RonaldoGreatestEverRM wrote:Same why i don't understand people give pele credit for his 62 WC, same goes for Ronaldo in 94 and Messi's CL in 2006... they didn't play a role..

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpmtk6_lionel-messi-vs-chelsea-2006_sport

Nivash wrote:In the year CR broke the Liga goalscoring record but doesn't win the league, Messi wins because it's about your contribution to the team's success.
The next year, Cristina is important to Madrid winning the Liga, Messi wins because of his individual exploits.

Ballon D'Or is cool kid accolade.

Winning the UCL+LIGA =/= just Liga!
Also in 2010/11, its true that Cristiano won the pichichi but Messi was UCL topscorer and scored more goals and assists in all comps.

In 2010/11:
Messi 57 goals and 30 assists in official games for club and country vs 56 goals and 16 assists fro cristiano.

In 2010/11:
Barcelona and Messi hammered Real Madrid with a 5-0, they won 2-0 at the bernabeu with Messi scoring unbelievable goals!

- Overall Individual performance, stats and trophies Messi was ahead of Cristiano in 2010/11. Its not debatable!

If Messi picked Spain over Argentina in 2005 and won the WC with Spain in 2010. Would this make him a better player than he is now?

Pele and Beckenbauer had the chance to play for great clubs and NTs. This is why they won it all!

Messi still has the chance to win a world cup (2014 or 2018), winning it will add to his reputation but IMO by the end of his career he'll be considered the best ever by most of football fans (with or without a world cup).

Khaled wrote:

Nivash wrote:In the year CR broke the Liga goalscoring record but doesn't win the league, Messi wins because it's about your contribution to the team's success.
The next year, Cristina is important to Madrid winning the Liga, Messi wins because of his individual exploits.

Ballon D'Or is cool kid accolade.

Winning the UCL+LIGA =/= just Liga!
Also in 2010/11, its true that Cristiano won the pichichi but Messi was UCL topscorer and scored more goals and assists in all comps.

In 2010/11:
Messi 57 goals and 30 assists in official games for club and country vs 56 goals and 16 assists fro cristiano.

In 2010/11:
Barcelona and Messi hammered Real Madrid with a 5-0, they won 2-0 at the bernabeu with Messi scoring unbelievable goals!

- Overall Individual performance, stats and trophies Messi was ahead of Cristiano in 2010/11. Its not debatable!

"Cristina" how mature...

Raw Statistics only=Messi.

The better player is the one who plays better in big games.

2011-2013 El Clasico League&Cup=8 Games:

Messi 3 Goals, scored in 2 of those 8 Games.

Ronaldo 7 Goals, scored in 5 of those 8 Games.

And, in the 2013 league game in the bernabeu, Messi scored, yet Ronaldo who came on in the 60th minute outplayed Messi by a wide margin, with sizzling dribblings, great free kicks and just being a constant energizer, Messi was anonymous again.


CL SF's 2012&2013: Ronaldo 3 Goals, Messi 0 Goals.

Ronaldo, over the last 2 seasons from 2011-2013 has clearly been the dominant force in the big games. Messi can go off against the little spanish clubs as much as he wants.

Try again later khaled

eelir wrote:

Ganso wrote:I was going to get in the debate again, but i wont, its impossible to debate considering some people just ignore the fact that lifting a WC is the highest place a football player can be at, (its not even debatable) and fans just ignore it for Messi.Messi is already one of the top 3 players of all time, but he isnt the goat.Pele was a ridiculous footballer and won it,Maradona was a ridiculous footballer and won it, Messi is a ridiculous footballer but still hasnt and therefore he is behind them.

inb4 "by that logic Gerd Muller is better than Messi"

sure Nt football does not have the quality it used to have, but the title is the only thing that people will remember of

Based on your logic there is never going to be a goat from say Albania, because they are so small country that they can never have a team that does something worthy, even though they theoretically can have the best player that ever played the game? I mean how many times in player's career a WC happens?

Messi is NOT FROM ALBANIA. Obviously we would understand that as reason enough!
These messi fans going on crazy hypotheticals to make their point, open your eyes, Messi's got a legit team at argentinia!

Playing better in big games doesn't mean you were better during the season.
Scoring in a game doesn't mean you were better during the game.

Messi had the same amount of assists more in those Clasico's and was better all around. Messi was better in the big games, small games, more clutch. Better pretty much every possible way, individually.

CL>World Cup, okay. So that means Rabah Madjer>Kempes.

And according to some of the arguements in the thread, Mario Jardel deserved to win the Balon D Or

RonaldoGreatestEverRM wrote:

Khaled wrote:

Nivash wrote:In the year CR broke the Liga goalscoring record but doesn't win the league, Messi wins because it's about your contribution to the team's success.
The next year, Cristina is important to Madrid winning the Liga, Messi wins because of his individual exploits.

Ballon D'Or is cool kid accolade.

Winning the UCL+LIGA =/= just Liga!
Also in 2010/11, its true that Cristiano won the pichichi but Messi was UCL topscorer and scored more goals and assists in all comps.

In 2010/11:
Messi 57 goals and 30 assists in official games for club and country vs 56 goals and 16 assists fro cristiano.

In 2010/11:
Barcelona and Messi hammered Real Madrid with a 5-0, they won 2-0 at the bernabeu with Messi scoring unbelievable goals!

- Overall Individual performance, stats and trophies Messi was ahead of Cristiano in 2010/11. Its not debatable!

"Cristina" how mature...

Raw Statistics only=Messi.

The better player is the one who plays better in big games.

2011-2013 El Clasico League&Cup=8 Games:

Messi 3 Goals, scored in 2 of those 8 Games.

Ronaldo 7 Goals, scored in 5 of those 8 Games.

And, in the 2013 league game in the bernabeu, Messi scored, yet Ronaldo who came on in the 60th minute outplayed Messi by a wide margin, with sizzling dribblings, great free kicks and just being a constant energizer, Messi was anonymous again.


CL SF's 2012&2013: Ronaldo 3 Goals, Messi 0 Goals.

Ronaldo, over the last 2 seasons from 2011-2013 has clearly been the dominant force in the big games. Messi can go off against the little spanish clubs as much as he wants.

Try again later khaled

hahaha okay :-) I really don't have time to waste on this silly argument. I already said what I had to say.

Khaled just copy this whenever somebody says Cronaldo deserved something

Messi & Cronaldo La Liga 2011-2012

Goals:

Messi 50 (10 penalty)
Cronaldo 46 (12 penalty)

Accuracy:

Messi 5.5 shots/ goal
Cronaldo 6.9 shots/ goal

Individuality of goals:

Messi, 22/50 or 44% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
Cronaldo, 35/46 or 80% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

Assists: (transfermarkt.co.uk FIFA rules)

Messi 20
Cronaldo 12

Creativity:

Messi 56 throughballs, 92 key passes (resulting in a shot)
Cronaldo 19 throughballs, 60 key passes (resulting in a shot)

Build up play:

Messi 176 dribbless
Cronaldo 73 dribbless

Lost posession:

Messi 96 dispossessed + 61 turnovers = 157 times
Cronaldo 79 dispossessed + 86 turnovers = 165 times

MoM (whoscored.com)

Messi 24
Cronaldo 15

Importance of stats:

Here is La Liga 11-12 without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals, and assists:



http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

Messi got points for the team in 15 games, 35 overall.
Cronaldo got points for the team in 11 games, 25 overall.

Messi & Cronaldo Champions League 11-12

Goals:

Messi 14 (4 penalty)
Cronaldo 10 (2 penalty)

Accuracy:

Messi 4.5 shots/goal
Cronaldo 7.4 shots/goal

Individuality of goals:

Messi, 6/14 or 43% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
Cronaldo, 4/10 or 40% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

Assists (transfermarkt.co.uk wider rules)

Messi 7
Cronaldo 3

Creativity

Messi 14 throughballs, 32 key passes (resulting a shot)
Cronaldo 3 throughballs, 25 key passes (resulting a shot)

Build Up Play

Messi 44 dribbles
Cronaldo 29 dribbles

Lost Possession

Messi 40 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 59
Cronaldo 20 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 39

MoM (whoscored.com)

Messi 8
Cronaldo 3

Importance of statistics: (without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals and assists)

1. Milan 14
2. Barcelona 10
3. Plzen 6
4. BATE 2

1. Real Madrid 16
2. Lyon 9
3. Ajax 8
4. Dinamo 0

Messi gave 6 points in 3 group games and would have lost 1st position. Would have lost against Milan.
Cronaldo gave 2 points in 1 group game. Would have lost against ZSKA.

Messi against top opposition 11-12

Real Madrid 3+5@6
Valencia 4+3@4
Malaga 6+0@2
Atletico Madrid 4+1@2
Milan 3+3@4
Leverkusen 6+1@2
Chelsea 0+1@2
Porto 1+1@1
Santos 2+0@1

Overall 29+15@24 against top opposition, 1.83 G+A per game.
Overall 73+35@60 against everyone, 1.80 G+A per game.

Cronaldo against top opposition 11-12

Barcelona 4+0@6
Valencia 1+0@2
Malaga 3+1@4
Atletico Madrid 5+2@2
Lyon 2+1@2
Ajax 1+1@1
Dynamo 0+0@1
ZSKA 3+0@2
Bayern Munich 2+1@2

Overall 21+6@22 against top opposition, 1.23 G+A per game.
Overall 60+15@55 against everyone, 1.36 G+A per game.

Messi was actually better against top opposition, Cronaldo unsurprisingly worse. The same applies pretty much in their careers, Cronaldo is a big game flop.

Players scoring their own penalties 11-12 shows the difference of quality of players and teams in general



- Higuain and Benzema were actually more effective than Cronaldo and were involved in 1.3x goals more than Cronaldo.
- Messi were carrying Barcelona, and were involved in 1.6x goals more than Xavi and Fabregas together, 1.48x more than Cronaldo.
- As a team Madrid were better, as a player Messi was far, far ahead of others. And Ballon d'Or is a invidual prize, not a team prize.

10-11 compared to 11-12

2010-2011
Messi: Supercopa, La Liga, Uefa Champions League, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer, 53+28 1.56 (G+A)/90min

> most definitely

Cronaldo: Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, European Golden Boot, 53+18 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2011-2012
Messi: Supercopa, Uefa Supercup, Fifa Club World Cup, Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer/ Top Assister, European Golden Boot/ Top Assister, bunch of records + WR of scoring in one season club and club + international (73 and 82), 73+36 or 1.86 (G+A)/90min and 82+41

> most definitely

Cronaldo: La Liga, 60+15 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min and 66+17

----------------------------------

Cronaldo actually was just as effective as last season, but Messi was better in last season, and even better this season.

2010-2011
Messi 1.56 (G+A)/90min
Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2011-2012
Messi 1.86 (G+A)/90min
Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

2012 Stats



Every which way you look, you see Messi's superioirity.

Harmonica wrote:Playing better in big games doesn't mean you were better during the season.
Scoring in a game doesn't mean you were better during the game.

Messi had the same amount of assists more in those Clasico's and was better all around. Messi was better in the big games, small games, more clutch. Better pretty much every possible way, individually.

Okay, Messi was better against small teams, Ronaldo was better against big teams.
I'l take Ronaldo... don't even try to deny it, he outplayed Messi in 6 of those matches, arguably 7, but i'd call that 2-2 a wash..

Cronaldo wasn't better against big teams.

Let me just say whoscored is horribly wrong on those dispossed&turnover stats, Messi lost the ball 5+ times every game in the league this year, yet they have him at the 2 range?

Harmonica wrote:Cronaldo wasn't better against big teams.

What i thought, just ignoring their SF games and el clasico's... typical

Harmonica... where valencia/malaga/lyon/leverkusen/zska/ajax/porto/SANTOS/etc. count as big teams... jeez

The conversation just ended in those stats, sorry.

Those stats ignore every bit of context... you are just as bad as his "91 goals nuff said" fans..

He is the best player I have ever seen, at least the most decisive. Greatness =/= best. In terms of efficiency, productivity and game changing there has probably never been an individual like Messi. Now greatness is debatable. What are we defining greatness as? Popularity, enduring in public memory? Most trophies? All this polemics is just for the couch football fans that have nothing to do with the game to have something to discuss. Football is a team sport.

This greatest of all time BS mentality has probably been influenced by other sports like basketball etc Messi is by far the best player in this era and for me the single best attacking forward since Pele if I'm honest. The World Cup is not as big anymore, do people know why? In the olden days (sports pls... ) When televison coverage of club football was nowhere near the level it was today, the World Cup was the onluy international tournamenyt that was covered to any sort of large deghree so it made and broke players reputations/careers. Today, with the over exposure of football the World Cup for me has taken a back seat to the champions League, a League that Messi has been top goal scorer in for 4 seasons in a row, a league that Messi at the age of 26 is close to being an all tim top scorer, I mean statistically Messi is already the greatest, but I don't like using stats, I like using my Eyes (Dani pls).

Whether Messi wins the world cup is irrelevant. Playing well over 5-6 games (If that) every 4 years, does not compare to being stupidly consistent week in week out for 50+ games for over 5 years. It just doesn't hold much water for me. The fact that Maradona made his name from the world cup adds credence to my earlier statement. Football is much harder than it is now. I' not even going into the he should carry a team to the world cup BS, the fact is, he was the main star for the best club team I have and will probably ever see in my lifetime. Maradona for me was the most naturally talented footballer in my lifetime but he let off the field issues strip him off what he could have been, I would say that he operated at probably 30% of his ability at Barcelona and 80% at Naples. My conclusion is Messi does not need a WC at all. He is up there with the best and with orr without a world cup that depends on a team performance, that will never change.

O and for those saying Ronaldo is a bigger game player than Messi, please get a grip, he is not and will always be a big game flop for me. Accept it and move on.

jibers wrote:He is the best player I have ever seen, at least the most decisive. Greatness =/= best. In terms of efficiency, productivity and game changing there has probably never been an individual like Messi. Now greatness is debatable. What are we defining greatness as? Popularity, enduring in public memory? Most trophies? All this polemics is just for the couch football fans that have nothing to do with the game to have something to discuss. Football is a team sport.

This greatest of all time BS mentality has probably been influenced by other sports like basketball etc Messi is by far the best player in this era and for me the single best attacking forward since Pele if I'm honest. The World Cup is not as big anymore, do people know why? In the olden days (sports pls... ) When televison coverage of club football was nowhere near the level it was today, the World Cup was the onluy international tournamenyt that was covered to any sort of large deghree so it made and broke players reputations/careers. Today, with the over exposure of football the World Cup for me has taken a back seat to the champions League, a League that Messi has been top goal scorer in for 4 seasons in a row, a league that Messi at the age of 26 is close to being an all tim top scorer, I mean statistically Messi is already the greatest, but I don't like using stats, I like using my Eyes (Dani pls).

Whether Messi wins the world cup is irrelevant. Playing well over 5-6 games (If that) every 4 years, does not compare to being stupidly consistent week in week out for 50+ games for over 5 years. It just doesn't hold much water for me. The fact that Maradona made his name from the world cup adds credence to my earlier statement. Football is much harder than it is now. I' not even going into the he should carry a team to the world cup BS, the fact is, he was the main star for the best club team I have and will probably ever see in my lifetime. Maradona for me was the most naturally talented footballer in my lifetime but he let off the field issues strip him off what he could have been, I would say that he operated at probably 30% of his ability at Barcelona and 80% at Naples. My conclusion is Messi does not need a WC at all. He is up there with the best and with orr without a world cup that depends on a team performance, that will never change.

O and for those saying Ronaldo is a bigger game player than Messi, please get a grip, he is not and will always be a big game flop for me. Accept it and move on.

I know we've never spoke.. but your my idol you know
Took everything i was thinking and presented it perfectly

jibers

jibers wrote:He is the best player I have ever seen, at least the most decisive. Greatness =/= best. In terms of efficiency, productivity and game changing there has probably never been an individual like Messi. Now greatness is debatable. What are we defining greatness as? Popularity, enduring in public memory? Most trophies? All this polemics is just for the couch football fans that have nothing to do with the game to have something to discuss. Football is a team sport.

This greatest of all time BS mentality has probably been influenced by other sports like basketball etc Messi is by far the best player in this era and for me the single best attacking forward since Pele if I'm honest. The World Cup is not as big anymore, do people know why? In the olden days (sports pls... ) When televison coverage of club football was nowhere near the level it was today, the World Cup was the onluy international tournamenyt that was covered to any sort of large deghree so it made and broke players reputations/careers. Today, with the over exposure of football the World Cup for me has taken a back seat to the champions League, a League that Messi has been top goal scorer in for 4 seasons in a row, a league that Messi at the age of 26 is close to being an all tim top scorer, I mean statistically Messi is already the greatest, but I don't like using stats, I like using my Eyes (Dani pls).

Whether Messi wins the world cup is irrelevant. Playing well over 5-6 games (If that) every 4 years, does not compare to being stupidly consistent week in week out for 50+ games for over 5 years. It just doesn't hold much water for me. The fact that Maradona made his name from the world cup adds credence to my earlier statement. Football is much harder than it is now. I' not even going into the he should carry a team to the world cup BS, the fact is, he was the main star for the best club team I have and will probably ever see in my lifetime. Maradona for me was the most naturally talented footballer in my lifetime but he let off the field issues strip him off what he could have been, I would say that he operated at probably 30% of his ability at Barcelona and 80% at Naples. My conclusion is Messi does not need a WC at all. He is up there with the best and with orr without a world cup that depends on a team performance, that will never change.

O and for those saying Ronaldo is a bigger game player than Messi, please get a grip, he is not and will always be a big game flop for me. Accept it and move on.

Fantastic post

You guys are footy noobs...  i prefer to talk about footy history with peeps that have watched it for longer

When you say "best i have ever seen"... probably talking 10-15 years max

Messi could become the goat. But without great WC performances, he won't. He is king of GL though. That should make him feel good

King of the world according to the most 'footy' lovers with 4 Ballon d'Or! All heil the best playerr ever.

Collblanc wrote:King of the world according to the most 'footy' lovers with 4 Ballon d'Or! All heil the best playerr ever.

Fantastic post.

anti-messi's got a whooping in this thread

sportsczy wrote:You guys are footy noobs...  i prefer to talk about footy history with peeps that have watched it for longer

When you say "best i have ever seen"... probably talking 10-15 years max

Messi could become the goat.  But without great WC performances, he won't.  He is king of GL though.  That should make him feel good

As jibers said Greatness =/= Best .

I'd like to know who's the Best player you've ever seen ?

For me , it's Messi .

sportsczy wrote:CL is more difficult than WC????  

The WC is more prestigious, but the CL is harder because the quality of football is simply higher. In the WC teams are unbalanced, if a country has an awful GK they can't go out and purchase a better one. There are several super-teams in club football but only one or two in NT football. In the WC coaches don't get to have their team together for 8 months in order to work on what works and what doesn't before reaching a final. They get only 1 month before the WC and during international breaks they rarely get more than 2 days with the full squad to train due to traveling constraints. The standard of coaching is also higher: think of who are the top 5 coaches in the world and how many are coaching at NT football. The fact is that coaches see international football as the final step of their career and only do so when they turn 60+, Mourinho and Pep would not even consider international football at this stage in their career.