we've got a good team but this isn't even better than our 06 team

Valkyrja wrote:

Donuts wrote:I don't understand how people can say Argentina has a good team.. Has anyone seen their defense? A bunch of no names, meh midfield and above average attack force which can't even be used all at once.

Higuain, Aguero, Di Maria, Lamela, Lavezzi, Tevez are above average ? They are all great players.

Like I said above average and more then half of those will sit in bench not even to help the team.
The only reason people say Argentina have a chance is because they have 10 amazing forwards and the formation only allows 4 of them at max to play. Hardly an advantage when you look at their defense and midfield.

I'd take a much more balanced team like Brazil to have a higher chance at winning the WC despite not having an amazing forwards but a more balanced approach.

FFS , that's his nation and winning world cup is something that he can do for his people that's why Winning world cup is the dream for every player , the rest is just individual success .

Albiceleste wrote:we've got a good team but this isn't even better than our 06 team

Spain, Brazil, Germany, Argentina and maybe Italy are the only real contenders.

Rebaño Sagrado wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:we've got a good team but this isn't even better than our 06 team

Spain, Brazil, Germany, Argentina and maybe Italy are the only real contenders.

true but it still doesnt make our team better than our 06 team. there was way more competition back then and we were the best team there

SMH...Well shouldnt the fact that the WC is weak mean that Messi should be winning it?
Anyway, he is already the Goat imv. as for his comfort zone, that should not affect his legacy at all.
The WC is still the biggest stage though, and if he doesnt win it, he will be know as the biggest international choker ever (if he's not already), but this will just be a Lebron/MJ case: regardless of whether Lebron wins as many 'ships or not, he will eventually be the Goat,

Albiceleste wrote:

Rebaño Sagrado wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:we've got a good team but this isn't even better than our 06 team

Spain, Brazil, Germany, Argentina and maybe Italy are the only real contenders.

true but it still doesnt make our team better than our 06 team. there was way more competition back then and we were the best team there

Argentina were by no means the best team in 2006, that Brazil team was unplayable at their best

mzamani wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:

Rebaño Sagrado wrote:Spain, Brazil, Germany, Argentina and maybe Italy are the only real contenders.

true but it still doesnt make our team better than our 06 team. there was way more competition back then and we were the best team there

Argentina were by no means the best team in 2006, that Brazil team was unplayable at their best

we were favorites and played the best football

wouldve won had pekerman not subbed riquelme

I don't know how people say that Messi has done NOTHING w/ Argentina. He's yet to win a trophy other than an olympic medal but he's well on his way to becoming the country's top scorer ever. I know it's not as good but it'll be an accomplishment once he can do it.

Also, I agree that the World Cup is top in terms of prestige compared to the CL but it definitely isn't equal in terms of quality, especially toward the last 16. Mzamani makes a point, if it's so easy, why hasn't he won it? and while it's no excuse, we have to remember that it's every 4 years the WC, which makes it more difficult to win in general. Another reason why it's as prestigious as it is.

But like I said, it'd be the icing on the top. Other players who are regarded as GOATS also have a few unicorns that they were never able to attain for whatever reason, so if (IF) Messi doesn't win a WC but still lights it up every season at club level and keeps doing what we know only someone as talented as him could do he has every right to be placed as a GOAT.

WC is never icing on the cake.... it's the whole cake lol.  CL is like the mini-me trophy.

It's like track and field athletes winning world championships every year and not the Olympics. You won't be considered great unless you win the olympics.

sportsczy wrote:WC is never icing on the cake.... it's the whole cake lol.  CL is like the mini-me trophy.

It's like track and field athletes winning world championships every year and not the Olympics.  You won't be considered great unless you win the olympics.

I completely disagree with that statement. And in Messi's case, given what he's already won both for team and individually, the WC would be a great way to tie every end but I think he can still go down as the best of all time without it, and he's nowhere near finished playing either.

And I know many non-barca fans who share this sentiment as well.

sportsczy wrote:WC is never icing on the cake.... it's the whole cake lol.  CL is like the mini-me trophy.

It's like track and field athletes winning world championships every year and not the Olympics.  You won't be considered great unless you win the olympics.

R9 is a prime example of why that's not true, he won two World Cups and no CL he is a legend but not GOAT tier.

R9 is a goat tier lol.  Only reason he's not considered a candidate for top goat is because he was injured so many years so he wasn't dominant for long enough. His overall stats aren't at a high enough level compared to Pele for example.

To be goat you need to win the WC and have goat-level stats.  Not just one or the other.

You're competing against guys who have both.

lol r9 won the 94 world cup? only on paper. 02 was good, but he was washed up in comparison to his fenomeno years, not impressive enough for "GOAT tier", presumably that means top 5 or something. Hes done well to be considered top 15 all time considering his injuries at such a young age

sportsczy wrote:R9 is a goat tier lol.  Only reason he's not considered a candidate for top goat is because he was injured so many years and he wasn't dominant for long enough.

To be goat you need to win the WC and have goat-level stats.  Not just one or the other.

You're competing against guys who have both.

That's your definition, and it's a bit subjective. I guess we can just agree to disagree.

Nobody is ever going to catch Pele imo... it's just not going to happen.  He won 3 WCs (Brazil had won non before him) AND he has 680 goals in 720 games with club and 77 goals in 92 games with NT.

Nobody will even get close to that... Messi has already lost the race unless he keeps his scoring pace for another 8 years AND wins the next 3 WCs

sportsczy wrote:R9 is a goat tier lol.  Only reason he's not considered a candidate for top goat is because he was injured so many years so he wasn't dominant for long enough.  His overall stats aren't at a high enough level compared to Pele for example.

To be goat you need to win the WC and have goat-level stats.  Not just one or the other.

You're competing against guys who have both.

Pele's resume in club football isnt as impressive as the likes of Messi or Di Stefano. club football is a higher level of football than international. When Messi is done with his career his club achievements will in all likelihood be unmatched, that alone puts him up there in the goat tier, if he won the WC on top of that, he would be the undisputed GOAT bar the small minority of people that will always think Pele Maradona or even CR is better.

Just like Pele is never going to catch Messi in club level, not going to happen. And 70% or 470 of those 640 goals came in regional leagues.

sportsczy wrote:WC is never icing on the cake.... it's the whole cake lol.  CL is like the mini-me trophy.

It's like track and field athletes winning world championships every year and not the Olympics.  You won't be considered great unless you win the olympics.

A lot of Great players never won the WC. Actually there are more legendary players who didn't win it than the ones who did.

Before mid 2000's People who casually watch football would only remmenber the winner. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people know about Zidane's header in 1998 and see him as a goat but won't be able to tell you who were the main players of the brasilian side ( rivaldo, ronaldo, cafu ..). Same goes for 2002. The casual fan don't even know that Diego lead Argentina to 2 straights finals , which is quite an achievement.

But i think we are in an era where even the casual football fan can easily watch games and be more informed.

Being a GOAT is also about perception and what people say about you. Most people remenber Cameroon 1990 and roger Milla or Senegal 2002 and diouf. Has Ghana 2010 done what they did in the 90's or early 2000's they would have been more praised and Gyan a Milla 2.0. But they aren't because people don't judge them based on that WC only whereas they did in Cameroon and Senegal's case.

Bénin wrote:The casual fan don't even know that Diego lead Argentina to 2 straights finals , which is quite an achievement.

Even avid fan don't always know that it was Goycochea and the defense which actually lead Maradona to WC90 final. And that they won WC78 but failed in WC82 when Maradona was included.

Pele club level stats is not as impressive????  you guys are noobs:

680 goals in 720 games
2 Copa Libertadores (which was the CL of that era)
11 Paolista trophies
5 Brazilian cups

And believe me... It's not La Liga where it's a two horse race.  You had Fluminese, Cruseiro, Palmeiras, Vasco da Gama and others competing with Santos in Brazil and all the other SA clubs in Copa Libertadores.

You peeps have little idea of what you speak.

Harmonica wrote:

Bénin wrote:The casual fan don't even know that Diego lead Argentina to 2 straights finals , which is quite an achievement.

Even avid fan don't always know that it was Goycochea and the defense which actually lead Maradona to WC90 final.

sportsczy wrote:Pele club level stats is not as impressive????  you guys are noobs:

680 goals in 720 games
2 Copa Libertadores (which was the CL of that era)
11 Paolista trophies
5 Brazilian cups

And believe me... It's not La Liga where it's a two horse race.  You had Fluminese, Cruseiro, Palmeiras, Vasco da Gama and others competing with Santos in Brazil and all the other SA clubs in Copa Libertadores.

You peeps have little idea of what you speak.

 Messi would need to score another 300 goals to equal Pele at club level

sportsczy wrote:Pele club level stats is not as impressive????  you guys are noobs:

680 goals in 720 games
2 Copa Libertadores (which was the CL of that era)
11 Paolista trophies
5 Brazilian cups

And believe me... It's not La Liga where it's a two horse race.  You had Fluminese, Cruseiro, Palmeiras, Vasco da Gama and others competing with Santos in Brazil and all the other SA clubs in Copa Libertadores.

You peeps have little idea of what you speak.

Are you actually an insane person?

70% in regional tournaments, 1 full libertadores, 1 Libertadores from the semi-finals, half national and regional cups.

3 CL's and 6 Spanish leagues >> 2 Libertadores + 1 national league in US.

Harmonica wrote:

Bénin wrote:The casual fan don't even know that Diego lead Argentina to 2 straights finals , which is quite an achievement.

Even avid fan don't always know that it was Goycochea and the defense which actually lead Maradona to WC90 final. And that they won WC78 but failed in WC82 when Maradona was included.

lol so is it Pep's tactics that made Messi what he is now ??

Bénin wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

Bénin wrote:The casual fan don't even know that Diego lead Argentina to 2 straights finals , which is quite an achievement.

Even avid fan don't always know that it was Goycochea and the defense which actually lead Maradona to WC90 final. And that they won WC78 but failed in WC82 when Maradona was included.

lol so is it Pep's tactics that made Messi what he is now ??

Umm, what?