.

Naingolan is as overrated as they come, hes solid all around, but nothing special, and nothing we already dont have in bunches.  I agree we should've sold Vucinic,ut only if we had a comparable replacement, which we dontS.

THIS ALL MARROTTAS FAULT HE DIDNT WANT TO PAY FOR VAN PERSIE, HE DIDNT WANT TO PAY FOR JOVETIC, THE ONLY KILLERS WE HAVE UP FRONT ARE TEVEZ AND QUAGLIARELLA (which our fearless leader refuses to play for whatever reason). IF WE CONVERT ON EVEN A FRACTION OF THE CHANCES WE CREATE (better put the chances that that has-been, nothing Pirlo creates for us), NOT ONLY WOULD WE BE ELITE ON THE SCORING END, BUT WE WOULDNT ALLOW ALL THESE COUNTER ATTACKING GOALS THAT KEEP SENDING US HOME WITH 1 POINT.

Buffon has made countless mistakes; he was beaten by Muntari short side, the lol-worthy attempt at tackling Drogba, not to mention the fact he has become as effective as Massimo Taibi at rebound control. Deflections, eh?? That was a valid reason for the majority of goals last season, as deflections occurred in abundance, not this season.

You have seen it, right? The way Pirlo has been nullified in games by faster midfielders, or when he's man-marked. He and Buffon should just leave, for real.

Nainggolan overrated?? hahaha........comedy gold

Pirlo had his first decent match this season against Milan, but if you watched closely he had like 0 key passes, lost possession multiple times (never seen this a few months ago) and is getting a lot slower than he is used to be. He easily saved the match with 2 amazing free kicks though. So I agree with the OP on this (not surprising Marotta & Co are delaying his extension)

His replacement will be really tough if he leaves.

And only blind people can't see that Buffon IS mistake-prone this year. This is coming from someone who has been a fan of him for about 13 years. But I dont think either of them is to blame for our poorer form.

calm down guys no need for insults

i agree with everything luca said

While I agree that Buffon is slowing down and that we need to start preparing a replacement like Leali in the next 2-3 year, Storari is no way better. He is a great backup keeper but not nearly good enough for a starting spot.

You don't just change formations at this point in the season. Our players are designed for this formation. We should talk more on positioning and tactics than switching formations. The formation we use is pointless if our tactics and positioning isn't right. That's where our focus should be. Great managers don't change their formations when they hit a snag. They adjust their tactics and player positioning.

Juventude wrote:You don't just change formations at this point in the season. Our players are designed for this formation. We should talk more on positioning and tactics than switching formations. The formation we use is pointless if our tactics and positioning isn't right. That's where our focus should be. Great managers don't change their formations when they hit a snag. They adjust their tactics and player positioning.

what the man said

Juventude wrote:You don't just change formations at this point in the season. Our players are designed for this formation. We should talk more on positioning and tactics than switching formations. The formation we use is pointless if our tactics and positioning isn't right. That's where our focus should be. Great managers don't change their formations when they hit a snag. They adjust their tactics and player positioning.

I understand what you are saying, but when the players don't suit a particular formation, and its been found out and exploited, its the exception not the rule. The 3-5-2 would work if it were altered;

--------Barzagli-Chiellini-Ogbonna---------
-----------------Vidal--------------------
-Lichtsteiner-Marchisio-Pogba-F Coentrao--
-------------Tevez-Llorente---------------

Juvellinapoli wrote:

Juventude wrote:You don't just change formations at this point in the season. Our players are designed for this formation. We should talk more on positioning and tactics than switching formations. The formation we use is pointless if our tactics and positioning isn't right. That's where our focus should be. Great managers don't change their formations when they hit a snag. They adjust their tactics and player positioning.

I understand what you are saying, but when the players don't suit a particular formation, and its been found out and exploited, its the exception not the rule.  The 3-5-2 would work if it were altered;

--------Barzagli-Chiellini-Ogbonna---------
-----------------Vidal--------------------
-Lichtsteiner-Marchisio-Pogba-F Coentrao--
-------------Tevez-Llorente---------------

the players suit this formation perfectly, the thing is we need new strategy and concept a little change in the play nothing more, I would start with testing midfield without pirlo and hassling opponents all over the field pressing the hell out of them with a midfield consisting of ---Marchisio---Pogba----Vidal--- those guys can run and cover all areas on the field ....

P.S. I am against changing formation but I find this to sexy 4-4-2 diamond
  ------------------Buffon----------------
----Licht----Barzagli----Chiellini---Ogbonna--
-------------------Marchisio------
-----------Pogba-----------Vidal---
-------------------Giovinco----
----------Tevez-------------Vucinic---

Juvellinapoli wrote:

Juventude wrote:You don't just change formations at this point in the season. Our players are designed for this formation. We should talk more on positioning and tactics than switching formations. The formation we use is pointless if our tactics and positioning isn't right. That's where our focus should be. Great managers don't change their formations when they hit a snag. They adjust their tactics and player positioning.

I understand what you are saying, but when the players don't suit a particular formation, and its been found out and exploited, its the exception not the rule.  The 3-5-2 would work if it were altered;

--------Barzagli-Chiellini-Ogbonna---------
-----------------Vidal--------------------
-Lichtsteiner-Marchisio-Pogba-F Coentrao--
-------------Tevez-Llorente---------------

If you move Vidal back to a deep-lying role, you're going to lose a lot of his offensive output. Additionally, he is not a deep lying playmaker. There will be no long passes coming from Vidal in the back. What you will get is more of a classic CDM, like an Emerson. So, I would actually expect a more defensive team with your proposed lineup, especially with a 3 three man back line and two fullbacks on the wings. Vidal would not be able to advance the ball the same as Pirlo.

Additionally, I would play Pogba in the RCM spot, not LCM. He plays much better from the right, as demonstrated by being less effective in Marchisio's spot the past few weeks than he is when he fills in for Vidal.

I agree that the 3-5-2 would be much better with a classic LWB instead of Asamoah, but Asamoah is the best we have for now. And we should not go to any formation that requires a LW, such as a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 because we really lack a leftsided attacking player.

If we had a natural LWB and continued to use Pirlo as a regista or find a vice for him, I think we'll be fine. But right now, this is the best formation for the players we have available.

If we want to consider any formation change, it would have to be a basic change to something like a 4-4-2. However, in that situation, we will still have to use Licht at RB and we would have to use a player like Peluso at LB because Asamoah cannot play that deep and Chiellini just doesn't work. Then Asamoah would play as a LW and I'm not sure who at RW, maybe unreliable players like Isla or Pepe (but we know Isla has sucked (maybe he'd be better as a pure RM/RW) and Pepe is always injured). However, under the 4-4-2, that also means you're benching one of our current CBs and two of either Pirlo, Vidal, Marchisio, and Pogba.

So, when you look at the reality of the situation, we're doing the best we can with our current personnel. That's why I think Juve really needs to consider selling one of its CMs and upgrading on the wings and/or LB.

That's a really long post just to say, I don't think we can change formations right now. You can't play guys out of position. So, we need to concentrate on positioning and tactics within our current formation with our current players.

THIS IS ALL MOOT....all this talk of tactics is a waste and is irrelevant if we actually put the ball in the back of the net. we're keeping the opposition in the game and opening ourselves up for counters, which is all most teams can do to us.

Therefore, this is ALL Marrottas fault for nickel and dimeing the transfer market. stop crying poverty when you know goddamn well you have the money. you don't miss out on Van Persie over 5 million euros when you've already agreed to personal terms with him. Jovetic was the same thing, we lost out on him over a couple million. then you go and spend 15 million on someone who will potentially be a world class CB, with the excuse that we need depth, 15 MILLION,like there aren't other solid backups out there for MUCH cheaper (yes that's all Ogbonna is to us right now, a backup, and a very lost backup at that). the need for a talisman upfront infinitely outweighed our need for a back up CB. very disappointing decision if you ask me.

 I think the reason for Juve decline is lack of creativity in the midfield and i agree with OP about Left back . Pirlo cant be the only creative player in the team if you want to compete in Serie A ,CoI and CL .As till now he wasn't really himself for Juve and for me buying a potential replacement in near future is what Juve should do .

IL Gladiatore wrote: I think the reason for Juve decline is lack of creativity in the midfield and i agree with OP about Left back . Pirlo cant be the only creative player in the team if you want to compete in Serie A ,CoI and CL .As till now he wasn't really himself for Juve and for me buying a potential replacement in near future is what Juve should do .

They are fine in Serie A. They have dropped two points in total. I don't think creativity is an issue. I think the goals we are conceding are more troublesome. Too many players are moving into attack and not tracking back quickly enough in my opinion. It's hardly time to panic in terms of Serie A. I'm more worried about UCL.

Juventude wrote:

Juvellinapoli wrote:

Juventude wrote:You don't just change formations at this point in the season. Our players are designed for this formation. We should talk more on positioning and tactics than switching formations. The formation we use is pointless if our tactics and positioning isn't right. That's where our focus should be. Great managers don't change their formations when they hit a snag. They adjust their tactics and player positioning.

I understand what you are saying, but when the players don't suit a particular formation, and its been found out and exploited, its the exception not the rule.  The 3-5-2 would work if it were altered;

--------Barzagli-Chiellini-Ogbonna---------
-----------------Vidal--------------------
-Lichtsteiner-Marchisio-Pogba-F Coentrao--
-------------Tevez-Llorente---------------

If you move Vidal back to a deep-lying role, you're going to lose a lot of his offensive output.  Additionally, he is not a deep lying playmaker.  There will be no long passes coming from Vidal in the back.  What you will get is more of a classic CDM, like an Emerson.  So, I would actually expect a more defensive team with your proposed lineup, especially with a 3 three man back line and two fullbacks on the wings.  Vidal would not be able to advance the ball the same as Pirlo.  

Additionally, I would play Pogba in the RCM spot, not LCM.  He plays much better from the right, as demonstrated by being less effective in Marchisio's spot the past few weeks than he is when he fills in for Vidal.  

I agree that the 3-5-2 would be much better with a classic LWB instead of Asamoah, but Asamoah is the best we have for now.  And we should not go to any formation that requires a LW, such as a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 because we really lack a leftsided attacking player.

If we had a natural LWB and continued to use Pirlo as a regista or find a vice for him, I think we'll be fine.  But right now, this is the best formation for the players we have available.  

If we want to consider any formation change, it would have to be a basic change to something like a 4-4-2.  However, in that situation, we will still have to use Licht at RB and we would have to use a player like Peluso at LB because Asamoah cannot play that deep and Chiellini just doesn't work.  Then Asamoah would play as a LW and I'm not sure who at RW, maybe unreliable players like Isla or Pepe (but we know Isla has sucked (maybe he'd be better as a pure RM/RW) and Pepe is always injured).  However, under the 4-4-2, that also means you're benching one of our current CBs and two of either Pirlo, Vidal, Marchisio, and Pogba.  

So, when you look at the reality of the situation, we're doing the best we can with our current personnel.  That's why I think Juve really needs to consider selling one of its CMs and upgrading on the wings and/or LB.  

That's a really long post just to say, I don't think we can change formations right now.  You can't play guys out of position.  So, we need to concentrate on positioning and tactics within our current formation with our current players.  

---------Barzagli-Chiellini-Ogbonna----------
-------------------Pogba-----------------------
---Lichtsteiner-Vidal-Marchisio-F Coentrao---
-----------------Tevez-Llorente-----------------